I'm Stuart again, for anybody who doesn't know me, I'm,
uh, one of the founders and the CEO of Transparent Choice.
Uh, we're a software company
and we do portfolio management slash go
type software, right?
It's really cool. That's not what we're talking about today.
We're gonna be talking about stakeholders, right?
So we're gonna leave the world of, of, uh, governance
and processes and, and tools
and all that kind of stuff behind for a second.
And we're gonna focus on what really makes projects work.
And that's people, right? People make it work.
Now, I dunno, did, does anybody jump in there?
And, and tell me if you follow Stuart Taylor on YouTube.
Um, so Stuart Taylor, um, is, uh, he does,
he does a bunch of, uh,
project management related YouTube videos.
Um, uh, a lot of them are, are, are really good fun.
Some of them are quite serious, some are quite good fun.
But he just did an experiment where he tried
to run a project, right?
So he was creating a new training, operate,
and he, he tried to run that project using
chat GBT as the project manager.
And, um, and it wasn't entirely successful.
It wasn't an entire failure, entirely a failure either.
But for now, I think the conclusion is we still need people.
Okay? So people are what make projects work.
People are also usually what cause projects to fail.
So, um, so I have invited on today, Dawn Mahan.
Now Dawn, if you don't know Dawn,
she is an absolute mega star.
Um, she's, she's, uh, so she does a lot of, you know,
PMO training, project management training.
She does a lot of charity work.
She just actually was doing a charity golf
thing yesterday, right?
Dawn, yay. Um, uh,
she has built houses out in Cambodia.
She has done all kinds of,
I think it was Cambodia, wasn't it?
Yeah. Yeah. Um, so she's done all sorts
of really fascinating things,
but by far, far, far, far,
the most exciting thing she's ever done in her life was, uh,
share a table, uh, next to the pool
with me in Saudi Arabia, right?
Uh, and it was, you, me, there was Laura Barnard there.
Uh, we had, Lee Lambert was there.
Uh, we, who else was there?
We, we had Mo Reb Al Shehe, two times winner
of the PMO Leader of the Year Award, uh, and her husband.
And, and we had a lovely night.
We got the guitar out, which, which was interesting
'cause it only had five strings.
And, uh, anyway, while we're sitting by the pool, Dawn
and I got talking about, uh, her latest book.
And those of you who know me know
that I talk a lot about ducks.
Okay? Why ducks? Well, because, um,
because your executives right,
really don't care about your projects.
They really don't, right?
They don't care if you've got a boy duck or a girl duck.
They don't care about your Gantt charts.
They don't care what methodology you use.
They don't care about any of that stuff.
They don't care if you go boy duck or girl duck.
They just care about eggs, right? The value of the project.
That's the only thing they care about.
And I dare say, we might touch on
that a little bit later on.
Um, uh, but,
but this whole theme of ducks led
to a conversation about other animals.
And of course, you can't talk about other animals without
talking about project land.
Lauren's latest thought, right?
So this is, this is such a creative way
to talk about stakeholders around projects.
It's, it's, it's a load of fun.
Um, but it's also a very kind of practical book, uh, about
how to engage stakeholders, how to, uh, avoid pitfalls, how
to manage, how to manage the snakes, right?
Things like that. Um, so, so we're gonna,
we're gonna take a little wander through Project Land today
with Dawn and, um, uh, hopefully learn a few things.
And as I say, uh, I just wanna shock. I like it.
Um, uh, and hopefully what, we'll, we'll, uh,
hopefully you guys will join in, share some
of your experiences, share some
of the challenges maybe that you've had.
We can get dawn's uh, dawn's thoughts on it.
Uh, but, and I'm gonna start, Dawn, actually
with just a couple of quick questions.
So the first one in the Green Room we were talking about,
um, that quote about a book, uh,
being the distillation of, right?
So, so tell us a little bit about that
and then tell us about kind of where you started,
what was the inspiration for this book,
and then we'll get into kind of the topic from there.
Sure, sure. Hi everybody.
Thanks so much for having me, Stuart.
I love having chats with you. We're always so much fun.
Um, and I just love how aligned we are on so many
of the kind of topics that we like to talk about
and, and help people with.
So, thanks for having me.
So where the inspiration came from,
first of all, I love books.
If anybody else loves books, um, you know, give us a,
give us a yes in the chat there.
I love books because I grew up in a small town,
and the library basically saved my life, um,
because I was bored outta my mind.
And so books were a way to escape, uh, for me and learn.
And I'm just, I became a voracious leader
at a very young age.
And look at this, Amy, Jenny, she, Tabitha, justice Ryan.
Yes, Annette. So we have some book lovers here, too.
Yay, ed. Thank you, Mahesh.
So, um, yeah, so books definitely,
I've been a big fan for a long, long time.
And in fact, I, I tend to have multiple books
that I'm reading at once at different times of day.
So I have morning books, I have evening books,
I have kind of day books.
Um, and so what happened, which was wild to me,
is back in about 2010, I was in Chicago at a,
um, at a client.
And in Chicago, this group was a very low maturity
organization as far as projects went.
So the president of the company, ha, was new there, knew me,
looked around and was like, these people don't know how
to operate projects.
They, they don't get it. They're wide-eyed.
They don't understand anything about, when I say, well,
when can you get this done?
Like, create a schedule, they have no idea
what to do, right?
So he said, can you help me out? I said, sure.
So he flew me to Chicago, um, along with the,
Just, just to be clear, Dawn, right?
So yeah, we have some Brits on the call. Yes.
So a, a schedule is what we would call a schedule.
Let's see if we could get Dawn speaking.
Thank you English language by the end of the call.
Let's give it a go, folks. Let's see if we could just
schedule pick her up and just keep her schedule.
There you go. That's it. Yeah.
Thank you. Thank you. So anyway, I'm in this room
of very seasoned people.
Most of the people had worked here for over 20 years.
And, um, and the one
of the gentlemen named Jermaine looked up at me in the
middle of class and he goes, Dawn, where's the book?
And I said, what? And he said, Dawn, where's the book?
I want the book with all the stories you tell
and all the tips on, I want it on my desk.
I want it with me because you're gonna go away.
And I, and I'm gonna, and I want that.
And I'm like, are you kidding me?
Like, you would want a book of my, of what?
And so it was, it was my turn to be confused.
And, uh, so anyway, he planted the seed in like 2010.
And so it had been sort of hanging out there
for a while, you know, ever since then.
That's cool. That's so cool.
And, and it, it's funny how often it starts like that.
I was talking to Laura and, you know, I think Laura Barnard,
uh, uh, and, um, yeah.
And so her book actually lives on my,
on my nightstand, right?
So, so every night I go to bed with Laura,
which isn't something I should say.
'cause her husband's bigger than I
ever, stronger than I ever, right?
But hey, there you go.
Um, so, but, uh,
but you know, it's not a, it's not a
dissimilar story, right?
It, it's the fact that, that there's so much experience
that you, you have that Laura has, and,
and, uh, uh, you know, he was just,
she's got a book coming out as well, you know, she,
people are so much experience, real world experience.
And, and what you've done in, in this one i i,
that I really enjoyed is you found a voice
that makes it very approachable, right?
Because stakeholder engagement, you know, it can be, yeah,
we all know we should do it.
I, I spent three hours working with one of my guys today on,
you know, how are we gonna help our partners do
stakeholder engagement better?
And, you know, it can be a little dry
and a little, um, you know, yeah,
we know we're gonna think about the whiff
and this the other, but,
but what you've done in the book
is bring it, bring it alive.
So, so how did you come up the idea of, of using animals?
Uh, actually first thing, has anybody read the book?
Just bang in the, in the chat.
I'm not expecting anybody to have read it. Um,
This time, Nick. Oh, I know.
At least one person has read it
Here for James.
James is a, yeah, we, there we go.
We got a bunch of people who've read it. Fantastic.
Yeah. James, you got through it. All right.
Awesome. Great.
Oh, Ja, James devours books. He's brilliant. Um, awesome.
Uh, not finished yet. Okay.
So we have a couple in progress. Great.
Excellent. Ryan's out on Amazon as we speak.
Good stuff. Oh,
Thank you, Ryan.
So, uh, so you had mentioned about the Green Room,
what we were talking about, and I, uh, I,
and I just wanna highlight that.
So I met this, this other author, um, named Nick Hutchinson.
So any of you guys that are big book readers too.
So he wrote Rise of the Reader,
and in that book, he talks about how he was, um,
you know, he realized that books were a way to get access
to people and their brains
and decades of experience for 20 bucks, you know, or quid
or whatever, right?
And so, uh, so I, I thought, you know, that is so true
that you can get access to all these people that have
all of this experience that they condense decades into,
you know, 200 pages, 250 pages, or whatever it is.
And, um, and so I, I was on a webinar recently
and they were like, Hey, you know, why'd you write the book?
And I told, you know, the story about Jermaine in Chicago,
and I said, you know, but I also get asked to for people
to pick my brain a lot, right?
And it was like, instead now it's like anybody can just go
get the book and, you know, read it at your leisure.
Um, and if you're an ebook person
or a paperback person, you know, I've become both, right?
For different reasons. Like, I got Nick's book on, uh,
as an ebook because I was traveling a lot,
and I did a lot of I 127 highlights in this book.
Like, 'cause it counts. It isn't that crazy? Yeah.
So, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, he had wellness tips
for health, wealth and happiness in there.
So there were a lot of highlights in that area too.
But, um, you know, so anyway, rise of the Reader by Nick,
uh, Hutchinson, and he talks about how to get the most
of the books you do read, which I was like,
why didn't I ever think of this so smart?
Anyway, so I just wanted to to highlight
that steward since you had mentioned
about what we were talking
About. Yeah, yeah. No,
no, that, that's fantastic.
So, so, so give us, give us a really high level overview of,
you know, why animals.
Yeah. Why animals, what do they mean, right?
What's, what, there's a really,
it's a really fun metaphor, right?
So just talk us through the metaphor at a high level.
Yeah. So what happened is, you know, I'm, I was starting
to try to figure out, okay, all
of this project experience I had,
I have PMO director experience,
and I kept finding myself being forced into, I mean,
invited into low maturity organizations
where they literally have no idea how this works.
None. And so I thought, well, what's a fun way
to talk about the players?
To talk about the people
that people aren't gonna get offended.
Because if you create avatars and you like, call one Fred,
and they're the snake, you know, essentially the saboteur
of the project, then some really nice guy named
Fred is gonna get mad at you.
So I was like, you can't be mad at a snake for being a snake
because a snake is a snake,
and that's just how they operate, right?
So I thought, all right, well, let's start
to, let's just see.
And so I played with the idea of these animal avatars,
and um, and it started to work.
It started to work. And so, like on the front cover
of our practical project management training is a PA
beautiful picture of this t of a tiger face.
And, and when we start practical project management school,
um, as opposed to theoretical version, right?
This is the real, the real world stuff where we get real,
real in class, you know, about how the people operate,
that I ask them, you know, what's your word?
Like when you see this picture of this beautiful tiger,
what word comes to mind first when you think about, um,
the world of projects that I call project land?
And you, and it's amazing what all the words are
that come out of it, you know?
And, and so, um, so we started to embrace the tiger,
and that's my logo for PMO training.com
and all of our divisions is that,
is this sort of digital tiger.
And so it was like, okay, we're embracing the tiger
as the animal avatar for the project manager,
but then it's sort of ballooned from there.
Well, if the tiger is the project manager, then the lion has
to be the boss, the sponsor of the project as well, right?
And, um, and that has resonated also when
we do sponsor school.
So we have this gorgeous fierce
lion picture right on the front,
and I'm like, y'all are the lion.
So when you roar,
then all the creatures are on edge in project land.
And it's like, then the executives are like, oh,
you know what, that's true.
Like, even though they're like, I'm a nice person, you know,
I don't understand why people are intimidated by me.
I'm like, maybe it's not you. Maybe it's your role.
Maybe it's your position. Maybe it's the authority you have.
So you have to be aware that the interpretation
that the rest of the creatures may have of you is
that you are a lion and you're pretty darn scary, right?
And so if you get upset and you get passionate
and you, you know, like,
please check yourself in the right way,
sometimes there's an appropriate time to do that.
And other times, you know, if you say,
if you roar at somebody when they say the project is
red, you guess what?
It will be green forevermore. You'll never get Just
Say that again.
Just say that again, because that's so important,
Isn't it? I mean, this
is, and this is what we teach the sponsors,
like your reaction sponsors to when people come to you
with a problem needs to be, how can I help?
How can I help? Right? That's all you have to say.
Because usually somebody knows how you can help
if you're the sponsor and they can tell you,
how can I, how you can help.
Like, listen, you know, I tried this,
I tried this, I tried that.
Do you have any other ideas?
And then instead of saying, well,
you should have tried this, you can say,
have you considered this other thing?
And they was, no, I didn't consider it. Let me go try that.
Right? And, um, and, and I'll let you know how it works out.
And so being helpful is what we want our sponsors
to be not clearly.
So, so, so is the, so is the lion morphing
into a wise old owl?
So we do have, uh, animal avatars for the steering team.
So in the chat, y'all, if, um, imagine
what your steering team members,
what the animal avatars might be for those,
if you have not read the book yet
or gotten to that chapter,
so tell us what you think they are.
And, and Stewart just gave one away the owl.
So what I also find in low maturity organizations is
that they don't know when they need a steering team.
So either there are way too many steering teams
and you know, there are way too many leaders engaged on way
too many projects that they don't need to be engaged on,
you know, or they're,
they don't have a steering team when they need one.
And so I find that teaching sponsors how
to sniff out when they need a steering team
and who they then need on the steering team is important
because some cultures are very inclusive
and they're like, oh, well, so
and so is gonna get upset
if they're not on the steering team.
If, if such and such is on the steering team.
It's like, it's like when you're planning a wedding
and you're like, well, you gotta cut
the family tree off here.
You know, and like, all the cousins at this level have
to be invited, or none
of the cousins at this level have to be invited, right?
It's like the same kind of culture, which is really Mahesh
Says, I love that.
I love that. Mahesh, you asked,
what animals do you see on project straight committees?
Mahe, straight and rat
Straight. Nice,
nice. So, um, he must also be a mob movie fan.
So, um, so the owl, you know, if, if you think about
what are the projects that need a steering team?
And I, and I really want, you know,
in high maturity organizations,
we are very thoughtful about this, right?
We are the ones, we are, we are thinking about, okay, if
we have the 80 20 rule, right?
What I'm hoping is that the right sponsor was assigned,
first of all, who can make 80% of the decisions.
And in ca cases where they need help
to make the other 20% of the decisions,
that's when you know you need a steering team, right?
So it could be geographically dispersed projects, right?
Projects where there's a big component
that isn't in the sponsor's wheelhouse, right?
Like for instance, you know,
there might be a big software component,
but it might be a big business process component too.
And you can have a steering team of one.
And some people are like, what do you mean?
And they're like, you can have a steering team of one.
Yes, you can. And that is highly appropriate
and it's happened many, many times
and it can work really, really well.
So, um, so you know, thinking about that,
but what I, there's the like authority side of
how you choose a steering team.
The steering team members, well, you know, if you have, uh,
an engineer and a quality
and they're like kind of 50 50 on the, the work
of the project, but really, you know, the,
the engineer is the one that reports the executive boss.
Like, this is exactly what happened to a client of ours
where they had to choose between the two guys, like,
which one of you is gonna be the sponsor?
And I said, and I totally meant it, either one
of you would make a great sponsor for this
'cause it's kind of 50 50 on the, on the work content.
And so I said, you know, so they said,
we're gonna be co-sponsors.
Thank God there wasn't video in those days.
I was like, no, anything
but that co-sponsors is a recipe for disaster.
Absolutely. Right?
So when, yeah, a hundred percent in tools like yours,
there's like one name that can go in the column, right?
That's what we want. We want one name to go in the column.
And I even have a story in my book about
how I was sitting in this, uh, in this organization
and the CEO looked across the table at me
and said, I need one throat to choke.
And I'm like, did he just really say that? Yes.
Yeah. Really
Did. And, and,
but I thought, oh, yes,
that is, that is it though.
That is really, I mean,
Yeah, I, I mean the whole, the whole, at the end
of the day, that's the point
of an executive sponsor is to be accountable.
Yes. It's, you know, the business case is
for project is their business case.
Yes. They are the ones who have the, the,
the authority, right?
The positional authority to make things happen. Right?
That's what they are for, is to be accountable.
They are there to be the throat that gets choked.
And, and trust me, they get paid for it. Okay? Yeah.
So don't feel bad for them. Don't feel bad for them.
That's what they're there for. Um,
and uh, so, so I'm really interested, right?
'cause we, we've had a few elephants.
Leo, may you need to go get some therapy.
Um, right.
I mean, hippo sheep, lots of sheep.
I love it. I love it. Um, these
Are brilliant. These are
brilliant. A fox,
It's great. Yeah.
Lots of bears. We got lots of bears in there.
Uh, so, so do you know what I, when I was walking across to
before we started this, I was thinking, okay, as, as,
as the CEO of a business, what animal
do I think my team sees me as?
Ooh, there's a good question.
It just got me thinking.
And, and, and actually, I, I have to say that half the time
I hope it's that kind of wise owl.
The other half of the time I'm the bear. Mm.
Because you're gonna, you're gonna poke
me and you're gonna get a growl.
'cause if you come to me with something
stupid, you're gonna get a growl.
Mm. I don't bring me problems. Yes. Right.
But don't bring me a problem and then spend, you know,
10 minutes telling me all the
technical detail of your problem.
'cause that's not my job. Right.
Right. Um, so, so this is, so this is part of what,
where, where we're, we're gonna go with the conversation,
I think is how do, how do we engage with those lions
to get the most outta them?
Yeah. Right? Because they are lions.
I'm a bear, I am a bear. Right?
That's my job is to be a bear. Right.
Or a lion or whatever you wanna call me. Right?
Um, the bear sort of suits my
side on profile a little better.
Oh, please. But too much honey.
But, um, but, uh, but, but,
but the point is, right,
you can affect the behavior of that bear.
If you go and poke the bear, he's gonna growl at you
and he's gonna take a swipe.
Yeah. But if you go, if you go in prepared
and you treat the bear with respect,
and you give it what it needs, right?
That bear is gonna roll over
and let you rub its tummy all day long.
Yeah. Absolutely.
Uh, so, so, so let, let's kind
of go there just for a minute, right?
Let, let's stay with the, with the, the senior leadership
and the, you know, just so the, the steering committee
and the, and the, the, uh, sponsor,
Oh, you just said a bad word.
Oh no, sorry. Tell me why it's a bad word.
So there's this great quote that I put in the book too,
you know, that committees, uh, it was by Milton Burl, right?
C it, it's something like, um, committees, uh, burn hours
or take minutes and burn hours, like something like that.
Uh, we'll have to find it. And, um, so it's one
of you that have the book.
You can find it, the Milton Borough co quote
and share it in here if you want.
Perfectly. So it's not, I don't, because I'm paraphrasing,
but, um, so yeah, the bad word steering committee.
And it's because, it's
because committees, we don't run project
by committee, right?
Because the whole accountability problem.
So when I work in nonprofits, there are a lot
of committees, right?
And so they think, oh, it's a steering committee.
They're like, would you ever like to get this project done?
Would you like to see it get done? Ever? Oh, okay.
Well then we have a steering team. And words matter.
So one of the things
that I really emphasize a lot is correcting people
when they accidentally say steerco
or steering committee. Yeah. You're spot on
Because, Right, because let's get the vibe right,
that we are a team working toward a goal
to get this thing done, right? Like, let's get it
Done. And, and we, we do
the same thing.
So we, we often talk about panels.
So when you're, when you're make collecting information
and data and, and opinions, right?
That's a panel. We're getting people's input, right?
They're not making a decision.
They have no decision making authority,
but they, they can have input it.
That's right though. Yes. I'm sorry.
I, I, I'll set the corner.
Be quiet. Well, was it, I think he did it on purpose
so we could have that teaching moment. Yeah,
I did. Absolutely. Yes. Thank
you, Stuart. Yes, absolutely.
So, so this, so back to the, the, the task at hand, right?
So, so the lion, you know, if you think about, if you,
if you would like to, you know,
imagine your sponsor is a lion, right?
It's like, okay, they might be in a bad mood.
They might have had a hard morning, right? Mm-Hmm.
They might have had just come out of the meeting
with the CEO who just handed them, you know, a whole pile
of nonsense that they have to deal with, you know,
or a really tough problem.
You never know. I mean, these people are really,
really busy, really important, making a lot of money,
hopefully, uh,
because they deserve it for the
stress level that they're under.
And so you need to be aware of this.
So I love what you said, Stewart, about, you know,
be going in prepared.
One way to go in prepared is
to really think about the profile of your lion.
What is really the profile of your lion?
So if Stewart
or a lion, he would say, don't gimme the technical details.
That's not my chop. I'm gonna get really annoyed.
I'm gonna roll my eyes and I'm gonna tell you to get
to the bottom line of what, how I can help you,
because I don't have time
to hear all your technical details.
Right? And that's fair.
So if, if you need to know the profile of your lion first.
So in the book, I have evil sponsor behaviors
and also evil steering team behaviors.
Now, the people aren't evil necessarily, right?
Some of them are, I've dealt
with them unfortunately, in project land.
But when you think about, you know, no human is perfect.
No human is definitely perfect under stress.
And project land is 100% stressful.
'cause the clock is always ticking on a project, right?
Like, there's a time sensitivity on projects.
Nobody says, uh, take all the time you need
and means it, right?
Ever. I mean, come on. Never, never, never.
So, yeah, I love what James just said.
You know, you gotta go in honest and not sugarcoat it.
'cause they can smell the bs, right?
If you forgive me for that.
So you, it is important
to develop a great relationship with them.
And one of the things that I like to think about is, okay,
they're gonna have strengths.
You as a pm, you know, if you're a PM in a PM role
or a PMO role, you're gonna have strengths.
And it's important to make sure that the lion is surrounded
by the people who can build them up
and help them be successful
and be the rock stars that they need to be on the project so
that the project is successful.
So if, for instance, one of the, one
of the evil behaviors is when they can't make a decision
on time, right?
They're indecisive.
And so you have to figure out how can I get them
to make the decision on time?
And that's part of your, your role is
to help support their decision making.
So if they're, if they prefer analysis paralysis, then,
you know, hey, six weeks out from the decision I need,
I'm gonna have to start to understand from them
what information do they need to make said decision?
When do they need it by?
How can we get them ready
to make the decision on time, right?
Um, so that's just one example.
Absolutely. And, and, and putting it into,
into, into context, right?
The, um, uh, you know, when, when people bring,
we're only a small company, right?
But when people bring stuff to me, if they walk in
and they start saying, well, I need you to make a decision.
Okay, what's the decision?
We need to know whether we should do this or this. Okay?
Those are two things I have no knowledge about,
so you're gonna have to help me out here.
Right? And so then, so then they go from 10,000 feet
to three feet, that's no good. That doesn't help me
Down in the weeds. Yep.
Down in the weeds, right?
So, so, you know, it's, it's about learning the language
of the creature you're talking to.
I think that's m I'm putting
words in your mouth a little bit.
That's absolutely right. Yeah. Mm-Hmm.
But, but it, it's about learning the language
of the creature that you're dealing with.
Yes. And speak in that language, right?
So if you're dealing with me, right?
Bring me a problem, right?
But then bring me some solutions
and tell me why each one of those is good or bad, right?
Because then, then I've got information I can, I can use
to kind of say, yeah, okay, I,
this feels like about the right balance, right?
Absolutely. Or I can ask further questions or whatever.
Yeah. I love that. That's great advice.
Um, and you know, I feel like when this question that came
through from a shock, you know, how do we learn
that language if you haven't already worked with this person
or you're new to the organization?
You know, one of the things that I love to suggest,
if you don't know the language of that sponsor,
is find out somebody who does.
Right? Find out somebody who has worked with that person
closely who, you know, can give you some advice about
how best to work with them.
I mean, even to the point of practicality on, are they,
do they prefer to have morning meetings
or afternoon ones, right?
Do they, are they, is it better to get them, you know, at,
at what time of day is it best to get them?
Because I'll tell you what,
my name is Dawn and it shouldn't be.
'cause I am not a morning person.
Like, please do not put a 7:00 AM meeting on my calendar.
Well, it's just to remind you
that there is a dawn in the day.
Right?
You know, it's like, uh, so I don't do well then.
So please don't set me up that way.
And it's like, if you wanna get outta me
what you need outta me, set it up for the time
that you need it and set me up
for success in giving you what you need.
And that's how every sponsor really truly operates.
So find out from somebody that's worked with that person
before, well gee, you know, what are their ticks?
Like, how, what's, what's a landmine?
I don't wanna step in with them, right?
Do you have, what advice do you have for me?
And anytime anybody has said to me, me, Hey, I,
I'd really like some advice, you know,
and it's hard to deny somebody that if you're like,
I really need some advice about Stewart.
'cause I have not worked with him before,
and I'd really like to know how to be successful in working
with him as a leader.
And, and people should, should give
that person some advice and be happy to do it.
Right. Um, if they, if they're not a snake,
Wow, well, we'll come to the snakes in a minute
before we leave there, right?
So, so, um, as a, as a project manager
or a PMO leader, right?
You are a leader. You're a leader.
And so hundred percent, again, when you are presenting
or when your team is presenting to those lions,
it's not just your responsibility to,
to communicate yourself clearly,
it's also your responsibility
to make sure your team also understands how they need
to be communicating and that they are communicating clearly.
Mm-hmm. Right? That's part of the responsibility
of being a leader, right?
Mm-Hmm. Being that tiger, right?
Ti tigers have claws and, and teeth as well, right?
So don't be afraid to, I'm not saying you should go
and mo your team, but, um,
but don't be afraid to lead, right?
And don't be afraid to, to kind of coach
and say, guys, this is, if we want this outcome, this is
how we need to go about it.
Yeah. Absolutely. And
that's the number one practical tip I share in our practical
project management certificate class about the role
of the project manager is that number one is they need
to embrace the leadership role.
And when we, we were talking a little bit earlier about
low maturity organizations.
One of the big problems in low maturity organizations many
times is that the project manager is between a rock
and a hard place on they've, they have been given allegedly
the authority to run the project, but nobody gets that.
Right? And so they keep going to their bosses
for advice instead of the project manager
or the project manager says, I have
to lead with no authority.
Right? I don't have any authority.
Well, that's a shame because if,
if the organization wants this person to run the project,
they better enforce the authority that that role has
to set them up for success.
Otherwise it's a total zoo,
But intended.
Yeah. Very much so.
Um, okay, so, so let's, let's kind of carry on.
So there, there's a couple of que couple of comments
and questions coming in.
Yeah. Uh, you know, you know, so, so Mahesh, um,
also put a question in the q and a and,
and the, the, the nut of it is, okay, in A PMO, uh,
nobody knows what I'm for.
Right? And I'm, I'm putting words in your mouth, Mahesh,
but that, that's close enough, right?
So, so, you know, the execs, they don't know what, what I'm
for, there's no transparency, there's no support buy-in.
So any thoughts there?
'cause because that's a slightly different scenario
to being a project manager, right?
You, you, it's a different set
of stakeholders at some level.
The PMO stakeholders. Hmm.
Is that, is that really Yeah. Is that's it. Yeah. Yeah.
So, you know, the p So when I was a PMO director, right?
And we were changing the way
that the whole organization ran projects.
Like it was utter chaos
before we were getting professional PMs in,
they were telling people, you know, like leading people
through the process and people were
resisting all over the place.
I call it the resistance, right?
And so, as a PMO leader, I had
to really worry about all of these stakeholders,
but I couldn't do it all at once.
So I had to co be concerned myself with the executives
and how, and the,
and the team leads,
like the department heads and stuff like that.
And I would have one-on-ones with all of them
and be like, what's going on?
How are you feeling? You know about your pm how are you,
you know, I'd check in with the sponsors,
how are they feeling about the pm?
And I would gather this intel.
And one of the key things that I did that I,
I didn't know would be so impactful
and really, really was, was I started, I had my crew
of professional project managers
and I said, you guys, we are the face of project management.
If we are, this is the fourth time this organization has
tried to do A PMO.
If we don't succeed with like, it's over, right?
So we, what I need you to do is realize you are the face
of project management to the people that you work with.
And I need you to come back to me
with the value you are delivering
and when your project delivers value.
And so what I did was I had a piece of paper, uh,
and I had, you know, I started to track like the,
the, the value delivery.
So for instance, when, uh, the organization decided
that we already had a, like a, a business organization said,
we want a tool, right?
This happens all the time, but we want a tool,
we want this tool, it we want you to put it in.
And the IT organization, you know, we went
through the process, whatever, and we realized, oh,
what they're really, the problem they're really trying
to solve here is solved by a tool we already have in-house.
So we saved them, you know, $250,000
and 12 weeks at minimum, right?
And so we calculated that
and I'm like, you know, in six months we were
to a million dollars in value.
So as the PMO head, I was like, everybody I talked to,
I was like, did you know that we delivered a million dollars
in value in only six months?
Did you know that, you know,
my team is delivering a million dollars in
value in only six months.
And then the resistance started
to deflate a little bit, which is, there you go.
Which is key. So like proof, you know, you have to,
if in low maturity organizations where you're trying
to bring maturity, they want proof, they're, you know,
if anybody on the call is from the show me
state in the us right?
The show me state, it's like they're all from the show me
state, show me the value, show me, and you have to prove it.
And so that like, thermometer
of we're delivering this value,
we delivered this value in this way
and this value in that way, you know, line it up.
So, so, so there's a good,
i I said we were gonna talk about people and things
and avoid the process and the tools,
but Leo, you just set it up for me.
So, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna dive in there just for a second.
Um, so, so, so actually I'm,
I'm gonna go back a couple of comments.
Ashok. Um, so you, you, you said something there about,
you know, get, get the, get the charter out
and get people to buy into it and your golden Yeah.
Yeah. Okay.
Maybe, um, I actually,
I'm gonna steal something from Laura Barnard here.
Yeah. I, I like the way Laura thinks about this stuff.
Mm-Hmm. She, she, she's not a big fan of the charter.
What she talks about is building a business plan,
right? For a, for
The PMO. Yeah. For
the PMO. That's right. Mm-Hmm.
So you are a business, right? Mm-Hmm. Your customers, right?
The executives, they give you money and resources. Mm-Hmm.
And what they expect in return is value. Yeah.
Gregor, good to see you. I didn't see you there.
Good to see you, Gregor. Welcome.
Um, so what they're expect in return is value.
And the way that you're delivering that value is you,
you're cranking out projects.
And those projects create benefits in
the business that we can measure.
And so, uh, so Leo, we, we get to your question.
Now, how do we, how do we measure that?
So that starts really with, with, you know,
this is actually about governance, portfolio of governance.
It's, it's about, you gotta start by knowing
what are the KPIs the business cares about?
Yep. Right?
So, so if the business, if you are,
if you're in a cash cow business, right?
Then actually they don't care about Mark market share.
'cause they already have it, right? They've got it all.
They've got all they're ever gonna get.
So they care about efficiency and reducing cost
and all of these things so that they can milk the profit out
and put it into the rising stars, right?
If you're in a rising star, you care about growth
and you might not care about margin, right?
So you need to understand the business KPIs. Yes.
And then you need to do the prioritization stuff so
that you're, you're helping the business select the projects
that support their KPIs.
Then you need to deliver the projects
and measure the KPIs, right?
I I, I'm oversimplifying it a little bit, right?
But, but if you do that, then you can turn around
and you can say, okay, you said you wanted a million dollars
of savings, I've delivered 1.2,
Right? Okay.
And you have to tell people,
Yeah, you, you, Like some,
some people are a little too humble on this.
I was like, this wasn't me, this was my team, right?
So I was like, look at, you know? Yeah.
They're like, any questions, you know,
that's it about the right.
That's it. So yeah, that's really important.
And on the people side, like, the thing
that also happened, right?
Is people like to pick.
So they're part of the resistance, right?
Is about people wanna pick.
So sometimes it's about how, you know, they're just trying
to bring people down because they don't
like what is happening.
So they're gonna pick at things, right?
And they're gonna ask a lot of questions,
and you better be ready to answer them.
And you better be, uh, operating in the, in the, in a way
that the culture can, can digest,
Woodpecker.
Love it. Woodpecker.
Nice. That's your pick, that's your person pick.
Yeah. Perfectly.
So, so what I, what I feel is,
and I I talk about this in the book, is some
of the cultural implications for how
to operate in your version of Project Land, right?
Like, what is, do you even know, if somebody,
if I walked into your organization
and said, describe your version of Project Land to me,
what are the characteristics that really are important
to know to navigate your version of Project Land, right?
That is important to understand so
that you can operate in the right way in
whatever role you're in.
So for instance, if, if, if when we work
with government or governmental organizations, right?
They're very risk averse
because they know that,
that they could be under media scrutiny
for the wrong decision, right?
Like, so if, let's say they bring in a software
and they spend $20 million
and they get zero value out of it, I mean,
that could be a headline, right?
Like, city wastes another 20 million
of taxpayers money in America, right?
Like that's, yeah. So they, so they're risk avoiders.
So decisions take a long time.
So if you are a risk, or if you have a high risk tolerance
and you're shooting from the hip, you're gonna
probably be a little friction sometimes there.
And you have to know how
to operate in the culture that you're in.
And what I like to think about is how can you start
to move your culture into more of a healthy culture
that gets results and,
and push it, you know, push it toward that in a way
that doesn't break you.
'cause you're the one that's gonna break, by the way,
the organization's not gonna break.
It's you, right? You're gonna be find yourself out the
door if that's the case.
So, um, anytime
and project leaders, PMO leaders, I have been there, uh,
many times you're asked
to be a change agent in a low maturity organization.
And when you are asked to be a change agent,
here's my advice for you, either run the other way
or don Bulletproof vest
because it, it is gonna be hard, right?
It's also very,
very satisfying when you can sit back in six months
and say, we delivered a million dollars in value.
We're changing the way the organization gets projects done,
and it's better, and it's faster and it's cheaper.
And, uh, people are having, you know,
a better experience of it as well.
So it can be extremely satisfying,
but it can also be just really, really hard.
And, and one of the animals that makes it so hard.
I've been trying to figure out how we got back to this one.
So I'm really delighted that, very pleased
with myself on this segue.
Yeah. Uh, so one of the, one of the creatures that makes
that so difficult is the snake.
So talk to us about snakes.
How do we, how do we, how do we spot a snake first?
You know? And sometimes, um, sometimes you don't, right?
So the idea with the whole snake is stakeholders are, um,
either love your project, hate your project,
or somewhere in between.
And the snakes are the ones that hate your project.
They may not want you to succeed.
They may not want the project to succeed for some reason.
But really, you know,
every villain is a hero in their own story.
So snakes feel like they're protecting their territory.
They feel like, you know, they feel righteous in their,
you know, in, in their perspective.
And the idea that I was talking about is, you know,
about project land is, do you know
what yours is really the profile of your project land.
And if you are sort of skipping through the meadow
of project land,
and you're not watching out for snakes, one,
if you get close to one, it's going to jump up
and bite you, right?
And this has happened to me, you know, many times
where I didn't see that one coming.
And so we talked about, you know, stakeholder analysis
before and how stakeholders, you know, people like,
especially in tech,
people don't think about the people as much as they should.
And that's been my experience in, you know,
decades in technology where we just think about the process
and the tools, and we don't think
about the people as much as we should.
Well, you know, I really hope that with this book,
people start to realize, um, that the sad truth is
that if you don't know who your snakes are,
you are gonna find out and it's gonna be the
hard way, right?
That's, that's
Not, and, and do you think, and so let me ask you this,
do you think a snake is a personality
or is it, is it a, is it a, an artifact of circumstance?
So I think it can be both in either or.
So I, you know, some people come across as naysayers.
Um, I saw that.
So some people come across that way,
but really that's just their personality.
They, they're just questioners.
They like to ask questions, they like to challenge.
It's, you know, that's just kind of
how they operate and think things through.
And that's fine. There are analysts, you know,
I've been there myself.
Um, and then, but other times they legit don't want you
to succeed and will figure out a way
to help you, help you fail.
And so, like, they, they all exist.
I mean, they, all of these creatures can exist at different
times or another.
And so, and Leo asked the question, you know,
what animal comes across as a supporter?
And then snakes, you maybe a hyena.
So what's,
I have been asked the question like, what's the next book?
And we're, we're actually working on, um, uh,
project Land goes to the movies,
and the, the chapter I just wrote
as an example chapter is from the Italian job, Leo.
And that is, if anybody saw the Italian job, uh,
with Mark Wahlberg
and, um, Charlie Theron, you know,
the many years ago now it's like,
I think it's a 20-year-old movie now.
Um, I just love it. It's one of my favorites.
Ed Norton's character was a team
member, and he turns on them.
And so he was a snake inside the team.
So it turns out he was a saboteur inside the team.
And that does, that can happen.
It's, I think it's a little bit more rare than the
stakeholder that feels threatened, right?
But it has happened to me.
And I, there's a story in the book about it,
about a steering team member that sabotaged a project.
So, and so there, there's a question.
So I shall ask a question.
How do we dodge and, and counter the, you know, move
around the snakes, you know, manage the snakes?
And, and my guess is the answer is that it depends on
what kind of snake they are, right?
Are they a mean snake or are they just a snake defending the
territory that you just startled?
You know, so, so, so talk to us a little bit about that.
Yeah. Well, it all, you know, who are the snakes comes out
in when you do your stakeholder analysis?
Um, and as part of the book, there are some, uh, resources
that I use that our team uses.
Uh, one of them is called the
stakeholder analysis and management matrix.
And the first, the first thing is you just start to identify
who the different stakeholders are.
And you have a very private conversation with the sponsor,
for instance, about, you know,
the stakeholders and their profiles.
So who is a cheerleader for your project, right?
Who loves your project and is your cheerleader
who might hate your project, right?
Who might be somewhere in between that, that finicky fan.
And so the first step is just identify them
and then start to realize, okay, who might not be a fan
of this project for any reason at all?
Right? So like, if the, if the sponsor has a conflict
with another leader in the organization, it
that could just come with it just
because they, they just don't,
they just don't like each other, you know?
I mean, yeah, people are people, right?
It could be anything.
And so if you are the project manager, right?
Or you're the PMO leader who's advising your project
managers on how to, how to figure the people side out,
this is one of the ways where it's like, have,
make sure everybody's having the private conversation
about the people, which is very uncomfortable for people,
which is why I use animals instead, right?
And say, okay, who might be a snake in the grass here?
And then think about, well, what is their perspective?
Because then as you said, Stewart, then you can figure out,
okay, are they just gonna defend their territory?
Are they just gonna be part of the resistance just
for resistance sake, right?
Are they, like, what is their perspective?
And then you can prepare for, all right,
well what are we gonna do about this?
And sometimes, and I encourage this too, the PM is like,
well, they said to do nothing.
I said, write that down, write that down.
Then the sponsor said, do nothing.
Wait and see, write it down.
Because later if that snake comes up and bite you,
and they go, well, why didn't you see that coming?
You'll be like, we talked about this
and we said, do nothing and wait and see.
It's right here in black and white. You know?
And so, oh yeah. Because we have short term memory loss
problems a lot of times as sponsors.
Absolutely. Uh, absolutely. Uh, a hundred percent.
And, you know, and,
and again, I think it's important, uh, to, to highlight that
the project manager and the PMO, right?
You are there as custodians of a change process
or series as of change processes.
You stay with that change progress process,
usually from the beginning to the end.
You're the only person that lives it day to day.
Your individual delivery resources come in and they go out.
Your stakeholder, you know, your, your sponsor,
he thinks about this once every two weeks when you have your
one hour meeting the rest of the time.
Mm-Hmm. The rest of the time the head's full
of other stuff, right?
So could be, yep. Mm-Hmm.
So, so, um, you know, it, it is important to understand
that stakeholder map, right?
I, I, I like, um, I like that stakeholder matrix
way of putting it as shock.
And that's a really nice way just understanding, you know,
what, what animals do you have around the table?
But, but remember that people just
'cause somebody is a snake now, or a gazelle
or whatever they are, right?
Doesn't mean that's what they'll always be, right?
It just means that's what they are now,
and you can decide, you know, you can actually do things
to change the kind of animal,
or at least the way the animal's behaving.
Yeah. Just like with the, just like with a bear, right?
If you go in with a big stick
and you poke the bear, it's gonna growl,
so don't poke the bear. Right?
Exactly. Yeah. I love that.
And in fact, you know,
since there are clearly some PMO leaders on the line,
I just wanna point out like, so back to that story about
how we were changing the way the whole organization did it.
And I checked in with sponsors
and stuff, I would as assign, I, I assigned a pm a Pro PM
to a sponsor and said to her,
your job is to turn this guy around.
He is against us. He doesn't get it.
He wants us to run this project
because if it fails, then it's on us.
Like, this is what is happening.
I need you to go in with eyes wide open
that this is what is happening.
He is today an enemy
and you need to turn him into a fan.
Are you up for it? And I knew she would be, and she was.
And that's exactly what she did.
So not only did she run the project
and help him be successful with his very risky project,
but also she turned him into a fan.
And so when I, when I would check in with him, the,
the demeanor changed, you know, over time
because he, he was not, he didn't get it at first.
He just, he had never experienced this, this type of thing
before, but he was an ambitious guy
and he really wanted to obviously, you know, do well.
And, um, and, but he was also trying to cover his bases.
Like
I, and, and, and you know, I I, by the way, I,
I love Ed's thing, so give this snake a rat.
I I like that. Um, so that, so that's, that's brilliant.
But, but sometimes, you know what,
you can give the snake a rat.
Uh, you can, you can carefully go around its territory.
You can get someone to shout at it, and,
and it just, it's just not gonna play.
It's gonna try and bite you anyway.
And, you know, sometimes that happens.
And, and at the end of the day, that is, that's another risk
that goes on your risk register at some level, right?
Yes. You, and,
and you say, great, we have a risk that some
of our stakeholders aren't buying in.
Right? And, and you make it visible
and you have a discussion with, with your sponsor,
and you figure out what you do.
Yeah. What are we gonna do about it?
You know? And, and for
Those, it might be, and it might be
that the right answer is that this, that,
that your sponsor will go and, and shoot a snake
and put another animal in there.
Yeah, absolutely. That's a Good outcome.
Yep. And sometimes, you know, there have, I used to think
as a PM that I had to do everything right, that it was up
to me to do everything because I had had really bad sponsors
that did nothing before anybody been there.
And uh, and then I realized like, oh,
when we have this stakeholder analysis
men management matrix in front of people's faces,
and we go, okay, what are we gonna do about this?
Right? Sometimes the best answer is the sponsor has
to do something about it.
They're in the best position to do something about it,
just as you said, Stuart.
And it could be like, listen, you know, you need
to make sure that you take that person to lunch,
that you have a coffee conversation with them over,
you know, over virtually that you understand them,
that you develop a relationship with them,
you know, whatever it is.
Whatever it is, right?
Do whatever you need to do to get the humans to do
what they need to do, when they need to do 'em, right?
That's kind of what you, what your job is as a pm
and our job as PMO leaders is to support our PMs in doing
that and have their backs.
Beautiful. So we've got just a couple of minutes left.
Um, so, uh, so what I'd like to do, so, so Dawn,
is just give you a couple of minutes to, um, tell people
where they can get the book, where they can reach you
if they need help and support beyond the book.
Um, I understand you do bar mitzvahs and golf tournaments.
That's, that's very funny.
Um, So I am pulling up, um,
the, so of course you can find it on Amazon,
but also, um, you can go to this link I'm pulling up now
and I'm gonna drop it in the chat.
Uh, and so the book is available, um,
in, you know, on Amazon and beyond, certainly.
And so I'm gonna drop that in the chat for everyone here.
Hold please. Here we go. There it is.
Um, and if you do get the book
and you do, um, you know, like the book, uh,
please give it your highest star rating possible
and say something nice if you would,
because our publicist, by the way, is killing me with,
you know, Dawn, we need 50 reviews.
So the last time I checked, we had 22 reviews
and we need to get to 50 on Amazon
because as far as media goes
and all that stuff, um,
Amazon is the Google of books he says.
And so anybody that doesn't know me, whatever, will go
to Amazon and go, oh, what are the reviews?
Say, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Now if you have suggestions for the books,
'cause some of you are analysts, right?
And, and even God in heaven would not get five stars from
you, please send me a LinkedIn message
and let me know what it would take
to get your five star review.
I would be really curious about that. I love feedback.
I love, love, love feedback.
So tell me what you really think.
So please invite you to link in with me.
Stewart and I are connected on LinkedIn,
so if you're connected with Stewart, then a friend
of his is a friend of mine, uh, on LinkedIn,
please check it out and I'd be
delighted to hear what you think.
And, um, and you know, your version
of Project Land, tell me more.
So please link in with me. That's the best way to get
And, and stop being cheap guys.
Come on. 20, 20 bucks
or whatever it is for, for 25 years experience.
That's a bargain. It's
9 99 for the ebook.
9 99. Come on, come on. Stop being cheap. 9 99
For the ebook. Yeah.
Uh, by the way, I, I, I dunno, I dunno if, uh,
if anybody here has actually looked at writing a book,
authors never make money from books.
No. Right? It's,
It's used. Yeah, we're the whole
like for real in the whole, right?
Yeah. Because it's such an expensive endeavor. Yep. Mm-hmm,
Absolutely. Um, yeah,
It's a labor of love.
So thank you for saying that to
Her. Yes, it does.
I mean, it costs 10, it costs the authors tens
of thousands, possibly even over a hundred thousand just
to get a book out and launched.
Um, and so, you know, typically, Dawn, I know this is kind
of your motivation, Laura's motivation,
Heather's motivation, right?
Is, is sharing that experience
and giving back to the community at some level.
Yeah, for sure. So please do,
please do support these guys 'cause they are heroes.
Um, the, their knowledge helps, helps us all do better and,
and inspires us all.
So thank you Dawn. Thank you everybody for joining us,
but also for, for jumping in and, uh, being so active
and getting with the spirit of the session.
Really enjoyed the, the interactions, um,
and, uh, you know, a shock as usual.
Nice work, Leo. Like I said, go find a therapist
and, uh, uh,
but, uh, really thank you everybody for joining.
Joan, didn't to see you there, how are you doing?
Um, uh, so thank you all for joining.
Uh, do reach out and follow us on LinkedIn.
Subscribe to our newsletter so that you get, um, uh,
notification for other webinars.
We do two a month, usually a fun one like this, a kind
of uh, uh, deep insight, one like this
and, uh, and then a demo webinar.
So come to those. We always try
and make 'em a little bit fun, a little bit different.
I'm not a big fan of talking heads.
Um, and uh, so thank you everybody for joining.
Dawn a Million. Thanks.
Thank you Stuart for having me.
And, uh, remember everybody, it's about the people.
It's about the people and it's about the
eggs, not the ducks.
Yeah. Which is where we started the conversation. Excellent.
Very good. Thanks folks.