um my name is Stuart Easton I'm the CEO
one of the founders at transparent
Choice
um and it's it's great to see so many
people joining us and uh people coming
from all around the world Austin Texas
very welcome and um I've got with me
today a couple of guests that I'm I'm
just really really excited about
um you know the topic is about
governance right so it's what is this
crazy governance stuff and uh so the two
speakers uh Ross Garland and Amanda
Oakenfold
um Ross is an author he's done work with
the the British government
um and and help craft various standards
all around ideas and topics of of
governance
um Amanda
um I've known Amanda we were just
working it out and you know we've known
each other on a few years right and
um Amanda is is
um a passionate advocate for governance
and on the first ever
I was going to say webinar it was
actually a podcast that we did together
I said something like you know we've got
a theory over here that prioritization
is at the heart of a lot of project
failure and Amanda case shot right back
at me said no look governance in general
is the cause of all project failure
right and so you know at that point I
fell in love and you know we've been
we've been governance buddies ever since
um and so Amanda works at IBM where she
she basically runs everything and at
least on the delivery side you know
she's she's gonna correct me in a minute
but um you know she she she's an
incredibly accomplished
um uh major program large program
manager portfolio manager and uh her
nickname is the mechanic because her
specialty is uh sort of coming in and
fixing things that are broken
and that's really where she's coming
from with us this comment about
governance and why it's so important so
um uh guys is there anything that I've
missed in the the intro that you would
like like to share okay and and if not
we're gonna we're gonna jump in and
um and get started
no but I'm just looking at Katie hi
Katie
um he's Keen to look at implementing
portfolio governance in a large
organization so I think this is going to
get really exciting
um personal personal thoughts on that
just kicking off is is a governance
artisan
so there's not a one solution that will
fit everybody so I'm going to really
love to unpack
um background if she's got a chat
actions
brilliant well so so I've got a few I've
got a few questions that I want to throw
at you you guys but again
um uh knowing knowing the knowing the
rest of the panel I I I assume that
we're not going to get through all the
questions we're going to go off down
various little rabbit holes I'm gonna
have some fun
um so let's let's kick off with
um you know to start with you know why
should we care about governance and and
what even is this this crazy governance
thing and and Ross you've you've kind of
literally written the book on this so
why don't you why do you kick off
yes sure
um it's it's such a good question
actually because
um
interestingly if you had a group of
people in a room which we more or less
do and ask them all to describe what
project management was you'd basically
get the same answer from most people
everyone knows what project management
is but if you ask them about project
governance that's one of the issues we
Face everyone comes up with a different
view of what it actually looks like
so when I first started working in this
area which was well at least 15 years
ago now
um
I arrived at what I consider to be a
very simple approach to governance which
um is that project governance or P3
governance is about
um the framework that enables efficient
and effective decision making on
projects programs and portfolios and
when I say A framework
um it's the the framework's basically
got three components the first component
is the structure that you put in place
the Committees and so forth how they
relate to one another what their terms
of reference are
the second component is the people who
populate
um those committees what their
accountabilities are and importantly how
you choose and how you get the right
people in the right positions and the
third component of course is
documentation because if you put rubbish
in you get rubbish out so what's the
documentation they need to be able to
make the right decisions in that
framework so that's how I look at it
it's just the framework for Effective
decision making
and Amanda why why does that even matter
right I mean it all sounds no offense
Ross but it all sounds a little bit dry
and boring right so why does it so why
does it feel yeah come on it's 10
o'clock at night here yeah I'm not even
gonna argue he's I complete agreeance
um I I often see uh one thing I I just
dislike a lot is and I'll get to the the
white matters in a sec is that you see
government governance equals project
management it's just humans and it's it
I I jump up and down uh it is decision
making it is how you structure your
decision making the strength of that
decision making you simply just say to
Ash uh in the chat uh who he he's he's
just uh I love it Ash thank you he's
saying it's one fact of what about um
planning well how do you make the
decisions in planning governance is how
you make those decisions
um anyone who who knows me sort of in
the ANZ area
sorry I'm I'm a program recovery person
um at the heartbeat so I come in and
recover people's disasters
um from project management perspective
and the way you always recover is uh
leadership first governance
Communications including reporting
and after that it's tools and this is
how I'm getting to why it's so important
um most people come in and look at tools
they think they can they can fix this
this this one the the schedules the logs
um oh if we fix that that'll then we'll
we'll be able to fix the communications
the reporting
um the way we which we engage uh and and
they try to push it up bottom up and
that's just not true uh logic is already
saying that if if you're trying to
leverage tools yet your information
that's feeding those tools and the
decisions feeding the information that's
feeding those tools down this side is
wrong if you try to push it from the
bottom up and you go tools to
Communications well those Communications
are instantly going to feed a governance
system that you put in place with dirty
data for dirty decisions and then it
becomes circular so and then we'll push
up and if you have and look we can't
really really changing your leadership
can be difficult particularly if you're
in a perspective in a position of
recovery because sometimes I I'll call
it sometimes that people are in the
wrong place and the leadership
um I was going to go back to our great
topic of choice on on times there the
Trump analogy
um but sometimes people are just in the
wrong roles and sometimes you can't
change that leadership so that means we
come back down to governance and like
Ross said putting that framework around
the decision-making process to give the
guard rails and the bumpers by which to
support those decisions and then move
from there but you certainly that's why
it comes back being important
yeah and
and and so one of the things that that I
find really interesting is if you look
at
um so I I so if anybody's here in the UK
on on in the UK
um tomorrow's project challenge in
London the the conference in London uh
Ross are you going to be there am I
going to see you there no I'm not I'm
I'm getting conferenced out at the
moment
um
it is yeah
yeah no no not feeling so so so I'm I'm
talking tomorrow and this is one of the
slides I'm just going to share one of
the slides that
um uh that I'll be using tomorrow uh
hopefully you can see see this one so so
this is this is kind of a chat this is
PMI also the pulse of the profession
every year and everyone has a version of
this chart right yeah well and the
important thing here is the you know
this Top Line is how many projects
actually deliver the intended business
result because at the end of the day
that's that's actually what matters
that's all that matters
and yeah it's it sort of floats around
between sort of 60 and 70 and it hasn't
really moved
right and and this is this is why
governance matters actually because if
you if you imagine you got into your car
in the morning and and it only got you
to work 70 of the time you would do
something about that 70 isn't good
enough and the the PMI did a little bit
of research into sort of the top
performing
pmos and they they achieve 90 right so
that that's about it 30-ish percent
Improvement in performance right and the
difference between the best and the rest
is is that the best do they do project
management sure but they also focus on
all of that portfolio level decision
making and and the governance layer can
I I think Ash and I are going to become
the best friends because you can if
you're watching this in the chat
um that's your Legend uh governing body
often responding late ignoring PM's
options to fix and move forward so this
is this is like when I was thinking
about this topic today
um it really yes we can put free you're
right Ash we can put Frameworks in place
we can put processes in place we can but
we've still got to work as project
managers and I don't think we talk about
it enough our soft management skills
um the because we're still working with
humans and they have innate uh drivers
um things like greed power influence and
these things are aspects that you can't
mechanize you can't process at your way
out of you have to start thinking about
the politics thinking about how someone
Works how someone responds what their
personal drivers are
um so you're on the money Ash I actually
agree with you there that is a difficult
um part of our job but it's our job
um I I often flippantly say use muffins
uh Foods at the heart of every meeting
and it's amazing how quickly you can get
them there I have at times locked almost
locked people in a meeting until we get
a decision to leave and had to be quite
brutal
um in regard to being able to move
forward within time frames
um
has anyone I can put it out I'm gonna
I'm taking over your old too Stuart have
either of you have any experiences where
you're actually working with the people
within that framework
how how do you get the Rogue leader to
turn up make the decision that you
require them to make
yeah so sometimes I find though that um
there's Rogue leaders and Rogue leaders
like there's always bad eggs around
which make life for everyone
um sometimes I think in governance
structures people just don't understand
what is expected of them uh the
organization's not clear about the
accountabilities or their
responsibilities in respect of a project
so like sometimes you'll get project
sponsors
and they don't really understand that
they're supposed to be there with the
hand on the tiller for the entire
project from start to finish they simply
don't get that and um
Amanda I think there's another side to
this as well right because there's the
motivation
right so so if you if you I'm going to
use a really horrible metaphor right but
if you if you whip a dog often enough
right that dog's gonna shy away from you
all the time yeah and and the problem is
that historically you know the
executives experience of project
delivery is appalling right that dog's
been whipped again and again and again
and and I saw I I forget exactly where
it was I'll try and dig it out after
this after the session at some point and
share it with everyone but I saw a
report recently and it was it was
something like 70 percent of of execs uh
this was specifically about it projects
assumed that the project was doomed
before it even began right so so so why
are they going to turn if the Project's
doomed why why are they going to turn up
to your meeting so I think there's
there's something there about it's not
just knowledge and and
awareness I think there's just a trust
issue uh there's a there's an issue
around accountability and
um organizations quite often especially
if they're not delivering projects on
you know um um constantly on time and on
budget and so forth
they often take a very negative view of
accountability and that that view is
blame making somebody accountable is
knowing who to blame if and when it goes
wrong they have the completely wrong
approach to accountability because the
concept of accountability is about
empowering somebody so if you make
somebody accountable what it means in
the organization is that everybody knows
who's accountable for the project and
therefore when that person starts making
decisions they're expecting it they're
expecting them to go forward and make
decisions they're expecting them to
shake things up
um but too often you get organizations
that don't have a mature view of
accountability and so you end up with
this terrible blame game and it comes
back to what you're saying Amanda which
is that they're just whipped
so I often for Recovery I often walk in
and articulate very clearly we have a no
blame culture in any recovery process
um I want red I want someone to feel
empowered to come up and say we have a
problem
and
setting that tone at the very top which
does come back to your leadership
um pre-governance I'm trying to make
sure we we articulate that setting that
tone at the top uh that everyone feels
safe uh to come up and say when things
are wrong that red is great we want red
and that was a really difficult thing in
one of the last projects they they shied
away from actually I'm not sure if
there's anyone on this thought um call
who's heard the story before and I
apologize but we were running a Telco
CRM upgrade
because we were actually it was for the
white and yellow pages back in the day
for Australia and we because of the
print Cycles we only had a two-week
window to go live
um in the year so any any delay outside
that that window uh would would put us
back a year now we found out that for
some reason uh through the reporting
system we were seeing green things are
going great testing was fine it's on
track but if you went down and actually
spoke to the guys like this poor the
Elite Test lead was out the front having
a smoke about 30 times a day like
stressed beyond outside when when
smoking was fashionable
um
outside looked like a drowned rat just
uh he said you know our our defects are
high we're not getting the pastor and
I'm saying well hold it there's a
disconnect what's going on
um it actually came down to uh a
romantic Affair between the one of the
test leads and the person doing the
reporting who wanted who changed it to
Green because they she didn't want the
romance person
um in in you the boyfriend could always
say
um to be rolled off the program so
thought that was the way by which to
um not show red because red was deemed
as bad and we had to very quickly unpack
that and lean into testing to get those
defects passed through before we made it
um but it's very interesting the
perception red is not bad and the way we
use our governance structure to approach
those um problems is really important so
like trying to articulate that's why I'm
saying when it comes to governance it's
not a one-size-fits all we can't roll
outer framework for everybody across
project management globally that says
this is what will work for you it has to
be an artisan approach and you have to
call in on people across our community
our PM Community to help develop a lot
of the time to look at what works and
what doesn't
um
thanks Alberto I'm going to say hi and
just watching the the chat there
um and it depends on what type of
projects you've got going as well so
very important to look at it it
governance more from that Artisan
approach than just a solid
and and so I want to pick up on that
idea that it's not one size fits all and
try and tie it back to I'm not quite
sure we're quite bottomed out what it is
right so so Ross I want to come across
to you because up above your right
shoulder on my left is is the other shot
there you go up there is the book right
this is the textbook for the for the
certification right
uh yeah
you're an agent put together and in in
there so so you know I have a reputation
for being the guy that reads the
executive summary of a book and thinks
I've read the whole book but but I've
actually read the book
and there was no executive summary
Stewarts yeah I know you tricked me you
treat me I was I kept reading going is
this the end of the exact summary yeah
uh the uh the um so one of the things
that you did in the book that I really
liked was that you you don't kind of say
this is how you do it you say here are
some principles so so talk us through
what some of those principles are and
maybe that'll help us understand kind of
what what governance is or what it could
be
yeah sure
um
in terms of the principles
um I should point out that both myself
and my co-author Adrian
Adrian Maury
um we come from a consultancy background
so when you come from a consultancy
background and it sounds very much like
your background as well Amanda when you
walk into a client you can't go in
spouting the philosophy of governance
you have to go in and say these are the
changes you need to make and this is why
you have to be able to support it
and so when we wrote the book
we knew it had to be practical but we
weren't capable of writing anything but
a practical book anyway because that
that's the type of business we're in
but we also knew it couldn't be
prescriptive and the way to not be
prescriptive is to have it principles
based and so we headed down the
principal's route but we wanted the
principles to be sufficiently
um specific if you like so that people
could use them to build their own
governance Frameworks so having said
that
so I'll just give you a flavor of some
of the principles
um we start with really basic things
like treat change differently from
business as usual so when you've got
governance Arrangements the reason you
have a project board is that everybody
knows that while the org chart can do
all sorts of good things you know it's
the way businesses organize themselves
business as usual it's no good when it
comes to a project because it hits
people a project impacts people across
the organization so consequently you
have to bring them together in a board
and yet you'll still see everyone I'm
sure the people out there are thinking
yeah we all know this but you have no
idea the number of times I've seen the
project board then which is supposed to
be the decision-making body
a decision is made and you say right
that's great the decisions made and the
project sponsor says to you now I've
just got to get it ratified by my boss
it's got to go off to the boss so all
decisions go the boss no not all
decisions the financial decisions have
to go to the CFO so what they've done is
they've taken a project board and
slotted it back into the old chart the
very thing they're trying to avoid
so that's one principle single point of
accountability for projects and programs
one person accountable and then the
third principle is how do you choose who
that person should be and that's about
focusing on the business your treat your
projects and programs as Investments and
therefore their investments in the
business the business has to be the
people who own the projects and programs
supported of course by the delivery
people you've mentioned earlier
um Stuart about
um when you come up against people who
act badly in the governance space and
there's a classic situation that I've
bumped into many many times
which is that when you talk about
governance you automatic automatically
start talking about accountability
and when you talk about accountability
you're talking about ownership and when
you talk about ownership you're talking
about Turf protection and so when you
come in and the delivery group in the in
the organization is owning businesses
owning projects rather projects and
programs when they should be the
Delivery Agent you know the supplier
representative and you're trying to
explain to them no the business should
own it and you support the business
you're enabling you're enabling the
business you can end up in all sorts of
turf protection issues and that's one of
the major reasons you get pushback when
you're trying to put new governance
Arrangements in places Amanda do you
have any thoughts on that because yeah
that's something you and I have talked
about before right that's what I was
talking about but we still work with
people they've still got politics we've
still got
the the the the thought of power or
influence still plays
um at the table and that is something we
can't avoid but we very rarely talk
about how to manage that
um
and I've just I was about to Ping but I
can say it out loud the other thing I
haven't seen in a long time uh when I
walk into projects is the old terms of
reference that we used to come out with
a solid term of reference for each
governance Forum that articulates the
the clear accountabilities I'm going to
be a bit flippant and say that seems to
have passed away when we started to lean
in more to our agile
uh desires of of and agile in the in the
messed up version which is more flexible
not really pure agile
um so that that same that they want to
do away with some of these structures
um which we have to lean on because
ultimately when it comes down to it if
someone isn't performing against their
against their role well then you've got
to escalate yeah um because it's in the
best interest of the project delivery
um and everyone always has a boss
but you do have to escalate that role
and and I do find a lot of the time
whether it's pmo leaders
um even program directors they do find
it difficult to navigate how to escalate
a steering committee role
um and how that influences that all you
know it will influence my career
um no poor delivery will influence your
career uh keep keep the eye on the prize
not not personalities and and in the
best interest of how you deliver some of
those hard decisions we just have to do
we have to do as project management
professionals
I think
yeah and it's all and it's always about
people at the end of the day right so
you could have Clarity but you've got to
have uh people taking part in that and
and again coming back to this trust
issue you know if oddly enough rush you
were talking about the turf battles
where you know the business is kind of
feeling a little bit like the delivery
team's trying to take over
um sometimes we we see it the other way
around as well where you know if the
delivery team doesn't have a good track
record where the executive is keeping
the distance because they don't want to
be associated with a project that they
think is going to die right and it's
going to get and it's going to tank so
it's it's a it which becomes a
self-fulfilling prophecy yeah it's mad I
mean it's a completely mad point of view
but they're human right and and you know
it's quite a natural thing to to try and
distance yourself from something that
you think is doomed you don't want to be
part of that so so you know how do you
how do you
recommend people approach getting buy-in
to putting good governance in place Ash
was sort of floating an idea earlier in
the chat where he was saying yeah you
know just go in and tell them that if
you know every every minute you delay
this decision it's costing you 40 Grand
or something right
um so so how would how would you guys
recommend approaching that discussion
both at the and and it's sort of at two
levels one level is sort of at the
individual project and project sponsor
kind of level and then the other is sort
of at the organizational level how do we
get it sorted out across the
organization change the culture
I knew you were a fairy with a magic
wand so how do you do that with your
magic wand then Amanda yeah okay I can
tell you lollies and food like muffins
food
it is in the in the heart of this in our
as much as we like to Pretend We're
grown-ups at the very heart of who we
are we are big kids I think everyone
stops growing up in their brain at about
20. I can tell you I I rang My Side
Story I rang my um grandmother who turns
100 this year this is a couple of years
ago and I just said to her how old are
you in your head and she said 23. I said
yes am I so we we all stop our brains at
about 20 something
um I'm sure this will resonate with most
people
everyone else around you also stops at
about 20 something and at the heart of
it
um and
um leaning back on
um just I'm thinking of a recent Energy
company we just did an sap program
recovery for uh you turned up and
everyone was biting everyone it's like
the brothers and sisters would we were
snapping at each other it was highly
stressful they'd been in his design for
well over 12 months couldn't get out of
it
um and so I came in with Bowl I've never
bought so many lollies from Kmart in my
life like I I would fly from Melbourne
to Sydney uh with half my bag full of
those juby snake lollies and
um and what it does is it brings
everybody around a table and people
start to talk and communicate
um I particularly like you you can leave
them at your desk because you know you
you start to get a buzz and you start to
hear what's going wrong uh what's going
right who who's struggling
um where where the like stream we had
three streams of sap implementation over
three products with streams struggling
where the touch points are
um and I know I'm being flippant bring
food it changes though dynamic in in
meetings in in terse meetings
um really feed the bear you know it it
tones them down then you can start to
actually bring out the little tricks you
know guys this is you know we're going
to lean in red is not bad we no longer
have a blame culture we walk into these
meetings and but be prepared to back
people up so if someone starts getting
really passionate you can tone them down
you start becoming the the mediator
um but also in a way that it allows them
to have their frustration because it's
usually a bit of hot
passionate frustration that you're
walking into but my my first trick is
bring food
um phenomenal what it does to the
dynamic of the team and that yeah
Candy's awesome
um
and then I actually had at one point a
ugly mug competition and because
everyone knows me I've usually got a cup
of coffee
what we started little games like that I
had the ugly mug of the week coming into
governance forums and people would turn
up we went shopping at uh like um I
don't know if this relates like so since
Vinnie's
um shots like seconds shops to find the
ugliest mug jug looking thing but people
would come to the governance meetings to
compete about who had the ugliest mug
and I didn't mind what got them in there
I I don't care which game I use to get
them in there the minute they turn up
I've got them in there right and it does
change so I use games I use
um I'm not allowed to I got told off by
HR about bringing Nerf guns in uh just
someone will take an eye out but at one
point we had Nerf guns in in the office
um
anything that you can gamify will change
the dynamic of the culture which will
feed into getting them in those
governance forums and getting them
talking
and from there that's where you start
setting up those guardrails Ross was
talking about so there is a serious side
but don't be
don't be hesitant to use play we are
still all human we just want to have fun
to question I I I always when I lived in
the states I would always uh every time
I came back to the UK I would just bring
literally suitcases for Cadbury's
chocolate back to the states with me and
and I would just do the exact same thing
with Cadbury's chocolate I walk in I'd
walk into the into the developers Zone
and just start literally start throwing
flowers of chocolate around and next
thing everybody's heads up Easton's back
right and and then you've got their
attention and you can have good
conversations
um so so Ross there's a question here
actually which is perfectly timed
actually Malcolm thank you for that
um because you know it feels like we've
been talking a lot about
project governance and how to get you
know project leaders and that project
cultural turnaround so what you know
what's the difference between that and
portfolio governance and program
governments and and what's the
relationship between them
oh I I love the fact that you give me
the easy ones Stuart really yeah yeah
I've given you a chance to shine Ross
okay well look it's um
presumably you know we're we're
understanding what the difference is
between a project and a program
yeah that are we or is that something
that uh is still up for grabs like the
concept is
um with the programs that it's
sufficiently large and complex that it
has a number of um constituent Parts
which are best Runners projects and it's
only by the coordinated
um delivery of those projects together
that you're going to get the benefits
and outcomes that the overall program is
seeking so that's the relationship
between program and projects and of
course you need governance at the
project level if the projects are
sufficiently large but in any respect if
it's a project it certainly needs an
owner
um you know project sponsor so you need
governance at that level and then you
need to have integrated governance
between your project level and your
program level
um and by that I mean everybody knows
what decisions are made at the program
level compared to what's made of the
project level there's a very easy way of
working that out
um and then you've got the portfolio and
the portfolio is the sum it's in the
management of portfolios book isn't it
it's the sum of all the organization's
investments in change meaning all its
projects and programs
um the thing I Like About Management of
portfolios is as it does talk it uses
the word Investments and that's one of
the key things and you you alluded to
this earlier Amanda when you said you
know that conflation between project
governance and project management and
there isn't that there shouldn't be a
completion there because what you're
talking about is
project management manages your project
project governance manages your
investment you're making an investment
in your business and what you're seeking
is for that investment to deliver
outcomes and benefits for the
organization that's a very different
um perspective that you take and it also
has a very different perspective
therefore that you take on the decisions
that the government's bodies make
um you know I often see the situation
where
um you ask for the governance framework
for either an organization or a complex
program
and there's committees everywhere which
is fine because in some cases you know
in in complex like tertiary Hospital
developments for instance I've never
seen so many committees in my life but
they're probably all necessary
it's the decision making that gets
confused because the decision making
should be very simple the decision
making should be straight line informed
by all these other committees because if
you have too many routes for decision
making you're going to end up in a world
full of hurt and so I've gone way off
soon so well no so let me let me just
dive in then so so yeah we're talking
about so the the common theme here right
the way through is and and hopefully
this isn't a big surprise to everyone is
that it's it's actually all about
decision making right and and having
timely decisions and and knowing when
you're bumping up against the guard
rails and trying to avoid hopping over
the guardrails right that's that's what
we're kind of trying to do so so are
those decisions the same at the at the
project level program level portfolio
level so yeah what what are your
thoughts in terms of what what are the
appropriate kinds of decisions people
should be making at the in those three
different forums okay okay you if you
think about
a typical organization that's got a
reasonably sized Capital portfolio you
would have a portfolio committee sitting
at the top in a perfect world portfolio
committee at the top you'd have various
program boards underneath it maybe some
projects underneath it and then below
that you've got projects comprising the
um programs yeah and the question you've
just asked is who makes what decisions
how do you how do you determine who's
making what decisions which is hugely
important isn't it because if you don't
know what the answer is you're either
going to end up with gaps or overlaps if
you get overlaps the people at the
bottom will tell you this happens the
people at the bottom won't make
decisions they keep escalating them
because they know the people upstairs
will make them and if you've got gaps
then you know you've got things that
should be decided on but on and the
situations fairly basic really
if you take if you look at the project
level first consider that you've got a
business case for that particular
project now the project sponsor owns the
project they also therefore have to own
the business case because the business
case describes the project
so what decisions do they make they make
any decision that can have a material
impact on that business case in other
words on the project
that's the decisions made by the project
sponsor and project board
now what that means for the project
manager is that they sit beneath that
they make any decisions that don't have
a material impact on the business case
so if it's not changing things like the
outcomes the benefits the budget the
core assumptions the interdependencies
and so forth if it's not making those
impacts on the business case then it's
uh the project manager can just get on
and get on with their work if it does
change the shape of that project change
the shape of that business case then it
needs to be decided by the project
sponsor
and and then presumably at the program
level you have the analogous situation
so if it's yeah if if it has an impact
on the overall program you would bump it
up yes and and and then the same thing
at the portfolio level but at the
portfolio level is there's a there's
kind of an extra layer of of decision
making there as well I think because
because that's where your author just
you're also deciding what you invest in
right when you're at the when you're
sorry go ahead Amanda no I was going to
say it's not even if as for me at the
portfolio level you're about return on
investment from a business strategy
um it's a it's the the portfolio has a
completely different function
um from what program programs are here
for delivery
um portfolios a hero for a return on
investment for the business if you're
not answering return on investment
um you know front from the from the
portfolio decision making follows the
programs and the timing in which those
programs have to be affected
so distinctly different jobs in my my
brain like a portfolio management is is
it's not about delivery it's it's about
commercial decisions your uh commercial
impact to the business when you're
looking over the horizons of of where
you need to go when you need to do it
whether something's regulatory uh what
is the prioritization you just have to
do it because it's regulatory or do we
do it because you know the business is
about to fall apart
and without without that particular
change the other thing I I find people
forget is a project uh should be and and
I I say this is going to come out like a
very bad analogy but like a virus it it
connects to a a business entity it makes
a fundamental change and then Falls away
um you know we don't run
I think I think people confuse projects
and operations as well
um you don't just run a project as as an
operation
um that's often just a small
program of it it's it's not a
operational
running is people who run that as I call
them initiatives when I walk in and
start to
um break open what people have in their
program portfolio because you see a lot
of initiatives not a lot of and they're
called programs and we mix up the
governance because we haven't been clear
about what an initiative is what a
project is what a program is and what a
portfolio is without that clarity
um you will drive the business to the
ground and and you'll start seeing a lot
of cost overrun
um because it's not managed well
so in my head they're very very clear
and I guess we we've got another webinar
to unpack exactly what that is for some
people yeah portfolios about your
[Music]
I would add to that that there's sort of
I don't know whether you put it in the
portfolio or at the uh more into the
execution level but there's something
that connects the prioritization and
selection with with the scheduling right
because if you if you end up and the
resource availability because if you if
you end up saying yeah these are the top
30 projects but you've actually got
space for 20. then then you've you've
killed your project execution before you
even begin right so it's so it's it's
not just about the the ROI it's also
about deliverability and you know right
sizing everything and making sure that
there's communication communication
between execution and that strategic
level right
um so that so that what the stuff you're
selecting is actually deliverable if
that if that makes sense but I'd like I
like what Amanda said before though the
fact that the portfolio committee needs
to focus on return on investment and not
execution and I'd I'd go further and say
as soon as you see a portfolio committee
dealing with execution matters at the
program or project level it's a red flag
it's an immediately red flag because
what they're doing is they're not doing
their proper job they're diving down
into the detail and that's not what
they're there for different role it's a
strength and portfolio manager to cut
that conversation so that's outside of
scope for you because what what we have
a tendency to do is is let people like
continue to dive down and go into that
rabbit warrant and that and we forget
project managers still and portfolio
managers still the manager of those
outcomes so to be able to have that
strength and and dig in and push back on
the Committees to say okay that's out of
the scope that's not your job the the
other thing you find yeah that's one
issue the other the the other thing you
find particularly in organizations
that don't have a mature project and
program
delivery Arrangement you know they're
quite often in in soft areas like Health
and Social Services
um one of my babies health is fun yes
yes but one of the things you find at
the portfolio level is they still
haven't got it in their mind remember I
said earlier about separating BAU and
change suddenly they're talking about
their BAU activities and you're saying
you're folk you've got to focus on
change and just keep one eye on the BAU
because the change will impact it but
don't start talking about the BAU for
its own sake and they can't they can't
pull themselves out of that mindset and
I was going to say it comes back to
health health is a fun place for me um
purely because it's the only industry
I've found that's actually different a
lot of all the other industry is they
make something they have a commodity
they sell it they have a commodity they
sell it they make profit comes around
Health actually works in a backwards way
and again we'll unpack that one another
day
um but I find uh this is a cultural
thing predominantly in the health
industry but it happens across other
Industries decision by committee
no Siri doesn't understand that either
if you heard that
um decision by committee is is something
I find is is uh probably very Pro
prevalent in in health industry but I
think we've stumbled across it a lot of
times breaking that is actually I find
uh even harder work and lollies don't
help in that in that industry
no that just encourages more people yeah
so you've actually got to really manage
your stakeholders closely it's a heavy
effort on the PM for engagement into
those stakeholders
um prepping people getting them to
understand that they might may not be in
that decision
um even if they want to be because
everyone likes to have an opinion so
that that's probably in a governance
context one of the harder
um you know sort of thing things to
break is that psyche of decision by and
sticking to hard racy hard terms of
reference and sorry not not your job we
love your input but you're not going to
be a decision maker is is often a a
difficult conversation that you just
have to have we're talking about a lot
of difficulties
so so speaking of difficult
conversations there's a little bit of
chat going on in the uh off to the side
here about
um about things like you know when when
projects you know stuff changes the
business case changes the costs go up
the benefits go down sometimes uh the
business case changes right
happens in the government and stack
right at these three levels and let's
keep it nice and simple at those three
levels project program and and strategic
portfolio right so so the business cases
suddenly changed we've discovered that
it's going to be two three times more
expensive than we thought
what happens
well you've had I've gone straight to
scope
you're not going to get a fundamental
change in a business case have there not
been a fundamental change in
in something else I so
when you're saying what happens well I
mean I mean from a governance point of
view so so let's let's not worry about
why there's a change let's just you know
there's a little hypothetical situation
where where the where the business case
you know there's material change in the
business case who makes what decisions
and where does it get escalated to okay
so
um my opinion there that let's say it's
a program business case yeah does that
work for you let's say it's a program
business case and for whatever reason
there needs to be a fundamental change
so to start with it doesn't come out of
the blue doesn't it it doesn't just
happen out of the blue so there's all
sorts of conversations going on that
involve the SRO because they're
accountable for that program and they're
accountable for that business case so if
there's a fundamental change the first
thing they need to do is advise the
portfolio committee that there is a
major issue here and they're working
through it
and the next thing they need to do is
work out and the portfolio office
presumably you know depending upon the
nature of the issue it's either we have
to end the program or we have to do
but you have to then go back to the
business case and work out whether or
not there is a viable outcome
still achievable
given the money that has already been
spent you've burnt a certain amount of
money
um can we get a viable outcome there and
then the portfolio committee has to come
in and if there's a need for further
funds that becomes a portfolio committee
issue so the SRO would go forward and
say
we've redone the business case we feel
that for another 25 on top of what we've
already spent we're still going to get
the outcomes and benefits we want and we
still think the business case Stacks up
and then you go to the portfolio
committee and it's not a question of
whether the business case Stacks up
that's the sro's job it's a question of
where the money comes from because what
they're going to do is pull money from
other parts of the portfolio
has anyone ever seen a program stop
exactly that's what I was gonna say it's
it's I was gonna write stopping a
program or report like a or a project is
still on the table but I have never seen
anyone uh executive 10 optimism price
but I said I've not seen an executive
ever stand by
um walking away from you know sunk Punk
cost it's it's it's a strong executive
that will and we've all been in programs
and we've all been in projects that
should have been closed and they are
still whipping the dead horse to get the
thing over
um they run over the you know those
decisions it's I find it really
interesting I am yet to find anyone
who's who's there
oddly enough Amanda as you know our key
focus is around project prioritization
so that strategic level and so we see it
we we see it all the time because when
people go through our process and you
get these things that that just people
look at them they go we shouldn't be
doing that should we and they they do
they kill them right but you've got to
have a you've got to have a a strong
process or as you say
and or a very strong executive to make
that decision to drive that decision
yeah so so a strong process can help you
because then it it removes that blame
culture it changes that blame culture to
being just data driven
um it's interesting isn't it because
stopping the program is seen by most
Executives as being career limiting yeah
we're sitting here and if I ever saw an
SRO who said this business case is no
longer viable we're pulling the pin
you'd think promoting this this person
knows what they're talking about so Ross
you just you unwittingly you just kicked
off one of my little pet peeves so if
there are any CEOs on this call
or if any of you feel like sharing the
recordings
please please do please do so so one of
the challenges in most organizations is
that that they actually
um often will set the goals of
executives
right and they will confuse goal with
projects so so a goal will be deliver
this project
that's not your goal that's not your
business goal
that's a project that's a deliverable
right so stop doing that because as soon
as you write deliver that object into
their into their goals and measurables
and their bonuses as soon as you do that
then they have no incentive at all to
act rationally and to help you kill that
project if it's a stinker yeah right
it's true so if you're a CEO if you're a
CEO stop it stop it stop it I say it one
more time stop it
right because it's it's causing all
kinds of problems all right listen I
want to move this there's loads of
conversations there's loads of great
questions about you know how do you spot
things going wrong and we don't have
time to answer them all and I'm really
sorry folks but here's here's one the uh
here's here's where I'd like to go so
we've got about five six minutes left is
you know what would you do today to get
the ball rolling so let's assume you've
got a fairly immature governance process
what would you do
and and if you feel like sort of
throwing in how you might be able to
help people on that Journey that would
be a good thing as well so so what would
you do to get it started and you know
what what what could you do to help
people get it started
governance
governance yeah
okay before Oh Ross you start okay go on
if
if you're in a pmo let's let's take the
person in the pmo it can be a hellish
place to be sometimes because quite
often they don't have that strong link
to the top Executives to get things
moving and that can be very difficult
but if you're on a pmo and you're seeing
projects failing and you're confident
that governance is one of the issues one
of the fundamental things you have to do
is prove that it's an issue now one way
of doing that particularly if you've got
poor governments you tend not to get
governance that's almost right but not
quite to me the organizations I've seen
it's not that they're at level three
maturity or level four maturity they're
either at level one with governance or
they're at about level four the bit in
the middle seems to be missed out
if you just map out all the Committees
that are involved in Project decision
making put it on an A3 page and start
drawing lines between them I did this
for a council in Australia a rather
large Council
and I mapped it I just went through and
I I did it in every line I said what it
did and so forth and then when I went to
the executive management team I gave him
a copy of this and I said now I'd like
somebody to explain how this works
because this is your governance
framework
and that was it that was it nobody could
explain it and you say okay there's some
changes we can make here let's start
working through those changes and if
you've got good governance when you
start talking about the changes you've
got in mind it's almost impossible for
anyone to disagree with them because
they're based on logic they're based on
evidence
so that's my tokens worth I got it I
gotta like a governance um timing it's a
metronome now one thing we get caught up
in and we all know this so when when
projects start going off
um off offline or or off kilter that's
that veering into the Dismal depths of
not delivering
what what people have a reaction to is
they try and control they try and lean
in and they try and clamp down and I I
bring the analogy to you of uh writing a
resource to the finish line
if you pull in that rain really tight
you're going to slow down your horse
you're going to slow it right down and
you're going to lose the race what you
have to do is actually the opposite you
have to let go of the reins a little bit
and let the horse ride and you ride the
horse to the Finish Line different you
don't you don't
you're not the horse and that's what I
think I think that um we forget when
we're in recovery you you there is a
human propensity to want to pull in and
control and pull that Reign right in
you've got to let it go now what I say
is that is because you've always seen
things where we've had every Fortnight
we've had reporting now the minute a
project starts to go off the rails
someone comes up with a genius idea I
want to know more every week I want to
see weekly reporting yeah
that person should be exited from the
building quicker than you can because
they're the problem so what happens is
that you wake up and we've all done it
PM's everywhere and
um you need Friday reports in
so on Monday you start running around
trying to get everybody lined up to get
the information in because by Wednesday
you need all the information in that's
already predicting what's going to be on
Fridays that you can pull a meeting to
the project information report packing
on Thursday so you can at least give
them a couple hours to read it before
they have a Friday meeting to have a
decision on the information that they
are going to have from the following day
because on the Friday they have the
meeting and they all thunk deep thoughts
and make big fat decisions only to know
that on Monday where no work has ever
happened between Friday and Monday apart
from those of the poor tests you know
people or the the developers who are
actually doing work on the weekend but
there's been no fundamental movement
from when we pick up our data so you're
boiling the Frog you're sitting there
having such small incremental change and
you're making decisions based over
something that happened in a 24-hour
period between Friday and Monday
so what you actually have to do is sit
there and allow a week of people to
actually do some Project work so you can
see the incremental changes so when
you're talking about your your metronome
or the heartbeat because that's what
governance is when you're actually
running those meetings that metronome
and heartbeat of how you were delivering
you you can still do say weekly
reporting if you really want to but you
do not run your your committees any in
your your project governance forms any
smaller than that two-week time frame
otherwise no one's got a goddamn time
and day to do any work so and the
decisions that you're making will not be
based on anything that is effectively
being done on the project and your you
will the project will die you will boil
the Frog I am happy if anyone has a
sponsor a client to to crawl in and just
save that project by having that
conversation I I ended up should wish I
had a way to share with you all I
actually much like Ross I drew a
um
a view of your project
um forums how they feed because every
single escalation path should feed into
your next line up on your governance
um even your risk meetings so you can
actually start drawing every two weeks
for your projects which rolls into every
four weeks which comes into your
quarterly Cycles so if you're doing
monthly after that you do every three
weeks or three months on your quarterly
cycles and then every six months for
some of those poor larger portfolio
meetings to feed that reporting line in
through that governance that don't don't
pull those reins in and have that that
conversation with the executive and the
leadership that explains to them the why
fantastic thank you so so much as I hate
right I think we could go for another
couple of hours here but but I don't
think that would go down well there's
plenty of conversation going on so so uh
what are what I'd love to do is just
give you just very quickly Amanda if
someone wants to learn more wants to
take this journey they want to talk to
you they want to see how IBM might help
what do they do
LinkedIn
um as I desperately try and pull my link
down and I'm actually openfool's not a a
common name
um I will connect with anyone please
stay connected
um I can reach linkedin's probably the
best for everybody
um that I can think of
um generally if anyone Rings me I
probably don't answer my phone
brilliant and Ross Ross where can people
get a copy of the book and where do they
go if they're interested in actually
taking the the certification the p3g
certification the certification is the
P3 gqa is the company P3 oh that's a
sexy name oh that is a sexy
qualification Authority yeah and uh
Alberto you're on the line there why
don't you drop in a link to it
um and doing the course you do a course
uh you can get accredited in p3g it's
all based on that book you can see there
uh you can get a book from p3gqa as well
you can get a book from the TSO the
stationary office so um yeah it's easily
available just Google it you'll find it
the p3g QA that's where you want to
go.com thanks Alberta
that's perfect
don't go anywhere you do it yeah yeah
just drop it drop your link into the
into the chat Amanda and then yeah no no
you just popped it to hosts and
panelists so I'm I'm just making sure
that goes to everybody
perfect and and then um you know I it
really just remains to to thank both of
you for your time and sharing your
wisdom and expertise it's uh it's always
great you can tell from the chat that
people are crying out for this right so
so
um a great session we should do this
again
um and um you know again uh
the my role in this is really just as a
court jester
um but so that so that the real experts
can can shine
um but if you're if you are interested
in the portfolio part of this in
particular the the prioritization and
um resource planning and all that kind
of good stuff
um we have another webinar in same same
time same place uh in two weeks time uh
uh where we're going to be demoing the
product and maybe even previewing some
really exciting AI capabilities that
will make this whole strategic planning
thing even better ooh exciting so keep
your eyes open for that you'll get
invitations over the next couple of
weeks and I hope to see some of you
there
um thank you everybody for joining and
um yeah I'm sorry we only did it for an
hour uh because it really looks like
there's a huge appetite for this
um as I say we'll try and get Ross and
or Amanda back uh to carry on the
conversation at some point in the in the
future so thank you very