WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.065 --> 00:00:02.725 I'm Stuart again, for anybody who doesn't know me, I'm, 2 00:00:02.825 --> 00:00:05.125 uh, one of the founders and the CEO of Transparent Choice. 3 00:00:05.585 --> 00:00:06.645 Uh, we're a software company 4 00:00:06.865 --> 00:00:09.205 and we do portfolio management slash go 5 00:00:09.715 --> 00:00:11.045 type software, right? 6 00:00:11.045 --> 00:00:13.445 It's really cool. That's not what we're talking about today. 7 00:00:13.895 --> 00:00:15.925 We're gonna be talking about stakeholders, right? 8 00:00:15.925 --> 00:00:19.845 So we're gonna leave the world of, of, uh, governance 9 00:00:19.845 --> 00:00:21.645 and processes and, and tools 10 00:00:21.785 --> 00:00:23.565 and all that kind of stuff behind for a second. 11 00:00:23.865 --> 00:00:26.605 And we're gonna focus on what really makes projects work. 12 00:00:27.355 --> 00:00:29.935 And that's people, right? People make it work. 13 00:00:30.155 --> 00:00:32.615 Now, I dunno, did, does anybody jump in there? 14 00:00:32.615 --> 00:00:34.895 And, and tell me if you follow Stuart Taylor on YouTube. 15 00:00:35.775 --> 00:00:40.115 Um, so Stuart Taylor, um, is, uh, he does, 16 00:00:40.255 --> 00:00:41.715 he does a bunch of, uh, 17 00:00:41.715 --> 00:00:43.515 project management related YouTube videos. 18 00:00:44.175 --> 00:00:46.795 Um, uh, a lot of them are, are, are really good fun. 19 00:00:46.795 --> 00:00:48.355 Some of them are quite serious, some are quite good fun. 20 00:00:48.655 --> 00:00:52.765 But he just did an experiment where he tried 21 00:00:52.765 --> 00:00:54.365 to run a project, right? 22 00:00:54.365 --> 00:00:56.365 So he was creating a new training, operate, 23 00:00:56.865 --> 00:00:59.965 and he, he tried to run that project using 24 00:01:00.755 --> 00:01:02.485 chat GBT as the project manager. 25 00:01:04.365 --> 00:01:07.745 And, um, and it wasn't entirely successful. 26 00:01:08.325 --> 00:01:11.305 It wasn't an entire failure, entirely a failure either. 27 00:01:12.205 --> 00:01:15.495 But for now, I think the conclusion is we still need people. 28 00:01:16.975 --> 00:01:20.425 Okay? So people are what make projects work. 29 00:01:20.765 --> 00:01:25.025 People are also usually what cause projects to fail. 30 00:01:26.325 --> 00:01:30.585 So, um, so I have invited on today, Dawn Mahan. 31 00:01:30.605 --> 00:01:32.025 Now Dawn, if you don't know Dawn, 32 00:01:32.205 --> 00:01:33.865 she is an absolute mega star. 33 00:01:34.525 --> 00:01:39.505 Um, she's, she's, uh, so she does a lot of, you know, 34 00:01:39.745 --> 00:01:41.345 PMO training, project management training. 35 00:01:41.725 --> 00:01:43.385 She does a lot of charity work. 36 00:01:44.165 --> 00:01:47.705 She just actually was doing a charity golf 37 00:01:47.835 --> 00:01:49.105 thing yesterday, right? 38 00:01:49.105 --> 00:01:51.505 Dawn, yay. Um, uh, 39 00:01:51.685 --> 00:01:54.185 she has built houses out in Cambodia. 40 00:01:54.725 --> 00:01:56.345 She has done all kinds of, 41 00:01:56.425 --> 00:01:57.585 I think it was Cambodia, wasn't it? 42 00:01:57.585 --> 00:02:00.225 Yeah. Yeah. Um, so she's done all sorts 43 00:02:00.225 --> 00:02:01.305 of really fascinating things, 44 00:02:01.325 --> 00:02:03.625 but by far, far, far, far, 45 00:02:03.685 --> 00:02:07.895 the most exciting thing she's ever done in her life was, uh, 46 00:02:08.025 --> 00:02:10.535 share a table, uh, next to the pool 47 00:02:10.535 --> 00:02:12.855 with me in Saudi Arabia, right? 48 00:02:13.755 --> 00:02:16.215 Uh, and it was, you, me, there was Laura Barnard there. 49 00:02:16.675 --> 00:02:18.295 Uh, we had, Lee Lambert was there. 50 00:02:18.875 --> 00:02:20.335 Uh, we, who else was there? 51 00:02:20.475 --> 00:02:24.255 We, we had Mo Reb Al Shehe, two times winner 52 00:02:24.315 --> 00:02:27.695 of the PMO Leader of the Year Award, uh, and her husband. 53 00:02:27.795 --> 00:02:28.935 And, and we had a lovely night. 54 00:02:28.935 --> 00:02:31.415 We got the guitar out, which, which was interesting 55 00:02:31.535 --> 00:02:32.735 'cause it only had five strings. 56 00:02:33.515 --> 00:02:37.505 And, uh, anyway, while we're sitting by the pool, Dawn 57 00:02:37.505 --> 00:02:41.105 and I got talking about, uh, her latest book. 58 00:02:42.205 --> 00:02:43.905 And those of you who know me know 59 00:02:43.905 --> 00:02:45.345 that I talk a lot about ducks. 60 00:02:45.775 --> 00:02:48.505 Okay? Why ducks? Well, because, um, 61 00:02:48.935 --> 00:02:51.225 because your executives right, 62 00:02:51.245 --> 00:02:53.185 really don't care about your projects. 63 00:02:53.375 --> 00:02:54.505 They really don't, right? 64 00:02:54.895 --> 00:02:57.105 They don't care if you've got a boy duck or a girl duck. 65 00:02:57.485 --> 00:02:58.855 They don't care about your Gantt charts. 66 00:02:58.855 --> 00:03:00.450 They don't care what methodology you use. 67 00:03:00.450 --> 00:03:01.770 They don't care about any of that stuff. 68 00:03:02.155 --> 00:03:03.845 They don't care if you go boy duck or girl duck. 69 00:03:03.845 --> 00:03:07.045 They just care about eggs, right? The value of the project. 70 00:03:07.105 --> 00:03:08.685 That's the only thing they care about. 71 00:03:09.605 --> 00:03:11.225 And I dare say, we might touch on 72 00:03:11.225 --> 00:03:12.385 that a little bit later on. 73 00:03:13.005 --> 00:03:14.905 Um, uh, but, 74 00:03:14.905 --> 00:03:16.545 but this whole theme of ducks led 75 00:03:16.545 --> 00:03:18.425 to a conversation about other animals. 76 00:03:18.845 --> 00:03:21.665 And of course, you can't talk about other animals without 77 00:03:21.665 --> 00:03:22.785 talking about project land. 78 00:03:23.225 --> 00:03:25.325 Lauren's latest thought, right? 79 00:03:25.465 --> 00:03:28.485 So this is, this is such a creative way 80 00:03:28.705 --> 00:03:30.885 to talk about stakeholders around projects. 81 00:03:31.275 --> 00:03:32.645 It's, it's, it's a load of fun. 82 00:03:33.145 --> 00:03:37.605 Um, but it's also a very kind of practical book, uh, about 83 00:03:37.745 --> 00:03:42.645 how to engage stakeholders, how to, uh, avoid pitfalls, how 84 00:03:42.645 --> 00:03:45.205 to manage, how to manage the snakes, right? 85 00:03:45.205 --> 00:03:48.205 Things like that. Um, so, so we're gonna, 86 00:03:48.205 --> 00:03:50.125 we're gonna take a little wander through Project Land today 87 00:03:50.125 --> 00:03:54.375 with Dawn and, um, uh, hopefully learn a few things. 88 00:03:54.875 --> 00:03:58.095 And as I say, uh, I just wanna shock. I like it. 89 00:03:58.555 --> 00:04:01.815 Um, uh, and hopefully what, we'll, we'll, uh, 90 00:04:01.815 --> 00:04:03.855 hopefully you guys will join in, share some 91 00:04:03.855 --> 00:04:05.375 of your experiences, share some 92 00:04:05.375 --> 00:04:06.815 of the challenges maybe that you've had. 93 00:04:07.195 --> 00:04:10.175 We can get dawn's uh, dawn's thoughts on it. 94 00:04:10.675 --> 00:04:12.295 Uh, but, and I'm gonna start, Dawn, actually 95 00:04:12.295 --> 00:04:15.175 with just a couple of quick questions. 96 00:04:15.595 --> 00:04:17.655 So the first one in the Green Room we were talking about, 97 00:04:18.155 --> 00:04:20.615 um, that quote about a book, uh, 98 00:04:20.625 --> 00:04:22.175 being the distillation of, right? 99 00:04:22.275 --> 00:04:24.095 So, so tell us a little bit about that 100 00:04:24.235 --> 00:04:26.255 and then tell us about kind of where you started, 101 00:04:26.285 --> 00:04:28.735 what was the inspiration for this book, 102 00:04:28.995 --> 00:04:31.175 and then we'll get into kind of the topic from there. 103 00:04:31.725 --> 00:04:33.295 Sure, sure. Hi everybody. 104 00:04:33.295 --> 00:04:35.015 Thanks so much for having me, Stuart. 105 00:04:35.175 --> 00:04:37.455 I love having chats with you. We're always so much fun. 106 00:04:37.715 --> 00:04:41.055 Um, and I just love how aligned we are on so many 107 00:04:41.515 --> 00:04:44.895 of the kind of topics that we like to talk about 108 00:04:44.995 --> 00:04:46.175 and, and help people with. 109 00:04:46.275 --> 00:04:47.415 So, thanks for having me. 110 00:04:47.635 --> 00:04:49.735 So where the inspiration came from, 111 00:04:49.745 --> 00:04:51.055 first of all, I love books. 112 00:04:51.195 --> 00:04:55.375 If anybody else loves books, um, you know, give us a, 113 00:04:55.375 --> 00:04:57.335 give us a yes in the chat there. 114 00:04:57.535 --> 00:04:59.615 I love books because I grew up in a small town, 115 00:04:59.835 --> 00:05:02.815 and the library basically saved my life, um, 116 00:05:03.215 --> 00:05:05.575 because I was bored outta my mind. 117 00:05:06.075 --> 00:05:10.055 And so books were a way to escape, uh, for me and learn. 118 00:05:10.155 --> 00:05:12.775 And I'm just, I became a voracious leader 119 00:05:12.915 --> 00:05:14.095 at a very young age. 120 00:05:14.155 --> 00:05:18.335 And look at this, Amy, Jenny, she, Tabitha, justice Ryan. 121 00:05:18.995 --> 00:05:21.735 Yes, Annette. So we have some book lovers here, too. 122 00:05:21.995 --> 00:05:24.095 Yay, ed. Thank you, Mahesh. 123 00:05:24.155 --> 00:05:27.575 So, um, yeah, so books definitely, 124 00:05:28.205 --> 00:05:30.375 I've been a big fan for a long, long time. 125 00:05:30.635 --> 00:05:33.895 And in fact, I, I tend to have multiple books 126 00:05:33.895 --> 00:05:36.095 that I'm reading at once at different times of day. 127 00:05:36.195 --> 00:05:38.295 So I have morning books, I have evening books, 128 00:05:38.535 --> 00:05:40.255 I have kind of day books. 129 00:05:40.515 --> 00:05:44.175 Um, and so what happened, which was wild to me, 130 00:05:44.675 --> 00:05:48.845 is back in about 2010, I was in Chicago at a, 131 00:05:49.385 --> 00:05:50.605 um, at a client. 132 00:05:51.305 --> 00:05:55.725 And in Chicago, this group was a very low maturity 133 00:05:56.325 --> 00:05:58.605 organization as far as projects went. 134 00:05:58.785 --> 00:06:02.925 So the president of the company, ha, was new there, knew me, 135 00:06:03.505 --> 00:06:06.365 looked around and was like, these people don't know how 136 00:06:06.365 --> 00:06:07.925 to operate projects. 137 00:06:07.955 --> 00:06:10.165 They, they don't get it. They're wide-eyed. 138 00:06:10.165 --> 00:06:13.085 They don't understand anything about, when I say, well, 139 00:06:13.085 --> 00:06:14.165 when can you get this done? 140 00:06:14.235 --> 00:06:16.805 Like, create a schedule, they have no idea 141 00:06:17.555 --> 00:06:18.645 what to do, right? 142 00:06:18.745 --> 00:06:20.525 So he said, can you help me out? I said, sure. 143 00:06:20.525 --> 00:06:22.965 So he flew me to Chicago, um, along with the, 144 00:06:22.965 --> 00:06:24.285 Just, just to be clear, Dawn, right? 145 00:06:24.425 --> 00:06:26.885 So yeah, we have some Brits on the call. Yes. 146 00:06:26.885 --> 00:06:29.885 So a, a schedule is what we would call a schedule. 147 00:06:29.935 --> 00:06:31.605 Let's see if we could get Dawn speaking. 148 00:06:31.855 --> 00:06:33.765 Thank you English language by the end of the call. 149 00:06:34.135 --> 00:06:35.845 Let's give it a go, folks. Let's see if we could just 150 00:06:36.285 --> 00:06:37.925 schedule pick her up and just keep her schedule. 151 00:06:37.925 --> 00:06:39.165 There you go. That's it. Yeah. 152 00:06:39.415 --> 00:06:42.005 Thank you. Thank you. So anyway, I'm in this room 153 00:06:42.185 --> 00:06:43.605 of very seasoned people. 154 00:06:43.675 --> 00:06:46.245 Most of the people had worked here for over 20 years. 155 00:06:46.945 --> 00:06:49.565 And, um, and the one 156 00:06:49.565 --> 00:06:52.485 of the gentlemen named Jermaine looked up at me in the 157 00:06:52.485 --> 00:06:54.565 middle of class and he goes, Dawn, where's the book? 158 00:06:54.585 --> 00:06:58.215 And I said, what? And he said, Dawn, where's the book? 159 00:06:58.375 --> 00:07:00.375 I want the book with all the stories you tell 160 00:07:00.635 --> 00:07:03.495 and all the tips on, I want it on my desk. 161 00:07:03.815 --> 00:07:06.255 I want it with me because you're gonna go away. 162 00:07:06.255 --> 00:07:07.815 And I, and I'm gonna, and I want that. 163 00:07:07.835 --> 00:07:09.415 And I'm like, are you kidding me? 164 00:07:09.445 --> 00:07:12.855 Like, you would want a book of my, of what? 165 00:07:13.435 --> 00:07:16.055 And so it was, it was my turn to be confused. 166 00:07:16.275 --> 00:07:20.535 And, uh, so anyway, he planted the seed in like 2010. 167 00:07:20.715 --> 00:07:22.615 And so it had been sort of hanging out there 168 00:07:22.675 --> 00:07:25.055 for a while, you know, ever since then. 169 00:07:26.085 --> 00:07:27.585 That's cool. That's so cool. 170 00:07:28.005 --> 00:07:31.585 And, and it, it's funny how often it starts like that. 171 00:07:31.865 --> 00:07:35.025 I was talking to Laura and, you know, I think Laura Barnard, 172 00:07:35.245 --> 00:07:37.745 uh, uh, and, um, yeah. 173 00:07:37.885 --> 00:07:39.825 And so her book actually lives on my, 174 00:07:39.885 --> 00:07:41.225 on my nightstand, right? 175 00:07:41.285 --> 00:07:43.145 So, so every night I go to bed with Laura, 176 00:07:43.275 --> 00:07:45.105 which isn't something I should say. 177 00:07:45.545 --> 00:07:46.585 'cause her husband's bigger than I 178 00:07:46.585 --> 00:07:47.905 ever, stronger than I ever, right? 179 00:07:47.925 --> 00:07:49.025 But hey, there you go. 180 00:07:49.965 --> 00:07:52.785 Um, so, but, uh, 181 00:07:52.845 --> 00:07:54.465 but you know, it's not a, it's not a 182 00:07:54.465 --> 00:07:55.625 dissimilar story, right? 183 00:07:55.685 --> 00:07:58.345 It, it's the fact that, that there's so much experience 184 00:07:58.345 --> 00:08:00.265 that you, you have that Laura has, and, 185 00:08:00.365 --> 00:08:02.545 and, uh, uh, you know, he was just, 186 00:08:02.675 --> 00:08:04.865 she's got a book coming out as well, you know, she, 187 00:08:04.865 --> 00:08:07.545 people are so much experience, real world experience. 188 00:08:08.045 --> 00:08:10.905 And, and what you've done in, in this one i i, 189 00:08:11.835 --> 00:08:14.125 that I really enjoyed is you found a voice 190 00:08:15.215 --> 00:08:18.265 that makes it very approachable, right? 191 00:08:18.265 --> 00:08:21.765 Because stakeholder engagement, you know, it can be, yeah, 192 00:08:21.765 --> 00:08:22.765 we all know we should do it. 193 00:08:22.965 --> 00:08:26.685 I, I spent three hours working with one of my guys today on, 194 00:08:26.985 --> 00:08:28.645 you know, how are we gonna help our partners do 195 00:08:28.645 --> 00:08:29.845 stakeholder engagement better? 196 00:08:30.505 --> 00:08:32.245 And, you know, it can be a little dry 197 00:08:32.245 --> 00:08:35.685 and a little, um, you know, yeah, 198 00:08:35.705 --> 00:08:36.965 we know we're gonna think about the whiff 199 00:08:37.065 --> 00:08:38.325 and this the other, but, 200 00:08:38.665 --> 00:08:39.725 but what you've done in the book 201 00:08:39.725 --> 00:08:40.885 is bring it, bring it alive. 202 00:08:40.905 --> 00:08:44.765 So, so how did you come up the idea of, of using animals? 203 00:08:45.345 --> 00:08:47.445 Uh, actually first thing, has anybody read the book? 204 00:08:47.445 --> 00:08:48.565 Just bang in the, in the chat. 205 00:08:48.665 --> 00:08:50.565 I'm not expecting anybody to have read it. Um, 206 00:08:51.195 --> 00:08:52.195 This time, Nick. Oh, I know. 207 00:08:52.195 --> 00:08:54.085 At least one person has read it 208 00:08:54.085 --> 00:08:55.365 Here for James. 209 00:08:55.365 --> 00:08:57.205 James is a, yeah, we, there we go. 210 00:08:57.205 --> 00:08:59.045 We got a bunch of people who've read it. Fantastic. 211 00:08:59.045 --> 00:09:00.725 Yeah. James, you got through it. All right. 212 00:09:00.725 --> 00:09:01.885 Awesome. Great. 213 00:09:02.025 --> 00:09:05.525 Oh, Ja, James devours books. He's brilliant. Um, awesome. 214 00:09:05.785 --> 00:09:07.365 Uh, not finished yet. Okay. 215 00:09:07.365 --> 00:09:09.205 So we have a couple in progress. Great. 216 00:09:10.285 --> 00:09:11.925 Excellent. Ryan's out on Amazon as we speak. 217 00:09:11.925 --> 00:09:13.045 Good stuff. Oh, 218 00:09:13.045 --> 00:09:14.045 Thank you, Ryan. 219 00:09:14.545 --> 00:09:16.965 So, uh, so you had mentioned about the Green Room, 220 00:09:16.965 --> 00:09:18.725 what we were talking about, and I, uh, I, 221 00:09:18.745 --> 00:09:19.885 and I just wanna highlight that. 222 00:09:19.985 --> 00:09:24.245 So I met this, this other author, um, named Nick Hutchinson. 223 00:09:24.585 --> 00:09:27.245 So any of you guys that are big book readers too. 224 00:09:27.545 --> 00:09:30.805 So he wrote Rise of the Reader, 225 00:09:31.745 --> 00:09:36.685 and in that book, he talks about how he was, um, 226 00:09:37.065 --> 00:09:40.365 you know, he realized that books were a way to get access 227 00:09:40.385 --> 00:09:41.765 to people and their brains 228 00:09:42.545 --> 00:09:46.085 and decades of experience for 20 bucks, you know, or quid 229 00:09:46.105 --> 00:09:47.125 or whatever, right? 230 00:09:47.585 --> 00:09:51.805 And so, uh, so I, I thought, you know, that is so true 231 00:09:52.075 --> 00:09:56.245 that you can get access to all these people that have 232 00:09:57.025 --> 00:10:00.565 all of this experience that they condense decades into, 233 00:10:00.825 --> 00:10:03.325 you know, 200 pages, 250 pages, or whatever it is. 234 00:10:03.785 --> 00:10:06.645 And, um, and so I, I was on a webinar recently 235 00:10:06.645 --> 00:10:08.845 and they were like, Hey, you know, why'd you write the book? 236 00:10:08.865 --> 00:10:11.565 And I told, you know, the story about Jermaine in Chicago, 237 00:10:12.105 --> 00:10:15.285 and I said, you know, but I also get asked to for people 238 00:10:15.285 --> 00:10:17.605 to pick my brain a lot, right? 239 00:10:17.625 --> 00:10:21.085 And it was like, instead now it's like anybody can just go 240 00:10:21.085 --> 00:10:24.405 get the book and, you know, read it at your leisure. 241 00:10:24.825 --> 00:10:27.005 Um, and if you're an ebook person 242 00:10:27.385 --> 00:10:30.805 or a paperback person, you know, I've become both, right? 243 00:10:30.825 --> 00:10:33.845 For different reasons. Like, I got Nick's book on, uh, 244 00:10:33.865 --> 00:10:35.845 as an ebook because I was traveling a lot, 245 00:10:35.905 --> 00:10:39.445 and I did a lot of I 127 highlights in this book. 246 00:10:39.875 --> 00:10:43.255 Like, 'cause it counts. It isn't that crazy? Yeah. 247 00:10:43.255 --> 00:10:45.975 So, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, he had wellness tips 248 00:10:46.155 --> 00:10:47.935 for health, wealth and happiness in there. 249 00:10:47.955 --> 00:10:49.975 So there were a lot of highlights in that area too. 250 00:10:50.115 --> 00:10:53.175 But, um, you know, so anyway, rise of the Reader by Nick, 251 00:10:53.235 --> 00:10:56.095 uh, Hutchinson, and he talks about how to get the most 252 00:10:56.095 --> 00:10:58.295 of the books you do read, which I was like, 253 00:10:58.315 --> 00:11:00.415 why didn't I ever think of this so smart? 254 00:11:00.955 --> 00:11:02.935 Anyway, so I just wanted to to highlight 255 00:11:02.935 --> 00:11:04.415 that steward since you had mentioned 256 00:11:04.415 --> 00:11:05.575 about what we were talking 257 00:11:05.575 --> 00:11:06.575 About. Yeah, yeah. No, 258 00:11:06.575 --> 00:11:07.815 no, that, that's fantastic. 259 00:11:08.235 --> 00:11:11.815 So, so, so give us, give us a really high level overview of, 260 00:11:11.995 --> 00:11:13.055 you know, why animals. 261 00:11:13.565 --> 00:11:16.535 Yeah. Why animals, what do they mean, right? 262 00:11:16.555 --> 00:11:18.095 What's, what, there's a really, 263 00:11:18.365 --> 00:11:19.655 it's a really fun metaphor, right? 264 00:11:19.675 --> 00:11:21.855 So just talk us through the metaphor at a high level. 265 00:11:22.245 --> 00:11:25.495 Yeah. So what happened is, you know, I'm, I was starting 266 00:11:25.555 --> 00:11:27.615 to try to figure out, okay, all 267 00:11:27.615 --> 00:11:29.055 of this project experience I had, 268 00:11:29.095 --> 00:11:30.695 I have PMO director experience, 269 00:11:31.235 --> 00:11:35.935 and I kept finding myself being forced into, I mean, 270 00:11:35.935 --> 00:11:38.615 invited into low maturity organizations 271 00:11:39.025 --> 00:11:41.255 where they literally have no idea how this works. 272 00:11:41.605 --> 00:11:44.895 None. And so I thought, well, what's a fun way 273 00:11:45.675 --> 00:11:47.135 to talk about the players? 274 00:11:47.475 --> 00:11:48.775 To talk about the people 275 00:11:49.485 --> 00:11:51.175 that people aren't gonna get offended. 276 00:11:51.175 --> 00:11:54.125 Because if you create avatars and you like, call one Fred, 277 00:11:54.865 --> 00:11:57.845 and they're the snake, you know, essentially the saboteur 278 00:11:58.185 --> 00:12:00.445 of the project, then some really nice guy named 279 00:12:00.445 --> 00:12:01.605 Fred is gonna get mad at you. 280 00:12:01.865 --> 00:12:05.725 So I was like, you can't be mad at a snake for being a snake 281 00:12:05.725 --> 00:12:06.845 because a snake is a snake, 282 00:12:06.845 --> 00:12:08.165 and that's just how they operate, right? 283 00:12:08.465 --> 00:12:10.125 So I thought, all right, well, let's start 284 00:12:10.125 --> 00:12:11.565 to, let's just see. 285 00:12:11.825 --> 00:12:15.445 And so I played with the idea of these animal avatars, 286 00:12:15.665 --> 00:12:17.925 and um, and it started to work. 287 00:12:18.775 --> 00:12:21.115 It started to work. And so, like on the front cover 288 00:12:21.215 --> 00:12:24.355 of our practical project management training is a PA 289 00:12:24.355 --> 00:12:26.195 beautiful picture of this t of a tiger face. 290 00:12:26.855 --> 00:12:30.785 And, and when we start practical project management school, 291 00:12:31.485 --> 00:12:33.905 um, as opposed to theoretical version, right? 292 00:12:33.905 --> 00:12:36.505 This is the real, the real world stuff where we get real, 293 00:12:36.815 --> 00:12:40.145 real in class, you know, about how the people operate, 294 00:12:40.975 --> 00:12:43.265 that I ask them, you know, what's your word? 295 00:12:43.265 --> 00:12:46.185 Like when you see this picture of this beautiful tiger, 296 00:12:47.475 --> 00:12:51.005 what word comes to mind first when you think about, um, 297 00:12:51.305 --> 00:12:54.405 the world of projects that I call project land? 298 00:12:54.665 --> 00:12:57.325 And you, and it's amazing what all the words are 299 00:12:57.325 --> 00:12:58.885 that come out of it, you know? 300 00:12:59.345 --> 00:13:02.965 And, and so, um, so we started to embrace the tiger, 301 00:13:03.025 --> 00:13:05.205 and that's my logo for PMO training.com 302 00:13:05.205 --> 00:13:07.525 and all of our divisions is that, 303 00:13:07.745 --> 00:13:09.165 is this sort of digital tiger. 304 00:13:09.785 --> 00:13:11.765 And so it was like, okay, we're embracing the tiger 305 00:13:11.865 --> 00:13:13.805 as the animal avatar for the project manager, 306 00:13:13.905 --> 00:13:15.485 but then it's sort of ballooned from there. 307 00:13:15.515 --> 00:13:19.085 Well, if the tiger is the project manager, then the lion has 308 00:13:19.085 --> 00:13:21.885 to be the boss, the sponsor of the project as well, right? 309 00:13:22.385 --> 00:13:25.485 And, um, and that has resonated also when 310 00:13:25.485 --> 00:13:26.565 we do sponsor school. 311 00:13:26.585 --> 00:13:28.725 So we have this gorgeous fierce 312 00:13:29.595 --> 00:13:31.885 lion picture right on the front, 313 00:13:31.985 --> 00:13:33.565 and I'm like, y'all are the lion. 314 00:13:34.265 --> 00:13:35.445 So when you roar, 315 00:13:36.155 --> 00:13:39.445 then all the creatures are on edge in project land. 316 00:13:39.705 --> 00:13:42.205 And it's like, then the executives are like, oh, 317 00:13:42.745 --> 00:13:43.805 you know what, that's true. 318 00:13:44.315 --> 00:13:47.245 Like, even though they're like, I'm a nice person, you know, 319 00:13:47.325 --> 00:13:49.525 I don't understand why people are intimidated by me. 320 00:13:49.825 --> 00:13:51.685 I'm like, maybe it's not you. Maybe it's your role. 321 00:13:51.685 --> 00:13:54.085 Maybe it's your position. Maybe it's the authority you have. 322 00:13:54.385 --> 00:13:57.725 So you have to be aware that the interpretation 323 00:13:57.725 --> 00:14:00.325 that the rest of the creatures may have of you is 324 00:14:00.325 --> 00:14:04.835 that you are a lion and you're pretty darn scary, right? 325 00:14:04.935 --> 00:14:07.435 And so if you get upset and you get passionate 326 00:14:07.455 --> 00:14:08.635 and you, you know, like, 327 00:14:08.635 --> 00:14:10.875 please check yourself in the right way, 328 00:14:10.875 --> 00:14:12.795 sometimes there's an appropriate time to do that. 329 00:14:13.135 --> 00:14:15.475 And other times, you know, if you say, 330 00:14:15.855 --> 00:14:18.035 if you roar at somebody when they say the project is 331 00:14:18.135 --> 00:14:19.595 red, you guess what? 332 00:14:20.095 --> 00:14:24.995 It will be green forevermore. You'll never get Just 333 00:14:24.995 --> 00:14:25.995 Say that again. 334 00:14:26.035 --> 00:14:28.635 Just say that again, because that's so important, 335 00:14:29.245 --> 00:14:30.245 Isn't it? I mean, this 336 00:14:30.245 --> 00:14:32.395 is, and this is what we teach the sponsors, 337 00:14:32.545 --> 00:14:36.835 like your reaction sponsors to when people come to you 338 00:14:36.835 --> 00:14:39.435 with a problem needs to be, how can I help? 339 00:14:40.255 --> 00:14:43.235 How can I help? Right? That's all you have to say. 340 00:14:43.235 --> 00:14:45.475 Because usually somebody knows how you can help 341 00:14:46.625 --> 00:14:48.925 if you're the sponsor and they can tell you, 342 00:14:49.065 --> 00:14:50.685 how can I, how you can help. 343 00:14:51.155 --> 00:14:52.805 Like, listen, you know, I tried this, 344 00:14:52.925 --> 00:14:54.125 I tried this, I tried that. 345 00:14:54.425 --> 00:14:55.525 Do you have any other ideas? 346 00:14:56.145 --> 00:14:57.565 And then instead of saying, well, 347 00:14:57.565 --> 00:14:59.485 you should have tried this, you can say, 348 00:14:59.675 --> 00:15:02.625 have you considered this other thing? 349 00:15:02.965 --> 00:15:05.425 And they was, no, I didn't consider it. Let me go try that. 350 00:15:05.555 --> 00:15:08.745 Right? And, um, and, and I'll let you know how it works out. 351 00:15:08.885 --> 00:15:12.305 And so being helpful is what we want our sponsors 352 00:15:12.305 --> 00:15:13.305 to be not clearly. 353 00:15:13.365 --> 00:15:15.345 So, so, so is the, so is the lion morphing 354 00:15:15.345 --> 00:15:16.665 into a wise old owl? 355 00:15:18.325 --> 00:15:22.825 So we do have, uh, animal avatars for the steering team. 356 00:15:23.445 --> 00:15:26.505 So in the chat, y'all, if, um, imagine 357 00:15:26.695 --> 00:15:28.145 what your steering team members, 358 00:15:28.495 --> 00:15:30.345 what the animal avatars might be for those, 359 00:15:30.925 --> 00:15:33.025 if you have not read the book yet 360 00:15:33.085 --> 00:15:34.345 or gotten to that chapter, 361 00:15:34.765 --> 00:15:36.105 so tell us what you think they are. 362 00:15:36.205 --> 00:15:39.465 And, and Stewart just gave one away the owl. 363 00:15:39.885 --> 00:15:44.585 So what I also find in low maturity organizations is 364 00:15:44.615 --> 00:15:48.145 that they don't know when they need a steering team. 365 00:15:49.055 --> 00:15:51.475 So either there are way too many steering teams 366 00:15:52.255 --> 00:15:55.275 and you know, there are way too many leaders engaged on way 367 00:15:55.275 --> 00:15:57.515 too many projects that they don't need to be engaged on, 368 00:15:58.055 --> 00:15:59.755 you know, or they're, 369 00:15:59.905 --> 00:16:02.035 they don't have a steering team when they need one. 370 00:16:03.305 --> 00:16:07.915 And so I find that teaching sponsors how 371 00:16:07.915 --> 00:16:10.275 to sniff out when they need a steering team 372 00:16:10.455 --> 00:16:13.835 and who they then need on the steering team is important 373 00:16:13.835 --> 00:16:16.595 because some cultures are very inclusive 374 00:16:16.775 --> 00:16:18.075 and they're like, oh, well, so 375 00:16:18.075 --> 00:16:19.555 and so is gonna get upset 376 00:16:19.575 --> 00:16:20.795 if they're not on the steering team. 377 00:16:20.815 --> 00:16:22.755 If, if such and such is on the steering team. 378 00:16:23.025 --> 00:16:25.235 It's like, it's like when you're planning a wedding 379 00:16:25.335 --> 00:16:26.595 and you're like, well, you gotta cut 380 00:16:26.595 --> 00:16:27.715 the family tree off here. 381 00:16:28.095 --> 00:16:30.715 You know, and like, all the cousins at this level have 382 00:16:30.715 --> 00:16:31.955 to be invited, or none 383 00:16:31.955 --> 00:16:33.875 of the cousins at this level have to be invited, right? 384 00:16:33.875 --> 00:16:38.795 It's like the same kind of culture, which is really Mahesh 385 00:16:38.795 --> 00:16:39.795 Says, I love that. 386 00:16:39.795 --> 00:16:41.435 I love that. Mahesh, you asked, 387 00:16:41.585 --> 00:16:43.555 what animals do you see on project straight committees? 388 00:16:43.585 --> 00:16:44.955 Mahe, straight and rat 389 00:16:45.395 --> 00:16:46.395 Straight. Nice, 390 00:16:46.395 --> 00:16:50.395 nice. So, um, he must also be a mob movie fan. 391 00:16:52.775 --> 00:16:56.035 So, um, so the owl, you know, if, if you think about 392 00:16:56.345 --> 00:16:58.635 what are the projects that need a steering team? 393 00:16:58.815 --> 00:17:00.635 And I, and I really want, you know, 394 00:17:01.255 --> 00:17:03.035 in high maturity organizations, 395 00:17:03.095 --> 00:17:05.475 we are very thoughtful about this, right? 396 00:17:05.575 --> 00:17:09.395 We are the ones, we are, we are thinking about, okay, if 397 00:17:10.615 --> 00:17:13.395 we have the 80 20 rule, right? 398 00:17:13.905 --> 00:17:17.035 What I'm hoping is that the right sponsor was assigned, 399 00:17:17.035 --> 00:17:20.275 first of all, who can make 80% of the decisions. 400 00:17:21.915 --> 00:17:25.375 And in ca cases where they need help 401 00:17:25.555 --> 00:17:27.775 to make the other 20% of the decisions, 402 00:17:28.195 --> 00:17:30.815 that's when you know you need a steering team, right? 403 00:17:30.835 --> 00:17:34.575 So it could be geographically dispersed projects, right? 404 00:17:34.895 --> 00:17:37.175 Projects where there's a big component 405 00:17:37.445 --> 00:17:40.615 that isn't in the sponsor's wheelhouse, right? 406 00:17:40.725 --> 00:17:42.655 Like for instance, you know, 407 00:17:42.655 --> 00:17:44.855 there might be a big software component, 408 00:17:45.355 --> 00:17:48.015 but it might be a big business process component too. 409 00:17:48.355 --> 00:17:50.285 And you can have a steering team of one. 410 00:17:50.985 --> 00:17:52.365 And some people are like, what do you mean? 411 00:17:52.365 --> 00:17:54.565 And they're like, you can have a steering team of one. 412 00:17:54.625 --> 00:17:57.045 Yes, you can. And that is highly appropriate 413 00:17:57.105 --> 00:17:58.485 and it's happened many, many times 414 00:17:59.185 --> 00:18:00.565 and it can work really, really well. 415 00:18:00.785 --> 00:18:02.845 So, um, so you know, thinking about that, 416 00:18:02.985 --> 00:18:06.565 but what I, there's the like authority side of 417 00:18:06.585 --> 00:18:07.965 how you choose a steering team. 418 00:18:08.465 --> 00:18:11.765 The steering team members, well, you know, if you have, uh, 419 00:18:11.905 --> 00:18:13.605 an engineer and a quality 420 00:18:13.865 --> 00:18:17.245 and they're like kind of 50 50 on the, the work 421 00:18:17.305 --> 00:18:21.255 of the project, but really, you know, the, 422 00:18:21.915 --> 00:18:26.095 the engineer is the one that reports the executive boss. 423 00:18:26.645 --> 00:18:28.855 Like, this is exactly what happened to a client of ours 424 00:18:29.145 --> 00:18:32.215 where they had to choose between the two guys, like, 425 00:18:32.215 --> 00:18:33.495 which one of you is gonna be the sponsor? 426 00:18:33.715 --> 00:18:36.135 And I said, and I totally meant it, either one 427 00:18:36.135 --> 00:18:37.815 of you would make a great sponsor for this 428 00:18:38.015 --> 00:18:40.535 'cause it's kind of 50 50 on the, on the work content. 429 00:18:40.955 --> 00:18:42.415 And so I said, you know, so they said, 430 00:18:42.415 --> 00:18:43.495 we're gonna be co-sponsors. 431 00:18:45.755 --> 00:18:47.585 Thank God there wasn't video in those days. 432 00:18:47.905 --> 00:18:50.425 I was like, no, anything 433 00:18:50.565 --> 00:18:53.585 but that co-sponsors is a recipe for disaster. 434 00:18:54.505 --> 00:18:55.505 Absolutely. Right? 435 00:18:55.965 --> 00:18:58.625 So when, yeah, a hundred percent in tools like yours, 436 00:18:58.775 --> 00:19:02.785 there's like one name that can go in the column, right? 437 00:19:02.925 --> 00:19:07.585 That's what we want. We want one name to go in the column. 438 00:19:07.725 --> 00:19:11.265 And I even have a story in my book about 439 00:19:11.725 --> 00:19:15.185 how I was sitting in this, uh, in this organization 440 00:19:15.605 --> 00:19:18.025 and the CEO looked across the table at me 441 00:19:18.045 --> 00:19:20.345 and said, I need one throat to choke. 442 00:19:20.925 --> 00:19:24.835 And I'm like, did he just really say that? Yes. 443 00:19:24.865 --> 00:19:25.875 Yeah. Really 444 00:19:25.975 --> 00:19:26.975 Did. And, and, 445 00:19:26.975 --> 00:19:28.075 but I thought, oh, yes, 446 00:19:28.105 --> 00:19:29.435 that is, that is it though. 447 00:19:29.465 --> 00:19:30.795 That is really, I mean, 448 00:19:31.385 --> 00:19:33.635 Yeah, I, I mean the whole, the whole, at the end 449 00:19:33.635 --> 00:19:35.465 of the day, that's the point 450 00:19:35.465 --> 00:19:37.865 of an executive sponsor is to be accountable. 451 00:19:38.575 --> 00:19:40.555 Yes. It's, you know, the business case is 452 00:19:40.655 --> 00:19:42.275 for project is their business case. 453 00:19:43.135 --> 00:19:45.075 Yes. They are the ones who have the, the, 454 00:19:45.075 --> 00:19:46.475 the authority, right? 455 00:19:46.475 --> 00:19:50.345 The positional authority to make things happen. Right? 456 00:19:50.525 --> 00:19:53.145 That's what they are for, is to be accountable. 457 00:19:53.145 --> 00:19:56.425 They are there to be the throat that gets choked. 458 00:19:56.685 --> 00:19:59.145 And, and trust me, they get paid for it. Okay? Yeah. 459 00:19:59.145 --> 00:20:01.745 So don't feel bad for them. Don't feel bad for them. 460 00:20:01.765 --> 00:20:03.765 That's what they're there for. Um, 461 00:20:04.345 --> 00:20:06.725 and uh, so, so I'm really interested, right? 462 00:20:06.925 --> 00:20:08.485 'cause we, we've had a few elephants. 463 00:20:08.625 --> 00:20:10.525 Leo, may you need to go get some therapy. 464 00:20:11.465 --> 00:20:14.885 Um, right. 465 00:20:15.925 --> 00:20:18.925 I mean, hippo sheep, lots of sheep. 466 00:20:21.205 --> 00:20:22.885 I love it. I love it. Um, these 467 00:20:22.885 --> 00:20:23.885 Are brilliant. These are 468 00:20:23.885 --> 00:20:24.645 brilliant. A fox, 469 00:20:24.715 --> 00:20:25.715 It's great. Yeah. 470 00:20:25.715 --> 00:20:27.965 Lots of bears. We got lots of bears in there. 471 00:20:28.065 --> 00:20:31.445 Uh, so, so do you know what I, when I was walking across to 472 00:20:31.445 --> 00:20:34.925 before we started this, I was thinking, okay, as, as, 473 00:20:34.985 --> 00:20:38.885 as the CEO of a business, what animal 474 00:20:40.975 --> 00:20:43.155 do I think my team sees me as? 475 00:20:43.855 --> 00:20:45.075 Ooh, there's a good question. 476 00:20:45.995 --> 00:20:47.015 It just got me thinking. 477 00:20:47.085 --> 00:20:50.405 And, and, and actually, I, I have to say that half the time 478 00:20:51.125 --> 00:20:53.565 I hope it's that kind of wise owl. 479 00:20:54.205 --> 00:20:57.045 The other half of the time I'm the bear. Mm. 480 00:20:57.045 --> 00:20:58.405 Because you're gonna, you're gonna poke 481 00:20:58.405 --> 00:20:59.445 me and you're gonna get a growl. 482 00:20:59.645 --> 00:21:00.765 'cause if you come to me with something 483 00:21:00.765 --> 00:21:01.885 stupid, you're gonna get a growl. 484 00:21:02.225 --> 00:21:05.045 Mm. I don't bring me problems. Yes. Right. 485 00:21:05.045 --> 00:21:07.645 But don't bring me a problem and then spend, you know, 486 00:21:07.665 --> 00:21:09.325 10 minutes telling me all the 487 00:21:09.325 --> 00:21:10.645 technical detail of your problem. 488 00:21:11.245 --> 00:21:12.645 'cause that's not my job. Right. 489 00:21:12.645 --> 00:21:15.805 Right. Um, so, so this is, so this is part of what, 490 00:21:15.805 --> 00:21:17.605 where, where we're, we're gonna go with the conversation, 491 00:21:17.685 --> 00:21:20.765 I think is how do, how do we engage with those lions 492 00:21:21.345 --> 00:21:22.565 to get the most outta them? 493 00:21:23.075 --> 00:21:25.085 Yeah. Right? Because they are lions. 494 00:21:25.345 --> 00:21:27.165 I'm a bear, I am a bear. Right? 495 00:21:27.545 --> 00:21:30.135 That's my job is to be a bear. Right. 496 00:21:30.135 --> 00:21:31.935 Or a lion or whatever you wanna call me. Right? 497 00:21:32.475 --> 00:21:34.895 Um, the bear sort of suits my 498 00:21:35.485 --> 00:21:36.895 side on profile a little better. 499 00:21:37.195 --> 00:21:38.775 Oh, please. But too much honey. 500 00:21:40.555 --> 00:21:42.815 But, um, but, uh, but, but, 501 00:21:42.955 --> 00:21:43.975 but the point is, right, 502 00:21:44.715 --> 00:21:46.895 you can affect the behavior of that bear. 503 00:21:46.995 --> 00:21:49.135 If you go and poke the bear, he's gonna growl at you 504 00:21:49.135 --> 00:21:50.255 and he's gonna take a swipe. 505 00:21:50.525 --> 00:21:53.295 Yeah. But if you go, if you go in prepared 506 00:21:53.475 --> 00:21:54.935 and you treat the bear with respect, 507 00:21:55.075 --> 00:21:57.015 and you give it what it needs, right? 508 00:21:57.015 --> 00:21:58.175 That bear is gonna roll over 509 00:21:58.175 --> 00:21:59.615 and let you rub its tummy all day long. 510 00:22:00.645 --> 00:22:02.375 Yeah. Absolutely. 511 00:22:02.515 --> 00:22:04.695 Uh, so, so, so let, let's kind 512 00:22:04.695 --> 00:22:05.975 of go there just for a minute, right? 513 00:22:06.035 --> 00:22:08.655 Let, let's stay with the, with the, the senior leadership 514 00:22:08.655 --> 00:22:10.975 and the, you know, just so the, the steering committee 515 00:22:11.035 --> 00:22:13.415 and the, and the, the, uh, sponsor, 516 00:22:14.075 --> 00:22:15.375 Oh, you just said a bad word. 517 00:22:15.755 --> 00:22:18.375 Oh no, sorry. Tell me why it's a bad word. 518 00:22:19.535 --> 00:22:22.795 So there's this great quote that I put in the book too, 519 00:22:23.055 --> 00:22:26.755 you know, that committees, uh, it was by Milton Burl, right? 520 00:22:27.435 --> 00:22:31.715 C it, it's something like, um, committees, uh, burn hours 521 00:22:32.415 --> 00:22:35.515 or take minutes and burn hours, like something like that. 522 00:22:35.895 --> 00:22:38.075 Uh, we'll have to find it. And, um, so it's one 523 00:22:38.075 --> 00:22:39.115 of you that have the book. 524 00:22:39.215 --> 00:22:41.235 You can find it, the Milton Borough co quote 525 00:22:41.235 --> 00:22:42.355 and share it in here if you want. 526 00:22:42.355 --> 00:22:44.915 Perfectly. So it's not, I don't, because I'm paraphrasing, 527 00:22:45.375 --> 00:22:47.995 but, um, so yeah, the bad word steering committee. 528 00:22:48.295 --> 00:22:50.275 And it's because, it's 529 00:22:50.275 --> 00:22:53.235 because committees, we don't run project 530 00:22:53.295 --> 00:22:54.435 by committee, right? 531 00:22:54.435 --> 00:22:55.875 Because the whole accountability problem. 532 00:22:56.255 --> 00:22:58.995 So when I work in nonprofits, there are a lot 533 00:22:58.995 --> 00:23:00.475 of committees, right? 534 00:23:00.895 --> 00:23:02.755 And so they think, oh, it's a steering committee. 535 00:23:02.755 --> 00:23:05.075 They're like, would you ever like to get this project done? 536 00:23:05.205 --> 00:23:07.555 Would you like to see it get done? Ever? Oh, okay. 537 00:23:07.665 --> 00:23:10.835 Well then we have a steering team. And words matter. 538 00:23:11.295 --> 00:23:12.315 So one of the things 539 00:23:12.315 --> 00:23:15.435 that I really emphasize a lot is correcting people 540 00:23:16.555 --> 00:23:18.115 when they accidentally say steerco 541 00:23:18.135 --> 00:23:20.075 or steering committee. Yeah. You're spot on 542 00:23:20.075 --> 00:23:22.915 Because, Right, because let's get the vibe right, 543 00:23:22.945 --> 00:23:25.435 that we are a team working toward a goal 544 00:23:25.655 --> 00:23:27.915 to get this thing done, right? Like, let's get it 545 00:23:27.915 --> 00:23:28.915 Done. And, and we, we do 546 00:23:28.915 --> 00:23:29.355 the same thing. 547 00:23:29.375 --> 00:23:30.995 So we, we often talk about panels. 548 00:23:31.255 --> 00:23:33.515 So when you're, when you're make collecting information 549 00:23:33.515 --> 00:23:36.075 and data and, and opinions, right? 550 00:23:36.175 --> 00:23:38.635 That's a panel. We're getting people's input, right? 551 00:23:38.635 --> 00:23:39.715 They're not making a decision. 552 00:23:39.945 --> 00:23:41.515 They have no decision making authority, 553 00:23:41.535 --> 00:23:43.115 but they, they can have input it. 554 00:23:43.115 --> 00:23:46.065 That's right though. Yes. I'm sorry. 555 00:23:46.225 --> 00:23:47.585 I, I, I'll set the corner. 556 00:23:47.965 --> 00:23:49.385 Be quiet. Well, was it, I think he did it on purpose 557 00:23:49.485 --> 00:23:51.585 so we could have that teaching moment. Yeah, 558 00:23:51.745 --> 00:23:52.745 I did. Absolutely. Yes. Thank 559 00:23:52.745 --> 00:23:53.985 you, Stuart. Yes, absolutely. 560 00:23:54.445 --> 00:23:58.105 So, so this, so back to the, the, the task at hand, right? 561 00:23:58.245 --> 00:24:01.835 So, so the lion, you know, if you think about, if you, 562 00:24:01.935 --> 00:24:03.275 if you would like to, you know, 563 00:24:03.555 --> 00:24:06.115 imagine your sponsor is a lion, right? 564 00:24:06.225 --> 00:24:08.755 It's like, okay, they might be in a bad mood. 565 00:24:10.305 --> 00:24:12.515 They might have had a hard morning, right? Mm-Hmm. 566 00:24:12.595 --> 00:24:13.915 They might have had just come out of the meeting 567 00:24:13.915 --> 00:24:17.635 with the CEO who just handed them, you know, a whole pile 568 00:24:17.635 --> 00:24:19.795 of nonsense that they have to deal with, you know, 569 00:24:19.795 --> 00:24:20.795 or a really tough problem. 570 00:24:20.815 --> 00:24:22.795 You never know. I mean, these people are really, 571 00:24:22.795 --> 00:24:25.395 really busy, really important, making a lot of money, 572 00:24:25.395 --> 00:24:26.395 hopefully, uh, 573 00:24:26.395 --> 00:24:27.635 because they deserve it for the 574 00:24:27.635 --> 00:24:28.675 stress level that they're under. 575 00:24:28.895 --> 00:24:30.235 And so you need to be aware of this. 576 00:24:30.375 --> 00:24:33.035 So I love what you said, Stewart, about, you know, 577 00:24:33.255 --> 00:24:34.395 be going in prepared. 578 00:24:34.895 --> 00:24:36.395 One way to go in prepared is 579 00:24:36.395 --> 00:24:38.395 to really think about the profile of your lion. 580 00:24:40.725 --> 00:24:42.615 What is really the profile of your lion? 581 00:24:42.755 --> 00:24:44.175 So if Stewart 582 00:24:44.435 --> 00:24:48.135 or a lion, he would say, don't gimme the technical details. 583 00:24:48.135 --> 00:24:50.295 That's not my chop. I'm gonna get really annoyed. 584 00:24:50.395 --> 00:24:52.215 I'm gonna roll my eyes and I'm gonna tell you to get 585 00:24:52.215 --> 00:24:53.895 to the bottom line of what, how I can help you, 586 00:24:54.005 --> 00:24:55.575 because I don't have time 587 00:24:55.875 --> 00:24:57.535 to hear all your technical details. 588 00:24:58.105 --> 00:24:59.335 Right? And that's fair. 589 00:24:59.915 --> 00:25:02.935 So if, if you need to know the profile of your lion first. 590 00:25:03.475 --> 00:25:06.735 So in the book, I have evil sponsor behaviors 591 00:25:07.395 --> 00:25:10.175 and also evil steering team behaviors. 592 00:25:10.395 --> 00:25:12.455 Now, the people aren't evil necessarily, right? 593 00:25:12.455 --> 00:25:13.495 Some of them are, I've dealt 594 00:25:13.495 --> 00:25:15.175 with them unfortunately, in project land. 595 00:25:15.595 --> 00:25:19.975 But when you think about, you know, no human is perfect. 596 00:25:21.005 --> 00:25:23.945 No human is definitely perfect under stress. 597 00:25:24.325 --> 00:25:26.505 And project land is 100% stressful. 598 00:25:26.985 --> 00:25:29.105 'cause the clock is always ticking on a project, right? 599 00:25:29.175 --> 00:25:31.905 Like, there's a time sensitivity on projects. 600 00:25:31.905 --> 00:25:34.385 Nobody says, uh, take all the time you need 601 00:25:35.525 --> 00:25:36.665 and means it, right? 602 00:25:36.665 --> 00:25:39.065 Ever. I mean, come on. Never, never, never. 603 00:25:39.525 --> 00:25:41.825 So, yeah, I love what James just said. 604 00:25:41.825 --> 00:25:44.425 You know, you gotta go in honest and not sugarcoat it. 605 00:25:44.705 --> 00:25:47.305 'cause they can smell the bs, right? 606 00:25:47.565 --> 00:25:49.105 If you forgive me for that. 607 00:25:49.405 --> 00:25:51.065 So you, it is important 608 00:25:51.605 --> 00:25:53.345 to develop a great relationship with them. 609 00:25:53.645 --> 00:25:56.745 And one of the things that I like to think about is, okay, 610 00:25:56.815 --> 00:25:58.065 they're gonna have strengths. 611 00:25:58.845 --> 00:26:01.625 You as a pm, you know, if you're a PM in a PM role 612 00:26:01.625 --> 00:26:03.705 or a PMO role, you're gonna have strengths. 613 00:26:03.845 --> 00:26:07.585 And it's important to make sure that the lion is surrounded 614 00:26:08.565 --> 00:26:10.905 by the people who can build them up 615 00:26:11.125 --> 00:26:12.425 and help them be successful 616 00:26:12.445 --> 00:26:15.745 and be the rock stars that they need to be on the project so 617 00:26:15.745 --> 00:26:17.545 that the project is successful. 618 00:26:17.645 --> 00:26:20.825 So if, for instance, one of the, one 619 00:26:20.825 --> 00:26:23.025 of the evil behaviors is when they can't make a decision 620 00:26:23.045 --> 00:26:24.225 on time, right? 621 00:26:24.225 --> 00:26:25.345 They're indecisive. 622 00:26:26.795 --> 00:26:29.175 And so you have to figure out how can I get them 623 00:26:29.175 --> 00:26:30.375 to make the decision on time? 624 00:26:32.235 --> 00:26:34.495 And that's part of your, your role is 625 00:26:34.495 --> 00:26:36.095 to help support their decision making. 626 00:26:36.195 --> 00:26:39.535 So if they're, if they prefer analysis paralysis, then, 627 00:26:39.535 --> 00:26:42.215 you know, hey, six weeks out from the decision I need, 628 00:26:42.395 --> 00:26:44.165 I'm gonna have to start to understand from them 629 00:26:44.555 --> 00:26:47.165 what information do they need to make said decision? 630 00:26:47.835 --> 00:26:48.965 When do they need it by? 631 00:26:49.025 --> 00:26:50.365 How can we get them ready 632 00:26:50.425 --> 00:26:52.405 to make the decision on time, right? 633 00:26:52.865 --> 00:26:54.565 Um, so that's just one example. 634 00:26:56.165 --> 00:26:57.685 Absolutely. And, and, and putting it into, 635 00:26:57.835 --> 00:26:59.165 into, into context, right? 636 00:27:00.245 --> 00:27:04.835 The, um, uh, you know, when, when people bring, 637 00:27:05.125 --> 00:27:06.675 we're only a small company, right? 638 00:27:06.695 --> 00:27:09.675 But when people bring stuff to me, if they walk in 639 00:27:09.675 --> 00:27:12.115 and they start saying, well, I need you to make a decision. 640 00:27:13.445 --> 00:27:15.295 Okay, what's the decision? 641 00:27:15.595 --> 00:27:18.615 We need to know whether we should do this or this. Okay? 642 00:27:18.945 --> 00:27:21.055 Those are two things I have no knowledge about, 643 00:27:22.195 --> 00:27:23.615 so you're gonna have to help me out here. 644 00:27:23.665 --> 00:27:27.425 Right? And so then, so then they go from 10,000 feet 645 00:27:28.285 --> 00:27:31.625 to three feet, that's no good. That doesn't help me 646 00:27:31.625 --> 00:27:32.625 Down in the weeds. Yep. 647 00:27:32.625 --> 00:27:33.945 Down in the weeds, right? 648 00:27:34.525 --> 00:27:37.745 So, so, you know, it's, it's about learning the language 649 00:27:38.245 --> 00:27:39.745 of the creature you're talking to. 650 00:27:40.065 --> 00:27:41.265 I think that's m I'm putting 651 00:27:41.265 --> 00:27:42.345 words in your mouth a little bit. 652 00:27:42.725 --> 00:27:44.265 That's absolutely right. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. 653 00:27:44.405 --> 00:27:46.465 But, but it, it's about learning the language 654 00:27:46.765 --> 00:27:48.265 of the creature that you're dealing with. 655 00:27:48.365 --> 00:27:51.505 Yes. And speak in that language, right? 656 00:27:51.525 --> 00:27:53.265 So if you're dealing with me, right? 657 00:27:53.715 --> 00:27:55.185 Bring me a problem, right? 658 00:27:55.765 --> 00:27:57.585 But then bring me some solutions 659 00:27:58.205 --> 00:28:01.545 and tell me why each one of those is good or bad, right? 660 00:28:01.545 --> 00:28:03.905 Because then, then I've got information I can, I can use 661 00:28:03.925 --> 00:28:05.105 to kind of say, yeah, okay, I, 662 00:28:05.415 --> 00:28:07.545 this feels like about the right balance, right? 663 00:28:07.665 --> 00:28:09.105 Absolutely. Or I can ask further questions or whatever. 664 00:28:09.815 --> 00:28:11.665 Yeah. I love that. That's great advice. 665 00:28:12.085 --> 00:28:16.385 Um, and you know, I feel like when this question that came 666 00:28:16.385 --> 00:28:18.345 through from a shock, you know, how do we learn 667 00:28:18.345 --> 00:28:21.585 that language if you haven't already worked with this person 668 00:28:22.655 --> 00:28:24.235 or you're new to the organization? 669 00:28:24.935 --> 00:28:27.635 You know, one of the things that I love to suggest, 670 00:28:27.775 --> 00:28:29.475 if you don't know the language of that sponsor, 671 00:28:29.695 --> 00:28:31.195 is find out somebody who does. 672 00:28:31.645 --> 00:28:34.875 Right? Find out somebody who has worked with that person 673 00:28:35.505 --> 00:28:39.235 closely who, you know, can give you some advice about 674 00:28:39.235 --> 00:28:40.595 how best to work with them. 675 00:28:41.035 --> 00:28:43.955 I mean, even to the point of practicality on, are they, 676 00:28:44.015 --> 00:28:45.795 do they prefer to have morning meetings 677 00:28:45.975 --> 00:28:48.035 or afternoon ones, right? 678 00:28:48.135 --> 00:28:52.195 Do they, are they, is it better to get them, you know, at, 679 00:28:52.375 --> 00:28:54.555 at what time of day is it best to get them? 680 00:28:54.555 --> 00:28:55.755 Because I'll tell you what, 681 00:28:55.755 --> 00:28:57.555 my name is Dawn and it shouldn't be. 682 00:28:57.755 --> 00:28:58.915 'cause I am not a morning person. 683 00:28:59.105 --> 00:29:01.915 Like, please do not put a 7:00 AM meeting on my calendar. 684 00:29:01.945 --> 00:29:02.955 Well, it's just to remind you 685 00:29:02.955 --> 00:29:04.475 that there is a dawn in the day. 686 00:29:04.475 --> 00:29:05.475 Right? 687 00:29:07.095 --> 00:29:10.595 You know, it's like, uh, so I don't do well then. 688 00:29:10.975 --> 00:29:12.675 So please don't set me up that way. 689 00:29:12.895 --> 00:29:15.475 And it's like, if you wanna get outta me 690 00:29:15.825 --> 00:29:18.035 what you need outta me, set it up for the time 691 00:29:18.145 --> 00:29:19.875 that you need it and set me up 692 00:29:19.975 --> 00:29:22.075 for success in giving you what you need. 693 00:29:22.095 --> 00:29:25.835 And that's how every sponsor really truly operates. 694 00:29:25.855 --> 00:29:28.435 So find out from somebody that's worked with that person 695 00:29:28.435 --> 00:29:31.755 before, well gee, you know, what are their ticks? 696 00:29:32.105 --> 00:29:34.355 Like, how, what's, what's a landmine? 697 00:29:34.475 --> 00:29:36.395 I don't wanna step in with them, right? 698 00:29:36.455 --> 00:29:38.395 Do you have, what advice do you have for me? 699 00:29:38.655 --> 00:29:42.005 And anytime anybody has said to me, me, Hey, I, 700 00:29:42.225 --> 00:29:44.245 I'd really like some advice, you know, 701 00:29:44.385 --> 00:29:47.565 and it's hard to deny somebody that if you're like, 702 00:29:48.125 --> 00:29:49.725 I really need some advice about Stewart. 703 00:29:50.285 --> 00:29:51.685 'cause I have not worked with him before, 704 00:29:52.065 --> 00:29:54.605 and I'd really like to know how to be successful in working 705 00:29:54.605 --> 00:29:56.005 with him as a leader. 706 00:29:56.305 --> 00:29:59.925 And, and people should, should give 707 00:30:00.075 --> 00:30:02.685 that person some advice and be happy to do it. 708 00:30:02.685 --> 00:30:05.125 Right. Um, if they, if they're not a snake, 709 00:30:06.965 --> 00:30:08.945 Wow, well, we'll come to the snakes in a minute 710 00:30:09.085 --> 00:30:10.225 before we leave there, right? 711 00:30:10.365 --> 00:30:14.595 So, so, um, as a, as a project manager 712 00:30:14.695 --> 00:30:16.515 or a PMO leader, right? 713 00:30:16.695 --> 00:30:20.865 You are a leader. You're a leader. 714 00:30:21.405 --> 00:30:24.745 And so hundred percent, again, when you are presenting 715 00:30:24.765 --> 00:30:28.305 or when your team is presenting to those lions, 716 00:30:28.305 --> 00:30:30.785 it's not just your responsibility to, 717 00:30:31.525 --> 00:30:34.085 to communicate yourself clearly, 718 00:30:35.345 --> 00:30:36.675 it's also your responsibility 719 00:30:36.675 --> 00:30:38.995 to make sure your team also understands how they need 720 00:30:39.075 --> 00:30:41.995 to be communicating and that they are communicating clearly. 721 00:30:42.295 --> 00:30:44.235 Mm-hmm. Right? That's part of the responsibility 722 00:30:44.255 --> 00:30:45.315 of being a leader, right? 723 00:30:45.315 --> 00:30:46.995 Mm-Hmm. Being that tiger, right? 724 00:30:47.555 --> 00:30:50.475 Ti tigers have claws and, and teeth as well, right? 725 00:30:51.355 --> 00:30:53.735 So don't be afraid to, I'm not saying you should go 726 00:30:53.735 --> 00:30:56.735 and mo your team, but, um, 727 00:30:57.355 --> 00:30:59.335 but don't be afraid to lead, right? 728 00:30:59.335 --> 00:31:01.095 And don't be afraid to, to kind of coach 729 00:31:01.095 --> 00:31:03.655 and say, guys, this is, if we want this outcome, this is 730 00:31:03.655 --> 00:31:04.695 how we need to go about it. 731 00:31:05.315 --> 00:31:06.485 Yeah. Absolutely. And 732 00:31:06.485 --> 00:31:10.765 that's the number one practical tip I share in our practical 733 00:31:10.765 --> 00:31:13.725 project management certificate class about the role 734 00:31:13.725 --> 00:31:17.805 of the project manager is that number one is they need 735 00:31:17.805 --> 00:31:19.085 to embrace the leadership role. 736 00:31:19.265 --> 00:31:21.645 And when we, we were talking a little bit earlier about 737 00:31:21.645 --> 00:31:22.965 low maturity organizations. 738 00:31:23.505 --> 00:31:26.645 One of the big problems in low maturity organizations many 739 00:31:26.645 --> 00:31:29.765 times is that the project manager is between a rock 740 00:31:29.765 --> 00:31:33.445 and a hard place on they've, they have been given allegedly 741 00:31:34.185 --> 00:31:37.525 the authority to run the project, but nobody gets that. 742 00:31:38.125 --> 00:31:40.155 Right? And so they keep going to their bosses 743 00:31:40.335 --> 00:31:42.075 for advice instead of the project manager 744 00:31:42.215 --> 00:31:44.155 or the project manager says, I have 745 00:31:44.155 --> 00:31:45.195 to lead with no authority. 746 00:31:45.815 --> 00:31:47.245 Right? I don't have any authority. 747 00:31:47.475 --> 00:31:49.045 Well, that's a shame because if, 748 00:31:49.185 --> 00:31:51.805 if the organization wants this person to run the project, 749 00:31:52.355 --> 00:31:56.125 they better enforce the authority that that role has 750 00:31:56.825 --> 00:31:58.365 to set them up for success. 751 00:31:58.915 --> 00:32:00.605 Otherwise it's a total zoo, 752 00:32:03.555 --> 00:32:04.555 But intended. 753 00:32:04.925 --> 00:32:06.775 Yeah. Very much so. 754 00:32:07.155 --> 00:32:09.375 Um, okay, so, so let's, let's kind of carry on. 755 00:32:09.375 --> 00:32:11.095 So there, there's a couple of que couple of comments 756 00:32:11.115 --> 00:32:12.215 and questions coming in. 757 00:32:12.365 --> 00:32:16.335 Yeah. Uh, you know, you know, so, so Mahesh, um, 758 00:32:16.805 --> 00:32:18.935 also put a question in the q and a and, 759 00:32:18.955 --> 00:32:22.375 and the, the, the nut of it is, okay, in A PMO, uh, 760 00:32:22.395 --> 00:32:23.655 nobody knows what I'm for. 761 00:32:23.825 --> 00:32:26.255 Right? And I'm, I'm putting words in your mouth, Mahesh, 762 00:32:26.255 --> 00:32:27.415 but that, that's close enough, right? 763 00:32:27.415 --> 00:32:30.515 So, so, you know, the execs, they don't know what, what I'm 764 00:32:30.535 --> 00:32:34.035 for, there's no transparency, there's no support buy-in. 765 00:32:34.535 --> 00:32:35.955 So any thoughts there? 766 00:32:36.195 --> 00:32:38.195 'cause because that's a slightly different scenario 767 00:32:39.175 --> 00:32:41.545 to being a project manager, right? 768 00:32:41.565 --> 00:32:43.305 You, you, it's a different set 769 00:32:43.305 --> 00:32:44.825 of stakeholders at some level. 770 00:32:45.915 --> 00:32:47.775 The PMO stakeholders. Hmm. 771 00:32:49.035 --> 00:32:51.775 Is that, is that really Yeah. Is that's it. Yeah. Yeah. 772 00:32:51.915 --> 00:32:55.215 So, you know, the p So when I was a PMO director, right? 773 00:32:55.355 --> 00:32:56.615 And we were changing the way 774 00:32:56.965 --> 00:32:59.415 that the whole organization ran projects. 775 00:32:59.445 --> 00:33:00.575 Like it was utter chaos 776 00:33:00.755 --> 00:33:03.575 before we were getting professional PMs in, 777 00:33:03.925 --> 00:33:06.535 they were telling people, you know, like leading people 778 00:33:06.535 --> 00:33:09.215 through the process and people were 779 00:33:09.215 --> 00:33:10.495 resisting all over the place. 780 00:33:10.655 --> 00:33:12.855 I call it the resistance, right? 781 00:33:14.085 --> 00:33:17.825 And so, as a PMO leader, I had 782 00:33:17.905 --> 00:33:20.225 to really worry about all of these stakeholders, 783 00:33:20.485 --> 00:33:21.905 but I couldn't do it all at once. 784 00:33:22.525 --> 00:33:25.985 So I had to co be concerned myself with the executives 785 00:33:26.085 --> 00:33:27.185 and how, and the, 786 00:33:27.205 --> 00:33:28.305 and the team leads, 787 00:33:28.335 --> 00:33:30.265 like the department heads and stuff like that. 788 00:33:30.565 --> 00:33:32.105 And I would have one-on-ones with all of them 789 00:33:32.565 --> 00:33:34.105 and be like, what's going on? 790 00:33:34.245 --> 00:33:37.505 How are you feeling? You know about your pm how are you, 791 00:33:37.505 --> 00:33:39.105 you know, I'd check in with the sponsors, 792 00:33:39.165 --> 00:33:40.545 how are they feeling about the pm? 793 00:33:40.965 --> 00:33:42.585 And I would gather this intel. 794 00:33:42.925 --> 00:33:45.265 And one of the key things that I did that I, 795 00:33:45.865 --> 00:33:47.545 I didn't know would be so impactful 796 00:33:47.725 --> 00:33:51.305 and really, really was, was I started, I had my crew 797 00:33:51.305 --> 00:33:53.465 of professional project managers 798 00:33:54.125 --> 00:33:57.665 and I said, you guys, we are the face of project management. 799 00:33:58.125 --> 00:34:00.705 If we are, this is the fourth time this organization has 800 00:34:00.715 --> 00:34:01.825 tried to do A PMO. 801 00:34:02.365 --> 00:34:06.695 If we don't succeed with like, it's over, right? 802 00:34:07.155 --> 00:34:10.815 So we, what I need you to do is realize you are the face 803 00:34:10.815 --> 00:34:12.895 of project management to the people that you work with. 804 00:34:13.635 --> 00:34:15.215 And I need you to come back to me 805 00:34:15.485 --> 00:34:17.095 with the value you are delivering 806 00:34:17.275 --> 00:34:18.895 and when your project delivers value. 807 00:34:19.155 --> 00:34:21.775 And so what I did was I had a piece of paper, uh, 808 00:34:21.995 --> 00:34:25.375 and I had, you know, I started to track like the, 809 00:34:25.475 --> 00:34:26.575 the, the value delivery. 810 00:34:26.715 --> 00:34:31.655 So for instance, when, uh, the organization decided 811 00:34:32.445 --> 00:34:35.535 that we already had a, like a, a business organization said, 812 00:34:35.535 --> 00:34:36.935 we want a tool, right? 813 00:34:37.085 --> 00:34:38.615 This happens all the time, but we want a tool, 814 00:34:38.615 --> 00:34:40.775 we want this tool, it we want you to put it in. 815 00:34:41.315 --> 00:34:43.335 And the IT organization, you know, we went 816 00:34:43.335 --> 00:34:45.575 through the process, whatever, and we realized, oh, 817 00:34:45.575 --> 00:34:47.415 what they're really, the problem they're really trying 818 00:34:47.415 --> 00:34:50.055 to solve here is solved by a tool we already have in-house. 819 00:34:50.475 --> 00:34:53.815 So we saved them, you know, $250,000 820 00:34:54.395 --> 00:34:56.975 and 12 weeks at minimum, right? 821 00:34:57.155 --> 00:34:58.415 And so we calculated that 822 00:34:58.415 --> 00:35:01.055 and I'm like, you know, in six months we were 823 00:35:01.055 --> 00:35:02.375 to a million dollars in value. 824 00:35:03.215 --> 00:35:07.235 So as the PMO head, I was like, everybody I talked to, 825 00:35:07.315 --> 00:35:09.235 I was like, did you know that we delivered a million dollars 826 00:35:09.275 --> 00:35:10.475 in value in only six months? 827 00:35:10.575 --> 00:35:11.635 Did you know that, you know, 828 00:35:11.815 --> 00:35:14.195 my team is delivering a million dollars in 829 00:35:14.195 --> 00:35:15.275 value in only six months. 830 00:35:15.415 --> 00:35:18.305 And then the resistance started 831 00:35:18.325 --> 00:35:22.525 to deflate a little bit, which is, there you go. 832 00:35:22.615 --> 00:35:25.685 Which is key. So like proof, you know, you have to, 833 00:35:25.785 --> 00:35:28.285 if in low maturity organizations where you're trying 834 00:35:28.445 --> 00:35:31.285 to bring maturity, they want proof, they're, you know, 835 00:35:31.285 --> 00:35:33.485 if anybody on the call is from the show me 836 00:35:33.485 --> 00:35:35.085 state in the us right? 837 00:35:35.085 --> 00:35:37.645 The show me state, it's like they're all from the show me 838 00:35:37.645 --> 00:35:41.965 state, show me the value, show me, and you have to prove it. 839 00:35:42.185 --> 00:35:44.525 And so that like, thermometer 840 00:35:45.065 --> 00:35:46.685 of we're delivering this value, 841 00:35:46.685 --> 00:35:47.965 we delivered this value in this way 842 00:35:47.985 --> 00:35:50.325 and this value in that way, you know, line it up. 843 00:35:50.545 --> 00:35:51.805 So, so, so there's a good, 844 00:35:52.285 --> 00:35:54.325 i I said we were gonna talk about people and things 845 00:35:54.345 --> 00:35:56.085 and avoid the process and the tools, 846 00:35:56.145 --> 00:35:58.125 but Leo, you just set it up for me. 847 00:35:58.745 --> 00:36:01.165 So, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna dive in there just for a second. 848 00:36:01.705 --> 00:36:03.605 Um, so, so, so actually I'm, 849 00:36:03.825 --> 00:36:04.965 I'm gonna go back a couple of comments. 850 00:36:05.325 --> 00:36:08.045 Ashok. Um, so you, you, you said something there about, 851 00:36:08.045 --> 00:36:10.045 you know, get, get the, get the charter out 852 00:36:10.145 --> 00:36:13.885 and get people to buy into it and your golden Yeah. 853 00:36:15.435 --> 00:36:16.605 Yeah. Okay. 854 00:36:16.815 --> 00:36:19.165 Maybe, um, I actually, 855 00:36:19.225 --> 00:36:21.125 I'm gonna steal something from Laura Barnard here. 856 00:36:21.125 --> 00:36:23.325 Yeah. I, I like the way Laura thinks about this stuff. 857 00:36:23.385 --> 00:36:25.845 Mm-Hmm. She, she, she's not a big fan of the charter. 858 00:36:26.515 --> 00:36:29.205 What she talks about is building a business plan, 859 00:36:29.575 --> 00:36:31.045 right? For a, for 860 00:36:31.045 --> 00:36:32.045 The PMO. Yeah. For 861 00:36:32.045 --> 00:36:33.245 the PMO. That's right. Mm-Hmm. 862 00:36:33.745 --> 00:36:37.545 So you are a business, right? Mm-Hmm. Your customers, right? 863 00:36:37.565 --> 00:36:40.865 The executives, they give you money and resources. Mm-Hmm. 864 00:36:40.945 --> 00:36:44.345 And what they expect in return is value. Yeah. 865 00:36:44.445 --> 00:36:45.945 Gregor, good to see you. I didn't see you there. 866 00:36:45.945 --> 00:36:47.025 Good to see you, Gregor. Welcome. 867 00:36:47.525 --> 00:36:49.865 Um, so what they're expect in return is value. 868 00:36:49.885 --> 00:36:51.465 And the way that you're delivering that value is you, 869 00:36:51.465 --> 00:36:52.705 you're cranking out projects. 870 00:36:52.705 --> 00:36:54.745 And those projects create benefits in 871 00:36:54.745 --> 00:36:55.785 the business that we can measure. 872 00:36:57.185 --> 00:37:00.245 And so, uh, so Leo, we, we get to your question. 873 00:37:00.245 --> 00:37:01.605 Now, how do we, how do we measure that? 874 00:37:02.105 --> 00:37:04.885 So that starts really with, with, you know, 875 00:37:04.915 --> 00:37:07.685 this is actually about governance, portfolio of governance. 876 00:37:08.275 --> 00:37:10.725 It's, it's about, you gotta start by knowing 877 00:37:11.315 --> 00:37:13.165 what are the KPIs the business cares about? 878 00:37:13.785 --> 00:37:15.165 Yep. Right? 879 00:37:15.185 --> 00:37:16.965 So, so if the business, if you are, 880 00:37:16.985 --> 00:37:19.555 if you're in a cash cow business, right? 881 00:37:19.825 --> 00:37:23.075 Then actually they don't care about Mark market share. 882 00:37:23.235 --> 00:37:25.355 'cause they already have it, right? They've got it all. 883 00:37:25.355 --> 00:37:26.395 They've got all they're ever gonna get. 884 00:37:27.015 --> 00:37:29.875 So they care about efficiency and reducing cost 885 00:37:29.975 --> 00:37:32.435 and all of these things so that they can milk the profit out 886 00:37:32.695 --> 00:37:34.915 and put it into the rising stars, right? 887 00:37:35.735 --> 00:37:38.435 If you're in a rising star, you care about growth 888 00:37:38.935 --> 00:37:40.835 and you might not care about margin, right? 889 00:37:40.855 --> 00:37:44.235 So you need to understand the business KPIs. Yes. 890 00:37:44.255 --> 00:37:46.275 And then you need to do the prioritization stuff so 891 00:37:46.275 --> 00:37:50.355 that you're, you're helping the business select the projects 892 00:37:50.355 --> 00:37:51.715 that support their KPIs. 893 00:37:52.265 --> 00:37:53.755 Then you need to deliver the projects 894 00:37:54.135 --> 00:37:56.595 and measure the KPIs, right? 895 00:37:56.755 --> 00:37:59.315 I I, I'm oversimplifying it a little bit, right? 896 00:37:59.935 --> 00:38:02.195 But, but if you do that, then you can turn around 897 00:38:02.195 --> 00:38:04.635 and you can say, okay, you said you wanted a million dollars 898 00:38:04.635 --> 00:38:06.995 of savings, I've delivered 1.2, 899 00:38:07.675 --> 00:38:08.675 Right? Okay. 900 00:38:08.675 --> 00:38:10.455 And you have to tell people, 901 00:38:11.045 --> 00:38:12.295 Yeah, you, you, Like some, 902 00:38:12.605 --> 00:38:14.495 some people are a little too humble on this. 903 00:38:14.975 --> 00:38:17.175 I was like, this wasn't me, this was my team, right? 904 00:38:17.195 --> 00:38:20.495 So I was like, look at, you know? Yeah. 905 00:38:20.845 --> 00:38:23.055 They're like, any questions, you know, 906 00:38:23.055 --> 00:38:24.215 that's it about the right. 907 00:38:24.215 --> 00:38:25.935 That's it. So yeah, that's really important. 908 00:38:26.315 --> 00:38:29.295 And on the people side, like, the thing 909 00:38:29.295 --> 00:38:31.255 that also happened, right? 910 00:38:31.355 --> 00:38:32.855 Is people like to pick. 911 00:38:33.315 --> 00:38:35.855 So they're part of the resistance, right? 912 00:38:35.955 --> 00:38:37.935 Is about people wanna pick. 913 00:38:38.195 --> 00:38:40.855 So sometimes it's about how, you know, they're just trying 914 00:38:40.855 --> 00:38:42.295 to bring people down because they don't 915 00:38:42.295 --> 00:38:43.335 like what is happening. 916 00:38:43.795 --> 00:38:45.855 So they're gonna pick at things, right? 917 00:38:45.855 --> 00:38:47.335 And they're gonna ask a lot of questions, 918 00:38:47.795 --> 00:38:49.775 and you better be ready to answer them. 919 00:38:50.115 --> 00:38:54.615 And you better be, uh, operating in the, in the, in a way 920 00:38:54.615 --> 00:38:57.935 that the culture can, can digest, 921 00:38:58.905 --> 00:38:59.905 Woodpecker. 922 00:39:01.805 --> 00:39:03.175 Love it. Woodpecker. 923 00:39:03.805 --> 00:39:05.735 Nice. That's your pick, that's your person pick. 924 00:39:06.325 --> 00:39:07.415 Yeah. Perfectly. 925 00:39:07.915 --> 00:39:10.375 So, so what I, what I feel is, 926 00:39:10.475 --> 00:39:12.815 and I I talk about this in the book, is some 927 00:39:12.815 --> 00:39:15.535 of the cultural implications for how 928 00:39:15.535 --> 00:39:18.575 to operate in your version of Project Land, right? 929 00:39:18.605 --> 00:39:22.575 Like, what is, do you even know, if somebody, 930 00:39:22.595 --> 00:39:24.295 if I walked into your organization 931 00:39:24.475 --> 00:39:27.015 and said, describe your version of Project Land to me, 932 00:39:28.435 --> 00:39:32.365 what are the characteristics that really are important 933 00:39:32.505 --> 00:39:35.925 to know to navigate your version of Project Land, right? 934 00:39:36.035 --> 00:39:38.445 That is important to understand so 935 00:39:38.445 --> 00:39:40.325 that you can operate in the right way in 936 00:39:40.645 --> 00:39:41.965 whatever role you're in. 937 00:39:42.545 --> 00:39:46.985 So for instance, if, if, if when we work 938 00:39:46.985 --> 00:39:49.145 with government or governmental organizations, right? 939 00:39:49.695 --> 00:39:51.185 They're very risk averse 940 00:39:51.575 --> 00:39:53.345 because they know that, 941 00:39:54.455 --> 00:39:56.985 that they could be under media scrutiny 942 00:39:57.845 --> 00:40:00.845 for the wrong decision, right? 943 00:40:00.915 --> 00:40:03.205 Like, so if, let's say they bring in a software 944 00:40:03.265 --> 00:40:04.605 and they spend $20 million 945 00:40:04.865 --> 00:40:07.125 and they get zero value out of it, I mean, 946 00:40:07.125 --> 00:40:08.525 that could be a headline, right? 947 00:40:08.555 --> 00:40:10.565 Like, city wastes another 20 million 948 00:40:10.565 --> 00:40:12.565 of taxpayers money in America, right? 949 00:40:12.565 --> 00:40:15.925 Like that's, yeah. So they, so they're risk avoiders. 950 00:40:16.505 --> 00:40:18.365 So decisions take a long time. 951 00:40:18.505 --> 00:40:22.165 So if you are a risk, or if you have a high risk tolerance 952 00:40:22.225 --> 00:40:23.685 and you're shooting from the hip, you're gonna 953 00:40:24.205 --> 00:40:25.965 probably be a little friction sometimes there. 954 00:40:26.585 --> 00:40:28.405 And you have to know how 955 00:40:28.405 --> 00:40:31.165 to operate in the culture that you're in. 956 00:40:31.665 --> 00:40:34.765 And what I like to think about is how can you start 957 00:40:34.785 --> 00:40:38.045 to move your culture into more of a healthy culture 958 00:40:38.045 --> 00:40:39.925 that gets results and, 959 00:40:40.065 --> 00:40:42.805 and push it, you know, push it toward that in a way 960 00:40:42.805 --> 00:40:44.005 that doesn't break you. 961 00:40:44.525 --> 00:40:46.365 'cause you're the one that's gonna break, by the way, 962 00:40:46.665 --> 00:40:48.085 the organization's not gonna break. 963 00:40:48.235 --> 00:40:50.365 It's you, right? You're gonna be find yourself out the 964 00:40:50.365 --> 00:40:51.525 door if that's the case. 965 00:40:51.705 --> 00:40:53.205 So, um, anytime 966 00:40:53.305 --> 00:40:56.885 and project leaders, PMO leaders, I have been there, uh, 967 00:40:56.995 --> 00:40:58.005 many times you're asked 968 00:40:58.005 --> 00:41:00.485 to be a change agent in a low maturity organization. 969 00:41:00.785 --> 00:41:02.725 And when you are asked to be a change agent, 970 00:41:03.665 --> 00:41:06.645 here's my advice for you, either run the other way 971 00:41:06.745 --> 00:41:08.525 or don Bulletproof vest 972 00:41:08.525 --> 00:41:11.325 because it, it is gonna be hard, right? 973 00:41:11.475 --> 00:41:12.485 It's also very, 974 00:41:12.515 --> 00:41:15.965 very satisfying when you can sit back in six months 975 00:41:15.985 --> 00:41:18.165 and say, we delivered a million dollars in value. 976 00:41:18.415 --> 00:41:21.445 We're changing the way the organization gets projects done, 977 00:41:21.465 --> 00:41:24.125 and it's better, and it's faster and it's cheaper. 978 00:41:24.385 --> 00:41:26.325 And, uh, people are having, you know, 979 00:41:26.405 --> 00:41:28.485 a better experience of it as well. 980 00:41:28.625 --> 00:41:31.765 So it can be extremely satisfying, 981 00:41:32.345 --> 00:41:35.685 but it can also be just really, really hard. 982 00:41:36.545 --> 00:41:39.085 And, and one of the animals that makes it so hard. 983 00:41:39.555 --> 00:41:41.485 I've been trying to figure out how we got back to this one. 984 00:41:41.485 --> 00:41:43.485 So I'm really delighted that, very pleased 985 00:41:43.485 --> 00:41:44.525 with myself on this segue. 986 00:41:44.835 --> 00:41:47.245 Yeah. Uh, so one of the, one of the creatures that makes 987 00:41:47.245 --> 00:41:50.005 that so difficult is the snake. 988 00:41:51.165 --> 00:41:53.385 So talk to us about snakes. 989 00:41:54.165 --> 00:41:56.985 How do we, how do we, how do we spot a snake first? 990 00:41:57.845 --> 00:42:01.425 You know? And sometimes, um, sometimes you don't, right? 991 00:42:01.525 --> 00:42:06.505 So the idea with the whole snake is stakeholders are, um, 992 00:42:06.645 --> 00:42:09.105 either love your project, hate your project, 993 00:42:09.445 --> 00:42:10.745 or somewhere in between. 994 00:42:11.125 --> 00:42:12.945 And the snakes are the ones that hate your project. 995 00:42:13.375 --> 00:42:15.305 They may not want you to succeed. 996 00:42:15.855 --> 00:42:18.705 They may not want the project to succeed for some reason. 997 00:42:19.285 --> 00:42:20.305 But really, you know, 998 00:42:20.795 --> 00:42:23.945 every villain is a hero in their own story. 999 00:42:24.655 --> 00:42:27.475 So snakes feel like they're protecting their territory. 1000 00:42:27.865 --> 00:42:31.715 They feel like, you know, they feel righteous in their, 1001 00:42:32.015 --> 00:42:33.675 you know, in, in their perspective. 1002 00:42:34.335 --> 00:42:37.275 And the idea that I was talking about is, you know, 1003 00:42:37.275 --> 00:42:38.835 about project land is, do you know 1004 00:42:39.145 --> 00:42:42.595 what yours is really the profile of your project land. 1005 00:42:43.015 --> 00:42:46.595 And if you are sort of skipping through the meadow 1006 00:42:46.735 --> 00:42:47.755 of project land, 1007 00:42:47.775 --> 00:42:50.355 and you're not watching out for snakes, one, 1008 00:42:50.455 --> 00:42:53.355 if you get close to one, it's going to jump up 1009 00:42:53.355 --> 00:42:54.775 and bite you, right? 1010 00:42:54.835 --> 00:42:58.455 And this has happened to me, you know, many times 1011 00:42:58.585 --> 00:43:00.255 where I didn't see that one coming. 1012 00:43:00.635 --> 00:43:03.535 And so we talked about, you know, stakeholder analysis 1013 00:43:03.535 --> 00:43:08.205 before and how stakeholders, you know, people like, 1014 00:43:08.205 --> 00:43:09.325 especially in tech, 1015 00:43:09.325 --> 00:43:12.165 people don't think about the people as much as they should. 1016 00:43:12.345 --> 00:43:14.285 And that's been my experience in, you know, 1017 00:43:14.355 --> 00:43:17.765 decades in technology where we just think about the process 1018 00:43:17.825 --> 00:43:18.845 and the tools, and we don't think 1019 00:43:18.845 --> 00:43:19.965 about the people as much as we should. 1020 00:43:20.035 --> 00:43:22.805 Well, you know, I really hope that with this book, 1021 00:43:23.105 --> 00:43:27.245 people start to realize, um, that the sad truth is 1022 00:43:27.245 --> 00:43:29.805 that if you don't know who your snakes are, 1023 00:43:30.595 --> 00:43:32.935 you are gonna find out and it's gonna be the 1024 00:43:32.935 --> 00:43:34.015 hard way, right? 1025 00:43:34.355 --> 00:43:36.265 That's, that's 1026 00:43:36.265 --> 00:43:38.705 Not, and, and do you think, and so let me ask you this, 1027 00:43:38.805 --> 00:43:40.825 do you think a snake is a personality 1028 00:43:41.485 --> 00:43:45.505 or is it, is it a, is it a, an artifact of circumstance? 1029 00:43:47.125 --> 00:43:50.305 So I think it can be both in either or. 1030 00:43:50.765 --> 00:43:54.905 So I, you know, some people come across as naysayers. 1031 00:43:55.525 --> 00:43:56.585 Um, I saw that. 1032 00:43:56.885 --> 00:43:58.545 So some people come across that way, 1033 00:43:58.545 --> 00:44:00.185 but really that's just their personality. 1034 00:44:00.185 --> 00:44:01.465 They, they're just questioners. 1035 00:44:01.465 --> 00:44:03.865 They like to ask questions, they like to challenge. 1036 00:44:04.175 --> 00:44:05.905 It's, you know, that's just kind of 1037 00:44:05.905 --> 00:44:07.985 how they operate and think things through. 1038 00:44:08.205 --> 00:44:10.025 And that's fine. There are analysts, you know, 1039 00:44:10.255 --> 00:44:11.385 I've been there myself. 1040 00:44:11.845 --> 00:44:15.585 Um, and then, but other times they legit don't want you 1041 00:44:15.725 --> 00:44:17.585 to succeed and will figure out a way 1042 00:44:17.585 --> 00:44:18.785 to help you, help you fail. 1043 00:44:20.865 --> 00:44:23.005 And so, like, they, they all exist. 1044 00:44:23.725 --> 00:44:26.205 I mean, they, all of these creatures can exist at different 1045 00:44:26.205 --> 00:44:27.605 times or another. 1046 00:44:28.025 --> 00:44:29.965 And so, and Leo asked the question, you know, 1047 00:44:29.965 --> 00:44:31.965 what animal comes across as a supporter? 1048 00:44:32.265 --> 00:44:34.205 And then snakes, you maybe a hyena. 1049 00:44:36.225 --> 00:44:37.245 So what's, 1050 00:44:37.685 --> 00:44:39.925 I have been asked the question like, what's the next book? 1051 00:44:40.105 --> 00:44:43.605 And we're, we're actually working on, um, uh, 1052 00:44:43.605 --> 00:44:44.845 project Land goes to the movies, 1053 00:44:45.385 --> 00:44:47.405 and the, the chapter I just wrote 1054 00:44:47.465 --> 00:44:50.845 as an example chapter is from the Italian job, Leo. 1055 00:44:51.345 --> 00:44:54.245 And that is, if anybody saw the Italian job, uh, 1056 00:44:54.355 --> 00:44:55.445 with Mark Wahlberg 1057 00:44:56.025 --> 00:44:59.565 and, um, Charlie Theron, you know, 1058 00:44:59.825 --> 00:45:01.565 the many years ago now it's like, 1059 00:45:02.045 --> 00:45:03.365 I think it's a 20-year-old movie now. 1060 00:45:03.425 --> 00:45:05.085 Um, I just love it. It's one of my favorites. 1061 00:45:05.765 --> 00:45:08.205 Ed Norton's character was a team 1062 00:45:08.205 --> 00:45:09.525 member, and he turns on them. 1063 00:45:09.745 --> 00:45:12.125 And so he was a snake inside the team. 1064 00:45:12.505 --> 00:45:14.645 So it turns out he was a saboteur inside the team. 1065 00:45:15.025 --> 00:45:16.605 And that does, that can happen. 1066 00:45:16.915 --> 00:45:19.645 It's, I think it's a little bit more rare than the 1067 00:45:19.645 --> 00:45:21.765 stakeholder that feels threatened, right? 1068 00:45:22.145 --> 00:45:23.565 But it has happened to me. 1069 00:45:23.565 --> 00:45:24.885 And I, there's a story in the book about it, 1070 00:45:24.885 --> 00:45:27.525 about a steering team member that sabotaged a project. 1071 00:45:29.275 --> 00:45:31.015 So, and so there, there's a question. 1072 00:45:31.115 --> 00:45:32.295 So I shall ask a question. 1073 00:45:32.315 --> 00:45:34.735 How do we dodge and, and counter the, you know, move 1074 00:45:34.735 --> 00:45:36.735 around the snakes, you know, manage the snakes? 1075 00:45:37.155 --> 00:45:40.495 And, and my guess is the answer is that it depends on 1076 00:45:40.495 --> 00:45:42.495 what kind of snake they are, right? 1077 00:45:42.495 --> 00:45:45.495 Are they a mean snake or are they just a snake defending the 1078 00:45:45.935 --> 00:45:47.655 territory that you just startled? 1079 00:45:47.835 --> 00:45:50.295 You know, so, so, so talk to us a little bit about that. 1080 00:45:50.885 --> 00:45:54.575 Yeah. Well, it all, you know, who are the snakes comes out 1081 00:45:55.275 --> 00:45:57.255 in when you do your stakeholder analysis? 1082 00:45:57.595 --> 00:46:01.135 Um, and as part of the book, there are some, uh, resources 1083 00:46:01.405 --> 00:46:03.615 that I use that our team uses. 1084 00:46:03.955 --> 00:46:05.255 Uh, one of them is called the 1085 00:46:05.255 --> 00:46:06.855 stakeholder analysis and management matrix. 1086 00:46:07.395 --> 00:46:10.935 And the first, the first thing is you just start to identify 1087 00:46:11.115 --> 00:46:12.775 who the different stakeholders are. 1088 00:46:13.035 --> 00:46:15.855 And you have a very private conversation with the sponsor, 1089 00:46:15.995 --> 00:46:17.615 for instance, about, you know, 1090 00:46:17.615 --> 00:46:19.255 the stakeholders and their profiles. 1091 00:46:19.475 --> 00:46:22.215 So who is a cheerleader for your project, right? 1092 00:46:22.235 --> 00:46:23.975 Who loves your project and is your cheerleader 1093 00:46:24.355 --> 00:46:26.375 who might hate your project, right? 1094 00:46:26.675 --> 00:46:29.655 Who might be somewhere in between that, that finicky fan. 1095 00:46:30.035 --> 00:46:33.535 And so the first step is just identify them 1096 00:46:33.715 --> 00:46:37.415 and then start to realize, okay, who might not be a fan 1097 00:46:37.415 --> 00:46:39.055 of this project for any reason at all? 1098 00:46:39.425 --> 00:46:43.935 Right? So like, if the, if the sponsor has a conflict 1099 00:46:44.045 --> 00:46:47.295 with another leader in the organization, it 1100 00:46:47.525 --> 00:46:49.175 that could just come with it just 1101 00:46:49.175 --> 00:46:50.495 because they, they just don't, 1102 00:46:51.125 --> 00:46:53.335 they just don't like each other, you know? 1103 00:46:53.735 --> 00:46:55.415 I mean, yeah, people are people, right? 1104 00:46:55.435 --> 00:46:56.535 It could be anything. 1105 00:46:56.835 --> 00:46:59.535 And so if you are the project manager, right? 1106 00:46:59.595 --> 00:47:02.215 Or you're the PMO leader who's advising your project 1107 00:47:02.215 --> 00:47:05.215 managers on how to, how to figure the people side out, 1108 00:47:05.485 --> 00:47:08.015 this is one of the ways where it's like, have, 1109 00:47:08.015 --> 00:47:10.175 make sure everybody's having the private conversation 1110 00:47:10.705 --> 00:47:13.495 about the people, which is very uncomfortable for people, 1111 00:47:13.495 --> 00:47:16.135 which is why I use animals instead, right? 1112 00:47:16.195 --> 00:47:18.935 And say, okay, who might be a snake in the grass here? 1113 00:47:19.275 --> 00:47:21.855 And then think about, well, what is their perspective? 1114 00:47:21.855 --> 00:47:24.655 Because then as you said, Stewart, then you can figure out, 1115 00:47:24.655 --> 00:47:26.895 okay, are they just gonna defend their territory? 1116 00:47:27.355 --> 00:47:29.845 Are they just gonna be part of the resistance just 1117 00:47:29.865 --> 00:47:31.525 for resistance sake, right? 1118 00:47:31.585 --> 00:47:33.205 Are they, like, what is their perspective? 1119 00:47:33.345 --> 00:47:35.965 And then you can prepare for, all right, 1120 00:47:35.965 --> 00:47:37.045 well what are we gonna do about this? 1121 00:47:37.385 --> 00:47:40.765 And sometimes, and I encourage this too, the PM is like, 1122 00:47:40.875 --> 00:47:41.885 well, they said to do nothing. 1123 00:47:42.005 --> 00:47:43.565 I said, write that down, write that down. 1124 00:47:43.565 --> 00:47:45.125 Then the sponsor said, do nothing. 1125 00:47:45.195 --> 00:47:46.445 Wait and see, write it down. 1126 00:47:46.595 --> 00:47:49.565 Because later if that snake comes up and bite you, 1127 00:47:49.585 --> 00:47:51.365 and they go, well, why didn't you see that coming? 1128 00:47:51.365 --> 00:47:52.925 You'll be like, we talked about this 1129 00:47:53.065 --> 00:47:55.365 and we said, do nothing and wait and see. 1130 00:47:55.595 --> 00:47:58.325 It's right here in black and white. You know? 1131 00:47:58.585 --> 00:48:00.885 And so, oh yeah. Because we have short term memory loss 1132 00:48:00.885 --> 00:48:02.285 problems a lot of times as sponsors. 1133 00:48:03.925 --> 00:48:06.845 Absolutely. Uh, absolutely. Uh, a hundred percent. 1134 00:48:07.265 --> 00:48:08.445 And, you know, and, 1135 00:48:08.665 --> 00:48:12.005 and again, I think it's important, uh, to, to highlight that 1136 00:48:13.335 --> 00:48:15.835 the project manager and the PMO, right? 1137 00:48:16.575 --> 00:48:20.955 You are there as custodians of a change process 1138 00:48:21.495 --> 00:48:22.915 or series as of change processes. 1139 00:48:23.965 --> 00:48:26.425 You stay with that change progress process, 1140 00:48:26.575 --> 00:48:28.585 usually from the beginning to the end. 1141 00:48:30.185 --> 00:48:32.085 You're the only person that lives it day to day. 1142 00:48:33.505 --> 00:48:36.555 Your individual delivery resources come in and they go out. 1143 00:48:37.645 --> 00:48:40.215 Your stakeholder, you know, your, your sponsor, 1144 00:48:40.755 --> 00:48:43.255 he thinks about this once every two weeks when you have your 1145 00:48:43.255 --> 00:48:45.595 one hour meeting the rest of the time. 1146 00:48:45.595 --> 00:48:47.235 Mm-Hmm. The rest of the time the head's full 1147 00:48:47.235 --> 00:48:48.595 of other stuff, right? 1148 00:48:49.215 --> 00:48:50.475 So could be, yep. Mm-Hmm. 1149 00:48:50.775 --> 00:48:54.075 So, so, um, you know, it, it is important to understand 1150 00:48:54.665 --> 00:48:56.395 that stakeholder map, right? 1151 00:48:56.515 --> 00:48:59.715 I, I, I like, um, I like that stakeholder matrix 1152 00:49:00.905 --> 00:49:02.045 way of putting it as shock. 1153 00:49:02.045 --> 00:49:05.645 And that's a really nice way just understanding, you know, 1154 00:49:05.755 --> 00:49:07.565 what, what animals do you have around the table? 1155 00:49:08.405 --> 00:49:10.305 But, but remember that people just 1156 00:49:10.465 --> 00:49:13.975 'cause somebody is a snake now, or a gazelle 1157 00:49:13.975 --> 00:49:15.335 or whatever they are, right? 1158 00:49:16.015 --> 00:49:18.385 Doesn't mean that's what they'll always be, right? 1159 00:49:19.375 --> 00:49:20.995 It just means that's what they are now, 1160 00:49:21.615 --> 00:49:25.245 and you can decide, you know, you can actually do things 1161 00:49:25.745 --> 00:49:26.885 to change the kind of animal, 1162 00:49:26.905 --> 00:49:28.405 or at least the way the animal's behaving. 1163 00:49:28.515 --> 00:49:31.125 Yeah. Just like with the, just like with a bear, right? 1164 00:49:31.125 --> 00:49:32.125 If you go in with a big stick 1165 00:49:32.125 --> 00:49:33.565 and you poke the bear, it's gonna growl, 1166 00:49:34.105 --> 00:49:35.845 so don't poke the bear. Right? 1167 00:49:36.075 --> 00:49:38.295 Exactly. Yeah. I love that. 1168 00:49:38.475 --> 00:49:39.495 And in fact, you know, 1169 00:49:39.705 --> 00:49:42.215 since there are clearly some PMO leaders on the line, 1170 00:49:42.295 --> 00:49:45.575 I just wanna point out like, so back to that story about 1171 00:49:45.575 --> 00:49:47.975 how we were changing the way the whole organization did it. 1172 00:49:47.995 --> 00:49:49.175 And I checked in with sponsors 1173 00:49:49.175 --> 00:49:53.735 and stuff, I would as assign, I, I assigned a pm a Pro PM 1174 00:49:54.475 --> 00:49:56.135 to a sponsor and said to her, 1175 00:49:56.805 --> 00:49:58.495 your job is to turn this guy around. 1176 00:49:59.275 --> 00:50:03.985 He is against us. He doesn't get it. 1177 00:50:04.205 --> 00:50:05.745 He wants us to run this project 1178 00:50:05.745 --> 00:50:07.905 because if it fails, then it's on us. 1179 00:50:08.455 --> 00:50:10.025 Like, this is what is happening. 1180 00:50:10.385 --> 00:50:12.185 I need you to go in with eyes wide open 1181 00:50:12.415 --> 00:50:13.745 that this is what is happening. 1182 00:50:14.125 --> 00:50:16.875 He is today an enemy 1183 00:50:17.175 --> 00:50:19.155 and you need to turn him into a fan. 1184 00:50:19.855 --> 00:50:22.795 Are you up for it? And I knew she would be, and she was. 1185 00:50:23.055 --> 00:50:24.395 And that's exactly what she did. 1186 00:50:24.455 --> 00:50:26.155 So not only did she run the project 1187 00:50:26.335 --> 00:50:29.445 and help him be successful with his very risky project, 1188 00:50:29.985 --> 00:50:31.965 but also she turned him into a fan. 1189 00:50:32.385 --> 00:50:36.205 And so when I, when I would check in with him, the, 1190 00:50:36.665 --> 00:50:39.885 the demeanor changed, you know, over time 1191 00:50:39.885 --> 00:50:43.405 because he, he was not, he didn't get it at first. 1192 00:50:43.505 --> 00:50:46.565 He just, he had never experienced this, this type of thing 1193 00:50:46.565 --> 00:50:48.845 before, but he was an ambitious guy 1194 00:50:49.185 --> 00:50:51.805 and he really wanted to obviously, you know, do well. 1195 00:50:51.945 --> 00:50:55.125 And, um, and, but he was also trying to cover his bases. 1196 00:50:55.515 --> 00:50:56.515 Like 1197 00:50:57.415 --> 00:50:59.935 I, and, and, and you know, I I, by the way, I, 1198 00:50:59.935 --> 00:51:01.775 I love Ed's thing, so give this snake a rat. 1199 00:51:02.335 --> 00:51:06.175 I I like that. Um, so that, so that's, that's brilliant. 1200 00:51:06.275 --> 00:51:07.575 But, but sometimes, you know what, 1201 00:51:07.575 --> 00:51:08.775 you can give the snake a rat. 1202 00:51:09.275 --> 00:51:12.055 Uh, you can, you can carefully go around its territory. 1203 00:51:12.235 --> 00:51:15.615 You can get someone to shout at it, and, 1204 00:51:15.795 --> 00:51:18.015 and it just, it's just not gonna play. 1205 00:51:18.015 --> 00:51:19.215 It's gonna try and bite you anyway. 1206 00:51:19.915 --> 00:51:21.775 And, you know, sometimes that happens. 1207 00:51:22.555 --> 00:51:26.015 And, and at the end of the day, that is, that's another risk 1208 00:51:26.365 --> 00:51:29.855 that goes on your risk register at some level, right? 1209 00:51:29.875 --> 00:51:30.935 Yes. You, and, 1210 00:51:31.155 --> 00:51:33.095 and you say, great, we have a risk that some 1211 00:51:33.095 --> 00:51:34.535 of our stakeholders aren't buying in. 1212 00:51:35.005 --> 00:51:36.955 Right? And, and you make it visible 1213 00:51:37.495 --> 00:51:40.155 and you have a discussion with, with your sponsor, 1214 00:51:40.295 --> 00:51:41.595 and you figure out what you do. 1215 00:51:42.145 --> 00:51:43.275 Yeah. What are we gonna do about it? 1216 00:51:43.335 --> 00:51:44.435 You know? And, and for 1217 00:51:44.435 --> 00:51:45.835 Those, it might be, and it might be 1218 00:51:45.835 --> 00:51:47.275 that the right answer is that this, that, 1219 00:51:47.275 --> 00:51:49.915 that your sponsor will go and, and shoot a snake 1220 00:51:49.915 --> 00:51:51.035 and put another animal in there. 1221 00:51:51.425 --> 00:51:53.695 Yeah, absolutely. That's a Good outcome. 1222 00:51:54.195 --> 00:51:57.295 Yep. And sometimes, you know, there have, I used to think 1223 00:51:57.315 --> 00:52:01.505 as a PM that I had to do everything right, that it was up 1224 00:52:01.505 --> 00:52:04.145 to me to do everything because I had had really bad sponsors 1225 00:52:04.145 --> 00:52:06.465 that did nothing before anybody been there. 1226 00:52:07.005 --> 00:52:09.785 And uh, and then I realized like, oh, 1227 00:52:09.935 --> 00:52:12.185 when we have this stakeholder analysis 1228 00:52:12.765 --> 00:52:15.025 men management matrix in front of people's faces, 1229 00:52:15.725 --> 00:52:18.105 and we go, okay, what are we gonna do about this? 1230 00:52:18.795 --> 00:52:22.625 Right? Sometimes the best answer is the sponsor has 1231 00:52:22.625 --> 00:52:23.705 to do something about it. 1232 00:52:23.705 --> 00:52:25.905 They're in the best position to do something about it, 1233 00:52:25.905 --> 00:52:26.985 just as you said, Stuart. 1234 00:52:27.325 --> 00:52:30.585 And it could be like, listen, you know, you need 1235 00:52:30.585 --> 00:52:33.905 to make sure that you take that person to lunch, 1236 00:52:33.905 --> 00:52:37.185 that you have a coffee conversation with them over, 1237 00:52:37.445 --> 00:52:41.145 you know, over virtually that you understand them, 1238 00:52:41.145 --> 00:52:42.825 that you develop a relationship with them, 1239 00:52:43.045 --> 00:52:44.345 you know, whatever it is. 1240 00:52:44.745 --> 00:52:46.305 Whatever it is, right? 1241 00:52:46.445 --> 00:52:49.105 Do whatever you need to do to get the humans to do 1242 00:52:49.105 --> 00:52:51.105 what they need to do, when they need to do 'em, right? 1243 00:52:51.105 --> 00:52:53.425 That's kind of what you, what your job is as a pm 1244 00:52:53.765 --> 00:52:57.425 and our job as PMO leaders is to support our PMs in doing 1245 00:52:57.425 --> 00:52:58.545 that and have their backs. 1246 00:53:00.345 --> 00:53:02.955 Beautiful. So we've got just a couple of minutes left. 1247 00:53:03.615 --> 00:53:08.115 Um, so, uh, so what I'd like to do, so, so Dawn, 1248 00:53:08.135 --> 00:53:12.785 is just give you a couple of minutes to, um, tell people 1249 00:53:13.075 --> 00:53:15.505 where they can get the book, where they can reach you 1250 00:53:16.125 --> 00:53:18.065 if they need help and support beyond the book. 1251 00:53:18.685 --> 00:53:21.945 Um, I understand you do bar mitzvahs and golf tournaments. 1252 00:53:25.135 --> 00:53:26.475 That's, that's very funny. 1253 00:53:26.815 --> 00:53:31.715 Um, So I am pulling up, um, 1254 00:53:33.175 --> 00:53:36.275 the, so of course you can find it on Amazon, 1255 00:53:36.855 --> 00:53:41.355 but also, um, you can go to this link I'm pulling up now 1256 00:53:41.535 --> 00:53:44.115 and I'm gonna drop it in the chat. 1257 00:53:44.335 --> 00:53:49.195 Uh, and so the book is available, um, 1258 00:53:49.655 --> 00:53:52.075 in, you know, on Amazon and beyond, certainly. 1259 00:53:52.175 --> 00:53:54.315 And so I'm gonna drop that in the chat for everyone here. 1260 00:53:55.865 --> 00:53:58.515 Hold please. Here we go. There it is. 1261 00:53:58.775 --> 00:54:03.195 Um, and if you do get the book 1262 00:54:04.225 --> 00:54:09.045 and you do, um, you know, like the book, uh, 1263 00:54:09.145 --> 00:54:12.445 please give it your highest star rating possible 1264 00:54:14.545 --> 00:54:16.005 and say something nice if you would, 1265 00:54:16.005 --> 00:54:20.725 because our publicist, by the way, is killing me with, 1266 00:54:20.985 --> 00:54:22.885 you know, Dawn, we need 50 reviews. 1267 00:54:22.945 --> 00:54:25.765 So the last time I checked, we had 22 reviews 1268 00:54:26.505 --> 00:54:28.285 and we need to get to 50 on Amazon 1269 00:54:28.285 --> 00:54:30.565 because as far as media goes 1270 00:54:30.565 --> 00:54:32.005 and all that stuff, um, 1271 00:54:32.585 --> 00:54:34.445 Amazon is the Google of books he says. 1272 00:54:35.025 --> 00:54:37.805 And so anybody that doesn't know me, whatever, will go 1273 00:54:37.805 --> 00:54:39.765 to Amazon and go, oh, what are the reviews? 1274 00:54:39.865 --> 00:54:41.005 Say, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 1275 00:54:41.345 --> 00:54:43.405 Now if you have suggestions for the books, 1276 00:54:43.805 --> 00:54:45.485 'cause some of you are analysts, right? 1277 00:54:45.545 --> 00:54:48.965 And, and even God in heaven would not get five stars from 1278 00:54:48.965 --> 00:54:52.045 you, please send me a LinkedIn message 1279 00:54:53.225 --> 00:54:54.445 and let me know what it would take 1280 00:54:54.445 --> 00:54:55.845 to get your five star review. 1281 00:54:56.165 --> 00:54:58.805 I would be really curious about that. I love feedback. 1282 00:54:59.125 --> 00:55:00.165 I love, love, love feedback. 1283 00:55:00.425 --> 00:55:01.885 So tell me what you really think. 1284 00:55:02.145 --> 00:55:04.725 So please invite you to link in with me. 1285 00:55:04.725 --> 00:55:06.445 Stewart and I are connected on LinkedIn, 1286 00:55:06.465 --> 00:55:09.085 so if you're connected with Stewart, then a friend 1287 00:55:09.085 --> 00:55:11.405 of his is a friend of mine, uh, on LinkedIn, 1288 00:55:11.405 --> 00:55:13.245 please check it out and I'd be 1289 00:55:13.245 --> 00:55:14.685 delighted to hear what you think. 1290 00:55:15.065 --> 00:55:18.085 And, um, and you know, your version 1291 00:55:18.105 --> 00:55:19.565 of Project Land, tell me more. 1292 00:55:20.265 --> 00:55:22.245 So please link in with me. That's the best way to get 1293 00:55:22.505 --> 00:55:24.365 And, and stop being cheap guys. 1294 00:55:24.755 --> 00:55:26.605 Come on. 20, 20 bucks 1295 00:55:26.625 --> 00:55:29.805 or whatever it is for, for 25 years experience. 1296 00:55:29.805 --> 00:55:30.845 That's a bargain. It's 1297 00:55:30.915 --> 00:55:32.325 9 99 for the ebook. 1298 00:55:32.435 --> 00:55:36.085 9 99. Come on, come on. Stop being cheap. 9 99 1299 00:55:36.105 --> 00:55:36.965 For the ebook. Yeah. 1300 00:55:37.185 --> 00:55:40.085 Uh, by the way, I, I, I dunno, I dunno if, uh, 1301 00:55:40.625 --> 00:55:43.485 if anybody here has actually looked at writing a book, 1302 00:55:43.955 --> 00:55:45.645 authors never make money from books. 1303 00:55:46.025 --> 00:55:47.125 No. Right? It's, 1304 00:55:47.275 --> 00:55:48.275 It's used. Yeah, we're the whole 1305 00:55:48.275 --> 00:55:49.885 like for real in the whole, right? 1306 00:55:49.885 --> 00:55:52.845 Yeah. Because it's such an expensive endeavor. Yep. Mm-hmm, 1307 00:55:53.365 --> 00:55:54.325 Absolutely. Um, yeah, 1308 00:55:54.435 --> 00:55:55.445 It's a labor of love. 1309 00:55:55.505 --> 00:55:56.965 So thank you for saying that to 1310 00:55:56.965 --> 00:55:57.965 Her. Yes, it does. 1311 00:55:57.965 --> 00:56:01.165 I mean, it costs 10, it costs the authors tens 1312 00:56:01.165 --> 00:56:03.845 of thousands, possibly even over a hundred thousand just 1313 00:56:03.845 --> 00:56:05.205 to get a book out and launched. 1314 00:56:05.865 --> 00:56:10.285 Um, and so, you know, typically, Dawn, I know this is kind 1315 00:56:10.285 --> 00:56:12.285 of your motivation, Laura's motivation, 1316 00:56:12.595 --> 00:56:14.445 Heather's motivation, right? 1317 00:56:14.705 --> 00:56:16.725 Is, is sharing that experience 1318 00:56:16.825 --> 00:56:18.765 and giving back to the community at some level. 1319 00:56:20.075 --> 00:56:21.085 Yeah, for sure. So please do, 1320 00:56:21.185 --> 00:56:23.565 please do support these guys 'cause they are heroes. 1321 00:56:24.225 --> 00:56:27.885 Um, the, their knowledge helps, helps us all do better and, 1322 00:56:27.905 --> 00:56:28.925 and inspires us all. 1323 00:56:28.985 --> 00:56:31.965 So thank you Dawn. Thank you everybody for joining us, 1324 00:56:32.105 --> 00:56:36.045 but also for, for jumping in and, uh, being so active 1325 00:56:36.305 --> 00:56:38.005 and getting with the spirit of the session. 1326 00:56:38.065 --> 00:56:40.965 Really enjoyed the, the interactions, um, 1327 00:56:41.865 --> 00:56:44.365 and, uh, you know, a shock as usual. 1328 00:56:45.075 --> 00:56:47.805 Nice work, Leo. Like I said, go find a therapist 1329 00:56:48.625 --> 00:56:51.645 and, uh, uh, 1330 00:56:51.945 --> 00:56:53.965 but, uh, really thank you everybody for joining. 1331 00:56:54.355 --> 00:56:55.725 Joan, didn't to see you there, how are you doing? 1332 00:56:56.265 --> 00:56:58.605 Um, uh, so thank you all for joining. 1333 00:56:59.185 --> 00:57:01.965 Uh, do reach out and follow us on LinkedIn. 1334 00:57:02.405 --> 00:57:06.245 Subscribe to our newsletter so that you get, um, uh, 1335 00:57:06.245 --> 00:57:08.485 notification for other webinars. 1336 00:57:09.545 --> 00:57:12.325 We do two a month, usually a fun one like this, a kind 1337 00:57:12.325 --> 00:57:14.885 of uh, uh, deep insight, one like this 1338 00:57:15.025 --> 00:57:16.525 and, uh, and then a demo webinar. 1339 00:57:16.585 --> 00:57:18.485 So come to those. We always try 1340 00:57:18.485 --> 00:57:20.325 and make 'em a little bit fun, a little bit different. 1341 00:57:20.465 --> 00:57:21.805 I'm not a big fan of talking heads. 1342 00:57:22.545 --> 00:57:25.485 Um, and uh, so thank you everybody for joining. 1343 00:57:25.675 --> 00:57:27.005 Dawn a Million. Thanks. 1344 00:57:28.275 --> 00:57:29.705 Thank you Stuart for having me. 1345 00:57:29.765 --> 00:57:31.905 And, uh, remember everybody, it's about the people. 1346 00:57:32.825 --> 00:57:34.395 It's about the people and it's about the 1347 00:57:34.395 --> 00:57:35.875 eggs, not the ducks. 1348 00:57:36.505 --> 00:57:41.355 Yeah. Which is where we started the conversation. Excellent. 1349 00:57:41.385 --> 00:57:42.795 Very good. Thanks folks.