WEBVTT

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So this seems seems like a really good time

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to introduce our speakers.

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Um, so I'm, I'm gonna, Amanda, I'm gonna come

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to you second actually 'cause

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'cause that's gonna segue into picking off.

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Um, so, um, uh, first of all, Adrian.

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Adrian. Hi.

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Hi. There he is. Uh, so there you go.

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That, that's got a camera onto you.

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So, um, uh, I, I first met Adrian, uh, a couple of years,

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two, three years ago, Adrian, at the book launch, wasn't

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It, mid, mid 2022 at the book launch? Yes.

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Yeah, there you go. So we were all just sort

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of still finding our way out from, uh,

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underneath Lockdowns and things like that.

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And, uh, we, we all huddled in a, in an office in,

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in London up, actually, it wasn't in an office,

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it was in a restaurant, wasn't it?

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Yes. Uh, but with a beautiful view of the city of London.

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It was absolutely stunning.

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Um, and I was introduced to, to Adrian, um,

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who'd written a book on P 3G.

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Right. So project, program, portfolio governance,

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and, uh, sort of co-edited it.

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Uh, co-created it with, uh, Ross Garland

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and certification that goes along

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with it and all that kind of good stuff.

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And Adrian's been doing this stuff for a long time.

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Um, uh, wasn't sign. I'm old, Stuart. I am No, no.

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It's a sign of wisdom. It basically means you made

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every mistake you can make.

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Right? That's, that's, that's the definite,

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Yeah. Was maybe,

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maybe not.

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Yeah. I'm sure there's one or two more to be made.

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Um, um, uh, you know, and, and ex-partner at pwc, um,

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but with a real focus around sort of governance

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and, uh, um, project, project management.

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Um, so I'm really excited to have, uh, Adrian with us today.

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Um, these days, uh, you, you left pwc, right?

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And so tell, just, just tell us, spend a minute,

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tell us what you're doing these days.

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Yeah, so thanks Stuart.

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Um, and, uh, hello to everybody online.

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Um, so these days I have my own business.

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I'm in a privileged position where I work as,

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as an SMEA subject matter expert with a small number

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of organizations, typically around their ways of working.

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And a lot of that is around governance, so improving

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how they govern

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or manage their investments, projects,

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programs, and portfolios.

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Uh, so I have three specific clients at the moment, each one

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of those sizable in its own ride,

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and I'm taking 'em through significant change journeys to

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optimize their governance arrangements.

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So it's a lot of fun, challenging, um,

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but, uh, I'm really in a privileged position

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where people welcome the expertise,

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but at the same time, I don't have to build a team anymore,

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which is, you know, and run a business.

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So that part of my life is long gone,

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which I'm, I'm quite grateful for.

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Yeah, that's good stuff. Good stuff.

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Um, and just tell us where you're sitting

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and a little bit about where, where

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you're sitting, if you would as well. Well, yeah.

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So it sits here in Brisbane. It's 8:00 AM in the morning.

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I haven't got a wine. I've got a coffee.

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And, um, so yeah, Brisbane based, um,

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which is on the east coast of Australia.

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You'd think Australia might have some

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of the same time zones, but it's eight o'clock here

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or eight 10 now.

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And where Amanda is, it's nine 10.

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But, um, we won't go into that.

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But, uh, yes, Australia's a big country.

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And, uh, I was, uh, originally a Brit, uh,

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still had my, my British passport.

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Spent the first sort of 30 years, uh, in and around the uk.

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And, uh, but moved over here, um, sort of 2000 ish.

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And, uh, yeah, loving life.

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Excellent. Very good. So, so you,

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you mentioned Amanda there, uh, let me introduce Amanda.

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So, uh, Amanda and I first met

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Ah, arguing.

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Arguing. We did, yeah, I, I, I pasted the classic, uh,

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clickbait, uh, type blog, you know, PMOs,

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add no value or something like that.

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And, and of course the whole point

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of the blog was the exact opposite of that.

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But Amanda didn't read the blog.

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She just read the title and then started flaming me online.

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Yeah. Um, uh, so that,

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and I think you, you were, you were at Deloitte

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at the time, I think, weren't you?

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Yeah. Yeah.

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I just come into Deloitte to do program recovery.

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Uh, that was at the 2016.

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2016. There you go.

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There you go. And,

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and from that, from that first argument on LinkedIn,

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we figured we'd set up a call and we,

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and we just got on, we just kind of clicked argue

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Face to face. Yeah,

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Yeah, exactly.

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Um, and then we actually got to meet face

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to face just a couple of months ago.

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Yeah. Which was absolutely stupid. Took me out.

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I actually saw kangaroos out in the, out in the fields

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with a little Joey in the pouch.

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It was just, it was absolutely brilliant.

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Um, but the, we, we,

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we did a podcast shortly

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after our first discussion together.

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And in that, in that podcast, so Amanda's done, you know,

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lots of, you know, recovery and, uh, portfolio work

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and delivery for IBM running delivery for IBM

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and a bunch of other stuff.

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But on that first podcast, I, I threw something out that

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at the time I thought was quite controversial

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because not many people were kind of thinking

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or talking this way explicitly.

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And I said something along the lines of, you know,

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prioritization and things like that, uh, are the root cause

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of an awful lot of project failure.

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And quick as anything, Amanda came back

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and said, no, no, you've got it wrong.

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Governance is the root of all project failure. Right.

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And, and that was sort of, for me, that was my wake up call

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that says, oh, okay, you gotta,

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you gotta learn a bit more about this governance,

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governance more generally.

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'cause at the time I was very, very focused

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around prioritization and, uh, and so Amanda

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and others have helped me on that journey.

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And here we are. So we're gonna dig in a little bit

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deeper today.

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So, Amanda, do, before we do that,

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do you wanna tell us a little bit about, you know,

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what you're working on these days?

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I've me sort of said what you've been doing. Oh,

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Yeah.

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Yeah. These days, so I've left, I've left running, um, sort

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of larger groups of, of delivery, um, out

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of IBM was my last one, uh, where we were actually running

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that business, um, much like Adrian, a bit more, uh,

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on my own, except I'm still pulling teams together.

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So currently involved in a global m and a, uh, looking

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after the region for, um, uh, food services and testing.

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Um, anyone quick enough on Google, you'll be able to find

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that it's all over the, all over the internet.

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Um, but which is, which is absolutely fantastic.

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But like Stuart said, we're, I'm now setting up larger

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companies, um, inclusive of every project that they,

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they want to do to move forward to ensure that it's set up

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in the correct way for the company to have growth,

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uh, and hit the market.

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And whether I've always been an advocate for, whether it's

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a portfolio of projects that you're thinking about

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or it's actually a business,

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it's pretty much the same frameworks.

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Um, there's, there's not much in it between Oh,

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Okay. Right.

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Setting up a large business and then,

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or setting up a business.

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And I mean, look at, you think about it is if you're running

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the portfolio and they, all the projects that's, there's,

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there's not much in it between when sort

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of looking at the business structure and,

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and how and the operating.

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Absolutely. Right. We'll, we'll come back

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to that idea, Amanda.

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I like that. We'll come, we'll come back to that.

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I'll, I've just made a note of that one.

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We'll, we'll come back to, I

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Look at you in your pen.

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So, so, so here, so, so let's come back to

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that, that conversation, right?

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We didn't, we had that discussion on the podcast,

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and you, you said, you know, all failure comes back to

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project failure, comes back to failure of governance.

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So tell me about that.

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Why do you, why do you think that, you know,

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it's not like you've, you've experienced

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or seen any failing projects or anything, right?

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Oh, people think governance is about minutes

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or about, um, yeah, they, they seem to align governance

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to many, many people align, um, concepts down to artifacts

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and or processes.

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But governance at its heart, it's just the decision making.

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How, how you make the decision.

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Now, if you can't make decisions, um, you Yeah.

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Or you're making incorrectly informed decisions, um, well,

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you're not gonna get anywhere full stop.

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That's probably at the heart of it.

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Uh, you, you, you can

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make all the decisions you like based off

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the, off the, you know.

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Yeah. There we go. Rebecca said,

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a governor's all lack there off,

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or we, I've got, I've, I've got a recent incident,

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for example, where the company has pulled together

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governance and the, and the difference

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between words and actions.

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They have a governance structure,

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they have an organizational structure, they have intent,

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but when you watch the behaviors,

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it all goes out the window, right?

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So you've got a, a business that has, uh,

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all the on paper looks like it should be functioning,

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but when you walk in the door

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and you actually have a look at the behaviors,

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they're completely in, you know, do not align

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to, to that governance structure or intent.

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So they sort of tick the box,

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and then you wonder why you just, it,

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you can't just put a piece of paper.

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You can't just, well, we all know it.

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Don't, you can't just run prints to, um, PMBOK

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and put the book in front of someone

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and say, read that and you'll be fine.

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You've got a, you've got a PD

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and you've got, you've got a, you know,

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you've set up your business case, and,

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and you, you can't, it's how we do it.

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It's the actions that speak far louder than the words.

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So, so, so coming to those actions, um, agent,

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how would you define governance around projects, portfolio?

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You know, P 3G? Yeah, so, sorry, go ahead.

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Is that any more of that question, Stuart? Sorry.

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No, no, no. Go for it. Go for it.

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Um, so, you know, as, as Amanda said, at the heart

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of governance is decision making.

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And so, um, that's decision making at each

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level in a hierarchy.

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If, if you look at projects, programs, portfolios, um,

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and what, what sits alongside that then is accountability.

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And accountability is absolutely critical.

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Understanding who's accountable

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for different, different decisions.

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But people often talk about accountability without actually

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then talking about empowerment.

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And empowerment needs to be twinned with, uh,

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accountability, IE the, the authority to make decisions.

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And that decision making doesn't just sit within governance

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groups within that sort of P three hierarchy.

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It sits within the project team itself.

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And so the concept there is, you know,

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should delegate decisions to the lowest practical level.

251
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But as, as Amanda was saying, um, you know,

252
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and I, I, I did a post on this recently.

253
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I'm really passionate about governance.

254
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And one of the things that I really like is the nexus

255
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between structure, process, and people.

256
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And as Amanda says, you can get, have the,

257
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the most amazing structure,

258
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different governance groups set up, uh,

259
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the right people in accountable roles, different escalation,

260
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reporting pathways.

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You've got these associated processes that work in terms

262
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of informing decision making, escalation

263
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evidence-based, um, models.

264
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But it's, when the humans get involved,

265
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it can go either terribly right or terribly wrong.

266
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And I've seen both.

267
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Um, and so, you know, when I invest in,

268
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in looking at things like governance in organizations,

269
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I invest a lot of time not only in terms of

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creating some structures and process

271
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and all the supporting artifacts

272
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and taking people through a change journey to optimize those

273
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or create those arrangements,

274
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but there's a lot of coaching, there's a lot of coaching

275
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of individuals to understand their respective roles.

276
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And, you know, I've seen some comments in here in

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the, the, the chat.

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Mm-Hmm. You know, governance is the root

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of all evil and mm-Hmm.

280
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Uh, in, I can see.

281
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And I've seen organizations where it is overly bureaucratic,

282
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it doesn't add any value, and people sit in meetings,

283
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and those meetings add no value.

284
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If you sit in a meeting and you think you're in a governance

285
00:12:42.245 --> 00:12:45.205
meeting, and all you are doing is getting a progress update,

286
00:12:45.945 --> 00:12:49.245
um, regurgitating what's been brought into the committee in

287
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terms of reports, just getting people standing up

288
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and giving, uh, status, um, information

289
00:12:55.985 --> 00:12:57.005
that's not governance.

290
00:12:57.775 --> 00:13:00.805
Governance is going back to your question, Stuart.

291
00:13:00.935 --> 00:13:03.045
Governance is about decision making.

292
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And that decision making exists at all levels within

293
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a, an organization.

294
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And within that P three environment, you know,

295
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project managers need to be, uh, empowered

296
00:13:13.085 --> 00:13:15.565
to make decisions within certain levels of authority.

297
00:13:16.065 --> 00:13:17.925
And sometimes that doesn't happen.

298
00:13:18.025 --> 00:13:21.005
And that's really frustrating for, for project managers

299
00:13:21.195 --> 00:13:23.205
because, uh, you are just stymieing their

300
00:13:23.235 --> 00:13:24.605
ability to execute.

301
00:13:25.025 --> 00:13:26.845
At the end of the day, that's what they're there for.

302
00:13:27.425 --> 00:13:28.525
So it's important

303
00:13:28.525 --> 00:13:30.805
that you understand it's about decision making,

304
00:13:30.875 --> 00:13:32.685
it's about delegating authority

305
00:13:32.685 --> 00:13:34.285
and the right people at the right levels

306
00:13:34.305 --> 00:13:35.565
making the right decisions.

307
00:13:36.575 --> 00:13:39.635
So, so here's, here's the, so, so here's the question.

308
00:13:39.815 --> 00:13:42.475
Um, is, so, so it's all about decision making,

309
00:13:42.575 --> 00:13:43.995
and we've heard there's a bit of process

310
00:13:44.095 --> 00:13:45.275
and a bit of people, and a bit

311
00:13:45.275 --> 00:13:46.395
of this and a bit of that, right?

312
00:13:46.935 --> 00:13:48.555
And, and we, you know, you were starting

313
00:13:48.655 --> 00:13:51.515
to dig into processes and governance meetings

314
00:13:51.575 --> 00:13:52.835
and all this kind of good stuff.

315
00:13:52.845 --> 00:13:55.595
We'll get to that before we do though.

316
00:13:56.455 --> 00:13:58.395
Why, why do we even bother, right?

317
00:13:58.475 --> 00:14:01.235
A, a, Amanda, you and I had a, you and I had a conversation.

318
00:14:01.575 --> 00:14:04.155
It was, it was, it was, we had the band, it was one

319
00:14:04.155 --> 00:14:05.355
of the band sessions, right?

320
00:14:05.355 --> 00:14:07.675
Yeah. Where, where Laura Barnard and Mike Hannon

321
00:14:07.675 --> 00:14:08.915
and Donna Fitzgeral.

322
00:14:09.465 --> 00:14:11.555
Okay, let's, let's stop making decisions.

323
00:14:11.555 --> 00:14:13.635
Everybody just stop. I'd love to see that.

324
00:14:16.495 --> 00:14:18.645
We're just gonna decide today. No, no more decision.

325
00:14:18.715 --> 00:14:21.485
F**k it. I wanna go back to being 15. Let's be kids.

326
00:14:21.705 --> 00:14:25.765
You know, let's outsource all parenting and decisions

327
00:14:25.865 --> 00:14:28.805
and Oh, can we do that for a day and see what happens? That

328
00:14:28.805 --> 00:14:30.405
Would be good, wouldn't it? Yeah. Yeah.

329
00:14:31.045 --> 00:14:32.535
Yeah. It'd be absolutely great.

330
00:14:32.995 --> 00:14:34.375
That'd be, well, I don't know.

331
00:14:35.115 --> 00:14:36.535
We, we, we, you know, we did try.

332
00:14:36.575 --> 00:14:38.415
I, so, so for those of you don't know yet,

333
00:14:38.645 --> 00:14:41.055
there's quite a lot of familiar names on, on the,

334
00:14:41.155 --> 00:14:42.575
on the chat.

335
00:14:42.675 --> 00:14:44.295
So quite a lot of people know this already,

336
00:14:44.295 --> 00:14:46.375
but I have, I have 16-year-old twin boys,

337
00:14:46.915 --> 00:14:49.095
and I'm loving having 16-year-old twin boys, right?

338
00:14:49.175 --> 00:14:51.365
I thought it was gonna be horrible, painful process.

339
00:14:51.915 --> 00:14:54.565
It's magnificent. It's wonderful. I just love it.

340
00:14:54.905 --> 00:14:58.565
And we actually tried doing a teenage decision led day

341
00:14:59.635 --> 00:15:01.955
a little while ago where they made all the decisions.

342
00:15:01.955 --> 00:15:05.845
Oh, yeah. That's cool. How much fun did you have?

343
00:15:06.305 --> 00:15:09.245
We, we, we did actually, we watched some interesting films

344
00:15:09.315 --> 00:15:10.485
that I wouldn't have picked.

345
00:15:11.025 --> 00:15:12.405
We, we,

346
00:15:12.915 --> 00:15:14.805
meal times were slightly irregular,

347
00:15:15.385 --> 00:15:17.445
but it was a lot of fun. Yeah, it was good.

348
00:15:17.885 --> 00:15:19.245
I can I just change the comment?

349
00:15:19.445 --> 00:15:21.485
I just read something that Rebecca's put in

350
00:15:21.485 --> 00:15:22.885
this decision making can be simple.

351
00:15:22.915 --> 00:15:24.405
It's agendas, work agreements.

352
00:15:24.405 --> 00:15:28.445
It isn't, I'm gonna put it out there and be controversial.

353
00:15:28.635 --> 00:15:30.805
Controversial. There, there are artifacts

354
00:15:30.805 --> 00:15:32.245
that articulate a decision.

355
00:15:33.965 --> 00:15:36.585
So Rebecca, what do you mean the

356
00:15:36.745 --> 00:15:37.905
decisions come prior to that?

357
00:15:40.765 --> 00:15:42.225
See if she's quick on the keyboard.

358
00:15:42.375 --> 00:15:45.825
Yeah. See how, see how quick a type A, do you know

359
00:15:45.825 --> 00:15:49.425
what I'm, I'm gonna do something. Lay expectations.

360
00:15:49.645 --> 00:15:51.305
Oh, I keep talking about expectations, because that's

361
00:15:51.615 --> 00:15:53.425
What I saw from Arthur said, well,

362
00:15:53.425 --> 00:15:54.665
what do you do with behaviors?

363
00:15:55.135 --> 00:15:57.145
KPIs, KPIs can change your behavior.

364
00:15:57.175 --> 00:16:01.545
It's really fascinating, um, how people can respond to

365
00:16:01.545 --> 00:16:05.225
what those, what they're in incentivized to do.

366
00:16:06.205 --> 00:16:08.065
And it also comes down to leadership.

367
00:16:08.165 --> 00:16:09.625
If you're in a business

368
00:16:09.805 --> 00:16:12.625
or you're in an environment with a strong lack

369
00:16:12.625 --> 00:16:16.425
of solid leadership, I think you, you will see

370
00:16:16.425 --> 00:16:18.505
that decision making change.

371
00:16:18.825 --> 00:16:22.705
I just pinged in the chat to, if you've got some time,

372
00:16:23.235 --> 00:16:26.585
watch the presentation about greatness by David Marquette

373
00:16:27.165 --> 00:16:30.305
and how the empowerment that he applied

374
00:16:30.605 --> 00:16:35.225
to a nuclear submarine, humans too muck it all up.

375
00:16:35.885 --> 00:16:39.545
Um, and how to sort of, it's how to turn the ship

376
00:16:39.545 --> 00:16:40.905
around is what, what he calls it.

377
00:16:40.905 --> 00:16:43.945
But it's how to turn any, any sort of project environment

378
00:16:43.965 --> 00:16:48.465
around through devolution of, um, responsibility,

379
00:16:48.605 --> 00:16:50.625
not accountability, but responsibility.

380
00:16:51.405 --> 00:16:54.825
Um, the, the accountability analogy was he always had the

381
00:16:54.825 --> 00:16:58.305
red button, so he was allowed to press the release

382
00:16:58.305 --> 00:16:59.465
of the nuclear warhead.

383
00:16:59.645 --> 00:17:01.425
He didn't give that to, to anyone else.

384
00:17:02.245 --> 00:17:05.905
Um, and also came down to impact of that decision,

385
00:17:07.525 --> 00:17:10.205
um, which is, yeah,

386
00:17:10.485 --> 00:17:12.685
I think it is really valuable if you're thinking about both

387
00:17:12.685 --> 00:17:15.365
leader, which, which go hand in hand, leadership actions.

388
00:17:15.465 --> 00:17:19.935
And, um, yeah, your governance is sort of that,

389
00:17:20.085 --> 00:17:21.455
that triangle go.

390
00:17:24.545 --> 00:17:26.165
So, so, so, so

391
00:17:26.165 --> 00:17:28.605
before we start jumping into the, the details, right?

392
00:17:29.315 --> 00:17:32.845
Okay, Why do we, why do we, why do we do any

393
00:17:32.845 --> 00:17:34.165
of this at all?

394
00:17:34.265 --> 00:17:36.325
Why do we care? Why, why do we do project?

395
00:17:36.505 --> 00:17:38.245
Why do we care whether or not they successful?

396
00:17:39.395 --> 00:17:41.745
You'd be a blob in bed. What would you do if you didn't?

397
00:17:41.805 --> 00:17:46.535
That's so, it's, so, so,

398
00:17:46.535 --> 00:17:49.165
it's okay, Ashok, I, I saw Ash's name on here.

399
00:17:49.685 --> 00:17:51.525
Ashok, why do we do, why do we do projects?

400
00:17:51.745 --> 00:17:54.485
What's the point? That's mean, isn't it?

401
00:17:54.485 --> 00:17:55.525
To pick on someone and

402
00:17:55.995 --> 00:17:56.995
Yeah, go on. Yeah. Because

403
00:17:56.995 --> 00:17:58.365
we're evil. Uh,

404
00:17:59.215 --> 00:18:00.215
Right? But, but

405
00:18:00.215 --> 00:18:02.405
Ash's, Ashok knows where I'm going with this one.

406
00:18:02.785 --> 00:18:04.605
Uh, it's all about ducks and eggs, right?

407
00:18:05.625 --> 00:18:07.645
So, so, so the only reason you,

408
00:18:07.885 --> 00:18:10.285
because the business, your executives, they don't,

409
00:18:10.515 --> 00:18:12.085
they don't care about your projects.

410
00:18:12.835 --> 00:18:14.285
They honestly don't, they don't care about

411
00:18:14.875 --> 00:18:16.765
your perfect agile methodology

412
00:18:16.905 --> 00:18:20.645
or your wadge fall dreams, right?

413
00:18:21.065 --> 00:18:23.525
Oh, Ashok, There you go, Ashok. He's nailed it, right?

414
00:18:23.595 --> 00:18:24.885
It's to deliver the benefits.

415
00:18:26.395 --> 00:18:30.455
And, and so the point of governance is

416
00:18:30.455 --> 00:18:31.895
to make the decisions

417
00:18:32.835 --> 00:18:35.685
that help you deliver those benefits, right?

418
00:18:35.885 --> 00:18:39.685
'cause that's the only reason we do any of this work at all.

419
00:18:40.435 --> 00:18:44.135
So it's to, so, so it's to align, first of all,

420
00:18:44.465 --> 00:18:46.855
align your projects with the goals you're trying to achieve,

421
00:18:46.955 --> 00:18:47.855
and then to make sure you

422
00:18:48.015 --> 00:18:49.615
actually actually achieve them, right?

423
00:18:50.275 --> 00:18:54.315
So, so, agent, oh, hang on.

424
00:18:54.315 --> 00:18:56.915
Amanda's gonna have Amanda, she's just pulled the pinch.

425
00:18:56.915 --> 00:18:58.715
She's about to throw the grenade. Go. Then

426
00:18:59.235 --> 00:19:00.235
I don't like the reference.

427
00:19:00.275 --> 00:19:03.235
I, I agree with you. Uh, yes, Anne, right?

428
00:19:04.095 --> 00:19:05.795
But I just find that the, if you,

429
00:19:05.795 --> 00:19:08.115
if you're focusing on benefits, I remember this first,

430
00:19:08.215 --> 00:19:12.235
the argument we had, um, another one where it's benefit,

431
00:19:12.345 --> 00:19:15.035
like you, you start leaning into benefits management.

432
00:19:15.055 --> 00:19:18.115
You know, I have absolutely less time

433
00:19:18.115 --> 00:19:19.795
for benefits management than anything

434
00:19:19.795 --> 00:19:21.115
else for, for a reason.

435
00:19:21.455 --> 00:19:24.075
But I do like what Margaret said, outcomes

436
00:19:24.455 --> 00:19:26.435
for the business, for business growth.

437
00:19:26.715 --> 00:19:29.715
I think that's a little bit better than, than only, only

438
00:19:29.715 --> 00:19:34.015
because I start listening to people in regard to benefits

439
00:19:34.015 --> 00:19:36.695
and benefits management, which, which can come with a bit

440
00:19:36.695 --> 00:19:40.105
of a, a bite on your bum.

441
00:19:40.165 --> 00:19:42.625
But we, we won't get into benefits this, this time round.

442
00:19:42.695 --> 00:19:47.385
Yeah. Let's, let's, let's not, let's not, let's touch

443
00:19:47.385 --> 00:19:49.345
that one, because, because one of the questions No, that's

444
00:19:49.345 --> 00:19:52.385
Not, Well, one of the, one, hopefully we're gonna get

445
00:19:52.445 --> 00:19:55.025
to different levels of governance.

446
00:19:55.085 --> 00:19:56.865
And when we get to project governance, we'll,

447
00:19:57.115 --> 00:20:01.385
we'll maybe talk a bit about, uh, PMO with a project,

448
00:20:01.865 --> 00:20:03.745
PMO, and, 'cause I know, Amanda,

449
00:20:03.765 --> 00:20:05.305
you've got views on whether they're,

450
00:20:05.305 --> 00:20:07.025
they're even gonna exist in 10 years time,

451
00:20:07.285 --> 00:20:08.425
but let's not start there.

452
00:20:08.845 --> 00:20:13.445
Um, Adrian, let's come back to kind of what governance is.

453
00:20:13.445 --> 00:20:15.405
So it's about decision making with a view

454
00:20:15.405 --> 00:20:17.485
to getting those outcomes, those business outcomes.

455
00:20:18.225 --> 00:20:22.395
So, so when you, when you first talk to a,

456
00:20:22.655 --> 00:20:23.795
to a client, right?

457
00:20:23.935 --> 00:20:25.955
How, how do you start that conversation?

458
00:20:26.425 --> 00:20:29.675
Because one assumes that it's broken when you arrive.

459
00:20:30.255 --> 00:20:31.915
So how do you start the conversation about

460
00:20:32.985 --> 00:20:34.515
understanding what's going on

461
00:20:35.255 --> 00:20:38.475
and getting them to think about buying into interchanging

462
00:20:39.705 --> 00:20:43.195
the governance to make things better,

463
00:20:43.405 --> 00:20:44.835
which is kind of the point, right?

464
00:20:45.185 --> 00:20:47.565
Yeah. So it's, it is a really good question, Stuart.

465
00:20:47.585 --> 00:20:49.125
And I'm often called in when,

466
00:20:49.275 --> 00:20:51.285
when things aren't working well.

467
00:20:51.825 --> 00:20:55.285
Um, and some organizations understand

468
00:20:55.285 --> 00:20:59.125
that they're not getting the outcomes that they're seeking,

469
00:20:59.345 --> 00:21:04.005
but often their indicator is around delivery performance.

470
00:21:04.305 --> 00:21:08.125
And so, whilst we, we talk about projects are there,

471
00:21:08.745 --> 00:21:10.045
or pro projects

472
00:21:10.045 --> 00:21:13.305
and programs are there to actually deliver outcomes

473
00:21:13.325 --> 00:21:15.785
and benefits, at the end of the day, a lot

474
00:21:15.785 --> 00:21:18.785
of organizations focus in on the journey too much,

475
00:21:19.115 --> 00:21:23.785
which is then time performance, cost performance, scope, uh,

476
00:21:24.095 --> 00:21:25.785
risk, which are all very important.

477
00:21:26.085 --> 00:21:27.785
But that's usually some of their indicators

478
00:21:27.785 --> 00:21:31.465
that things aren't going well, they're over budget, uh,

479
00:21:31.485 --> 00:21:32.785
things are running behind.

480
00:21:33.915 --> 00:21:35.935
And some of that's obviously down to a number

481
00:21:35.935 --> 00:21:37.655
of different contributing factors.

482
00:21:38.665 --> 00:21:41.765
But once you start lifting the hood, what is the root cause?

483
00:21:42.975 --> 00:21:46.115
And so it's, it's a, uh, how should we say,

484
00:21:46.115 --> 00:21:47.475
an iterative discussion,

485
00:21:47.945 --> 00:21:50.635
because sometimes they'll just present some symptoms

486
00:21:51.575 --> 00:21:54.115
and you'll go, okay, well how's that, how's

487
00:21:54.115 --> 00:21:55.595
that actually, uh, come about?

488
00:21:55.695 --> 00:21:58.315
And you'd unpick it. And then it, you realize

489
00:21:58.315 --> 00:22:01.675
that there was maybe one of a number of things.

490
00:22:02.005 --> 00:22:05.315
There was no governance or no effective governance.

491
00:22:06.345 --> 00:22:08.025
IE nobody had accountability.

492
00:22:08.765 --> 00:22:13.065
Nobody was, um, on, on the case in terms of oversight

493
00:22:13.085 --> 00:22:14.145
and making decisions,

494
00:22:14.765 --> 00:22:17.105
or the wrong people were in those roles.

495
00:22:17.485 --> 00:22:20.625
And we've often all seen the missing sponsor sort

496
00:22:20.745 --> 00:22:23.305
of posters, which are, are kind of entertaining,

497
00:22:23.485 --> 00:22:25.505
but, uh, quite scary in fact.

498
00:22:26.415 --> 00:22:28.075
And so, uh, and,

499
00:22:28.075 --> 00:22:31.555
and so it's, it's a diagnostic process, Stuart, for me

500
00:22:32.055 --> 00:22:34.715
to come in and, and have that intuitive discussion and try

501
00:22:34.715 --> 00:22:35.835
and get through to the root causes.

502
00:22:36.135 --> 00:22:39.835
And as Amanda says, you know, a lot of this, that, that the,

503
00:22:39.835 --> 00:22:44.595
uh, governance is a key contributor to success or failure.

504
00:22:44.975 --> 00:22:47.715
And so, you know, it's important to understand that.

505
00:22:48.175 --> 00:22:50.835
But, but governance means different things

506
00:22:50.855 --> 00:22:52.115
to different organizations.

507
00:22:52.455 --> 00:22:55.915
And that's, that's something that when I start talking

508
00:22:55.975 --> 00:22:59.525
to organizations, coming back to your original question,

509
00:22:59.575 --> 00:23:01.325
which was, you know, what is governance?

510
00:23:01.595 --> 00:23:05.405
What is, and focusing in on decision making, accountability.

511
00:23:06.025 --> 00:23:08.405
So making the optimal decisions

512
00:23:08.465 --> 00:23:10.605
by the right people at the right time,

513
00:23:10.775 --> 00:23:13.685
using the right decision processes based on the right ev

514
00:23:13.965 --> 00:23:16.405
evidence within the right delegated authorities.

515
00:23:16.485 --> 00:23:18.525
Those are all things, but a lot

516
00:23:18.525 --> 00:23:21.885
of people get focused very much on the control environment.

517
00:23:22.255 --> 00:23:25.115
Mm-Hmm. And its controls they think about in when

518
00:23:25.115 --> 00:23:26.195
they're talking about governance.

519
00:23:26.575 --> 00:23:27.715
And once we unpick that,

520
00:23:28.095 --> 00:23:30.035
it becomes a very different discussion.

521
00:23:30.735 --> 00:23:34.395
And, um, then we introduce the concept of empowerment.

522
00:23:35.615 --> 00:23:38.115
And, uh, because people inherently understand

523
00:23:38.115 --> 00:23:40.475
accountability, although sometimes they confuse

524
00:23:40.475 --> 00:23:42.035
accountability and responsibility.

525
00:23:42.815 --> 00:23:44.075
But when we start saying,

526
00:23:44.535 --> 00:23:47.045
are you empowering your accountable people,

527
00:23:47.115 --> 00:23:48.325
your decision makers,

528
00:23:49.025 --> 00:23:51.605
are you actually separating decision making from

529
00:23:51.605 --> 00:23:52.725
stakeholder engagement?

530
00:23:53.265 --> 00:23:56.405
Are you ensuring that the accountable person gonna be a

531
00:23:56.405 --> 00:23:59.485
sponsor or executive is accountable for decisions?

532
00:23:59.485 --> 00:24:01.525
Are use the arbitrary of, of all decisions?

533
00:24:01.525 --> 00:24:05.565
You're not effectively using a governance group as a a,

534
00:24:05.925 --> 00:24:07.525
a proxy, as an accountable proxy.

535
00:24:08.805 --> 00:24:10.845
'cause governance groups shouldn't make decisions.

536
00:24:10.845 --> 00:24:12.645
They should contribute toward decisions

537
00:24:12.645 --> 00:24:13.805
made by accountable person.

538
00:24:14.025 --> 00:24:16.005
So once you start unpicking those sort

539
00:24:16.005 --> 00:24:19.205
of things in discussions, it becomes a very, uh,

540
00:24:19.275 --> 00:24:20.445
different discussion.

541
00:24:20.445 --> 00:24:22.725
And people go, no, I don't have any of that.

542
00:24:23.425 --> 00:24:24.965
And yes, I have these symptoms,

543
00:24:24.985 --> 00:24:26.325
and yes, I can understand

544
00:24:26.385 --> 00:24:28.805
how governance plays a key role in some of those things.

545
00:24:29.545 --> 00:24:32.485
But then it's, it's around they, okay, well,

546
00:24:32.485 --> 00:24:34.005
have you done it with other organizations?

547
00:24:34.105 --> 00:24:36.565
And then you kind of, you refer to a number of case studies,

548
00:24:36.705 --> 00:24:39.525
but, um, that's typically the sort of, uh,

549
00:24:39.545 --> 00:24:41.965
and then there's a diagnostic kit that I've got,

550
00:24:42.025 --> 00:24:44.365
but, um, that's kind of something

551
00:24:44.365 --> 00:24:45.605
that I roll out after brilliant.

552
00:24:45.715 --> 00:24:47.445
Initially through the discussions.

553
00:24:47.945 --> 00:24:49.565
So let me jump in just for a second, Adrian.

554
00:24:49.825 --> 00:24:52.045
So, um, Adrian, why don't you drop your LinkedIn

555
00:24:52.045 --> 00:24:53.525
profile into the chat.

556
00:24:54.225 --> 00:24:56.805
So, um, go follow Adrian.

557
00:24:57.485 --> 00:25:02.125
'cause periodically he drops in, uh, the, these little, um,

558
00:25:02.585 --> 00:25:04.565
one page governance primers.

559
00:25:04.805 --> 00:25:06.125
I, I dunno if you've seen them, Amanda,

560
00:25:06.345 --> 00:25:07.525
and I love them, right?

561
00:25:07.605 --> 00:25:10.325
I, I'm, I'm not the kind of person that really,

562
00:25:10.845 --> 00:25:12.565
I don't enjoy process, right?

563
00:25:12.585 --> 00:25:15.125
I'm not good at process. I don't enjoy it for an

564
00:25:15.325 --> 00:25:16.325
Engineer. That's ridiculous.

565
00:25:16.325 --> 00:25:16.485

566
00:25:17.625 --> 00:25:20.535
Say again, You're an engineer. That's ridiculous.

567
00:25:20.595 --> 00:25:22.055
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

568
00:25:22.055 --> 00:25:23.415
I trained as a physicist, Amanda.

569
00:25:23.515 --> 00:25:27.695
So we just like breaking things, right? Um, yeah.

570
00:25:28.255 --> 00:25:31.175
Pressing the buttons. And so, so, so one

571
00:25:31.175 --> 00:25:32.135
of the things I'd recommend everyone

572
00:25:32.135 --> 00:25:33.135
does is go follow Adrian.

573
00:25:33.675 --> 00:25:35.575
Um, and you, and occasionally he'll,

574
00:25:35.575 --> 00:25:36.775
he'll drop some of these things.

575
00:25:36.955 --> 00:25:39.015
And even as someone who doesn't like process,

576
00:25:39.855 --> 00:25:43.215
I love reading those because he, he takes something

577
00:25:43.215 --> 00:25:45.815
that's really complex and just takes one aspect of it

578
00:25:45.815 --> 00:25:48.055
and boils it right down to a one pager, which I love.

579
00:25:48.195 --> 00:25:50.575
Amanda is gonna jump in. Go on, go on. Jump,

580
00:25:50.605 --> 00:25:51.605
Jump. Yeah. Heap

581
00:25:51.605 --> 00:25:53.455
of stuff that just highlight

582
00:25:53.515 --> 00:25:54.775
for Adrian, just outlined.

583
00:25:55.055 --> 00:25:57.375
I mean, governance is leadership. Leadership is governance.

584
00:25:57.375 --> 00:26:00.255
They go hand in hand, which is a, I think is, but,

585
00:26:00.395 --> 00:26:02.335
but Adrian, you touched on something fantastic.

586
00:26:02.405 --> 00:26:04.935
There's, um, whenever you

587
00:26:04.935 --> 00:26:06.855
or I are called in, you tend to find

588
00:26:07.045 --> 00:26:09.855
that empowerment's out the window and,

589
00:26:09.995 --> 00:26:12.335
and the human response has gone into control.

590
00:26:13.195 --> 00:26:15.375
And generally that has come about because of fear.

591
00:26:16.235 --> 00:26:20.015
And I have a great analogy. Um, and it's fear.

592
00:26:20.385 --> 00:26:21.855
Going back to those KPIs,

593
00:26:21.855 --> 00:26:23.815
we were talking about people's expectations.

594
00:26:23.945 --> 00:26:26.375
Often senior leaders have jobs online

595
00:26:26.405 --> 00:26:28.855
because they haven't delivered budgets.

596
00:26:28.955 --> 00:26:30.255
And there's, and, and,

597
00:26:30.355 --> 00:26:34.335
and you start to see the human response, which are,

598
00:26:34.425 --> 00:26:38.055
which rolls out in actions into incorrect decision making

599
00:26:38.115 --> 00:26:40.015
and governance and coming back to fear.

600
00:26:40.475 --> 00:26:44.805
And the way I usually explain that is, you know, as,

601
00:26:44.945 --> 00:26:48.245
as leaders and PMO leaders as well,

602
00:26:48.465 --> 00:26:50.965
and leaders in business, you've, you know,

603
00:26:50.965 --> 00:26:53.685
you've trained your staff, you've employed the right people,

604
00:26:54.145 --> 00:26:55.805
you've put your energy

605
00:26:55.805 --> 00:26:58.365
and time, you've run your projects, you're down

606
00:26:58.365 --> 00:27:00.045
to the finish line, and you are like

607
00:27:00.045 --> 00:27:03.085
that race horse coming down to that final,

608
00:27:03.745 --> 00:27:04.925
you know, crossing.

609
00:27:04.945 --> 00:27:07.085
And I can see your face, 'cause you've heard this before.

610
00:27:07.745 --> 00:27:11.445
And what you find is all of a sudden that fear takeover

611
00:27:11.515 --> 00:27:15.005
that, are we going to get the first place winning ticket

612
00:27:15.005 --> 00:27:16.285
that we want in the market?

613
00:27:16.555 --> 00:27:18.485
Does this business gonna actually do it?

614
00:27:19.065 --> 00:27:21.285
Now you have two types of responses,

615
00:27:21.465 --> 00:27:24.645
and the one that will be the most damning is the control.

616
00:27:25.145 --> 00:27:26.405
All of a sudden, you start

617
00:27:26.405 --> 00:27:29.685
to see people pull the reins in on their metaphorical horse

618
00:27:30.145 --> 00:27:31.445
and pull it right in tight

619
00:27:31.505 --> 00:27:34.605
and start to control where, you know, the,

620
00:27:34.785 --> 00:27:35.965
the business or the horse.

621
00:27:35.965 --> 00:27:39.285
And this analogy is, you know, placing its feet and has to,

622
00:27:39.345 --> 00:27:41.005
and they're really digging in.

623
00:27:41.705 --> 00:27:44.245
And if you can imagine being in a, in a horse race,

624
00:27:44.305 --> 00:27:45.685
and you're down at the Melbourne Cup,

625
00:27:46.065 --> 00:27:47.845
that's not the horse that's gonna win.

626
00:27:48.265 --> 00:27:49.685
The, the horse that's gonna have

627
00:27:49.685 --> 00:27:52.965
that control mechanism wrapped around it so tight

628
00:27:53.595 --> 00:27:58.325
that it can no longer move without the rider telling it.

629
00:27:58.995 --> 00:28:02.165
It's actually a time as a leader that you've gotta step back

630
00:28:02.625 --> 00:28:05.725
and do the opposite of what your human instinct says,

631
00:28:06.055 --> 00:28:09.445
which is let the horse ride, let go of the reins,

632
00:28:09.605 --> 00:28:11.365
trusting in the people trust

633
00:28:11.365 --> 00:28:13.405
that you've instilled in them what's needed to be done,

634
00:28:13.705 --> 00:28:15.805
and that's the horse that will win the race.

635
00:28:15.985 --> 00:28:19.565
But that comes back to that fear and letting go of control.

636
00:28:20.465 --> 00:28:23.445
But that's the why, the reason I've explained

637
00:28:23.445 --> 00:28:27.005
that is it's the why behind the conversations

638
00:28:27.115 --> 00:28:29.245
that Adrian articulated so clearly.

639
00:28:29.865 --> 00:28:30.885
That's why we do it.

640
00:28:30.885 --> 00:28:33.765
That's why we like, like people, I ourselves coming

641
00:28:33.765 --> 00:28:34.925
to do the diagnostics.

642
00:28:34.995 --> 00:28:37.765
It's, it's to, it's to pop that pin brick

643
00:28:37.765 --> 00:28:40.855
that is controlling that business too much.

644
00:28:43.115 --> 00:28:45.395
Brilliant. So, uh, I wanna build on that,

645
00:28:45.815 --> 00:28:47.435
and I want to use Ash's comment.

646
00:28:48.335 --> 00:28:49.795
So Ashok is a superhero.

647
00:28:49.895 --> 00:28:51.795
He attends just about every webinar we've

648
00:28:52.585 --> 00:28:55.715
done in the last year and a half, um, which is great.

649
00:28:55.775 --> 00:28:58.075
So I love this. I love this, uh, comment.

650
00:28:58.175 --> 00:29:00.315
So I'm gonna read it out first so everybody sees it.

651
00:29:00.315 --> 00:29:03.155
So my view is key contributor to failure is poor

652
00:29:03.215 --> 00:29:06.795
and improper start to project, uh, poor business case,

653
00:29:06.905 --> 00:29:07.995
poor resource scheduling,

654
00:29:08.375 --> 00:29:10.315
not having the right skills in the right role.

655
00:29:11.045 --> 00:29:14.755
Right now, the reason I wanna start there is that, in

656
00:29:14.755 --> 00:29:17.395
that one comment, we've got

657
00:29:19.325 --> 00:29:21.595
front door management, project prioritization,

658
00:29:22.085 --> 00:29:23.315
we've got resource planning

659
00:29:24.135 --> 00:29:27.195
and uh, yeah, capacity planning and resource planning.

660
00:29:27.725 --> 00:29:29.835
We've got skills development.

661
00:29:30.175 --> 00:29:31.195
And now,

662
00:29:31.315 --> 00:29:34.635
and so the point I wanna pull out from this is that all of

663
00:29:34.635 --> 00:29:36.675
that involves decision making Exactly,

664
00:29:36.935 --> 00:29:39.915
But, But probably not in the same meeting, right?

665
00:29:41.785 --> 00:29:44.135
Governance, Right?

666
00:29:44.275 --> 00:29:48.025
So, so, so, so, so one of the, one of the things

667
00:29:48.025 --> 00:29:49.265
that I think some people wrestle

668
00:29:49.265 --> 00:29:52.745
with is they think governance is this, this monolithic thing

669
00:29:53.295 --> 00:29:54.785
that you do once a month.

670
00:29:55.245 --> 00:29:57.785
Yes. But it's not, it's, it's a Adrian, it's a collection

671
00:29:57.785 --> 00:29:59.945
of different bits.

672
00:29:59.945 --> 00:30:03.305
And, and in the, and in these different meeting forms.

673
00:30:03.855 --> 00:30:05.745
Calm down, Amanda. We'll come back to you in a minute.

674
00:30:05.795 --> 00:30:08.665
Write it down. I know. Write it down so you don't forget,

675
00:30:09.125 --> 00:30:11.545
but go quick.

676
00:30:11.545 --> 00:30:14.345
But, but so, so, so in the book you talk about this really,

677
00:30:14.345 --> 00:30:15.825
really, really clearly, Adrian.

678
00:30:15.845 --> 00:30:17.105
So just take a minute or two

679
00:30:17.565 --> 00:30:20.145
and talk us through what some

680
00:30:20.145 --> 00:30:24.145
of those different governance bodies are and, and forums are

681
00:30:25.505 --> 00:30:26.755
because, and they're not

682
00:30:26.755 --> 00:30:27.915
gonna be the same for everyone, right?

683
00:30:27.935 --> 00:30:29.475
But just give us a flavor of what some

684
00:30:29.475 --> 00:30:30.555
of those different governance bodies

685
00:30:30.735 --> 00:30:31.835
are and what they're for.

686
00:30:32.215 --> 00:30:33.315
And please bear in mind a lot

687
00:30:33.315 --> 00:30:36.515
of the questions in here have been about, uh,

688
00:30:36.515 --> 00:30:38.995
portfolio governance rather than project governance.

689
00:30:39.815 --> 00:30:42.955
So maybe spend a bit more time at that level rather than the

690
00:30:43.685 --> 00:30:44.735
Yeah, absolutely.

691
00:30:44.995 --> 00:30:49.695
And um, and I, I think you may have sort of, uh,

692
00:30:50.055 --> 00:30:53.015
cottoned onto the theme that, uh, of some of my, my sort

693
00:30:53.015 --> 00:30:56.735
of previous answers or responses is that, um,

694
00:30:56.985 --> 00:31:00.655
governance groups exist to help accountable people

695
00:31:00.835 --> 00:31:02.335
or persons make decisions.

696
00:31:03.395 --> 00:31:07.055
And so at the end of the day, going back to Ash's query,

697
00:31:07.355 --> 00:31:11.215
and that, that strikes at the heart of, uh, a lack

698
00:31:11.215 --> 00:31:13.335
of governance in mobilizing something.

699
00:31:14.235 --> 00:31:18.025
Um, but in doing so, whatever,

700
00:31:18.825 --> 00:31:20.985
whatever pursuit it is, it needs to be

701
00:31:21.655 --> 00:31:23.225
both effective and efficient.

702
00:31:23.365 --> 00:31:27.375
And efficiency then looks at, in the early stages

703
00:31:27.435 --> 00:31:29.535
of a project, and we'll come back to the portfolio a bit.

704
00:31:29.875 --> 00:31:30.975
You may only have a sponsor,

705
00:31:31.075 --> 00:31:33.415
you may not have a governance group around that sponsor,

706
00:31:34.435 --> 00:31:37.495
but somebody needs to own that initiative, needs

707
00:31:37.495 --> 00:31:39.975
to be accountable, needs to take it through

708
00:31:39.975 --> 00:31:41.815
that initial investment justification.

709
00:31:42.275 --> 00:31:44.855
You then may be build governance structures around

710
00:31:45.245 --> 00:31:48.335
that person being a, a, a governance group or committee.

711
00:31:49.105 --> 00:31:51.885
Um, but that's important that everything is viewed

712
00:31:51.885 --> 00:31:53.285
through the lens of effective,

713
00:31:53.695 --> 00:31:56.565
who's making the right decisions, as I've mentioned before.

714
00:31:56.625 --> 00:31:58.725
But efficiency, don't overcook it.

715
00:31:59.255 --> 00:32:02.005
Don't ever overcook it, don't get too many people involved.

716
00:32:02.075 --> 00:32:04.085
It's the right people. And there's a,

717
00:32:04.165 --> 00:32:05.285
a lot of guidance around that.

718
00:32:05.305 --> 00:32:07.885
But going back to your question, Stuart, within a,

719
00:32:07.885 --> 00:32:12.245
within a a a sort of an organization that has a number

720
00:32:12.245 --> 00:32:15.605
of different investments, obviously there's, that, the work

721
00:32:15.605 --> 00:32:18.085
that you do in terms of how an organization goes

722
00:32:18.085 --> 00:32:20.485
through a process to prioritize

723
00:32:20.545 --> 00:32:23.805
and then offer up, uh, recommendations around selection

724
00:32:24.065 --> 00:32:25.125
of those investments.

725
00:32:25.895 --> 00:32:29.755
Uh, and, and that, that a selection of investments is

726
00:32:30.315 --> 00:32:35.235
a complex process that needs to not only involve tools such

727
00:32:35.235 --> 00:32:39.245
as your tool and um, uh, other evidence,

728
00:32:39.705 --> 00:32:41.005
but it needs to involve humans.

729
00:32:41.555 --> 00:32:45.245
Because in any of these situations, there are trade-offs.

730
00:32:45.825 --> 00:32:47.725
If you're going to invest in A versus

731
00:32:48.045 --> 00:32:49.565
B, what does that mean?

732
00:32:50.125 --> 00:32:52.165
'cause it may, it may actually impact a market,

733
00:32:52.185 --> 00:32:53.245
it may impact a division,

734
00:32:53.865 --> 00:32:56.605
it may impact stakeholder perception.

735
00:32:57.345 --> 00:33:00.005
All of those things. There's a trade off in any

736
00:33:00.005 --> 00:33:02.085
of these decisions because you've got, um,

737
00:33:02.085 --> 00:33:03.645
you've only got limited resources,

738
00:33:03.645 --> 00:33:05.645
so you're not gonna invest in everything all at once.

739
00:33:06.225 --> 00:33:08.205
So that, that investment governance

740
00:33:08.225 --> 00:33:11.125
or portfolio level governance is absolutely critical.

741
00:33:11.905 --> 00:33:15.765
And this is where I think we're at in a, in a, an exciting

742
00:33:16.065 --> 00:33:20.965
but scary time going forward in that with the sort

743
00:33:20.965 --> 00:33:22.965
of access to greater analytics

744
00:33:23.665 --> 00:33:27.845
and scenario modeling, uh, using sort of different, uh,

745
00:33:27.845 --> 00:33:30.205
technologies and ai, that's very exciting.

746
00:33:30.665 --> 00:33:34.125
But at the same time, uh, the risk is

747
00:33:34.275 --> 00:33:35.685
that governance groups,

748
00:33:36.005 --> 00:33:38.085
particularly investment management committees,

749
00:33:38.085 --> 00:33:40.325
are over reliant on some of this information

750
00:33:40.325 --> 00:33:41.805
that's not necessarily valid.

751
00:33:42.505 --> 00:33:45.085
So, um, or, um, verified.

752
00:33:45.465 --> 00:33:49.005
So it's, it's, it's, it's important then that the humans

753
00:33:49.565 --> 00:33:50.725
involved in decision making,

754
00:33:51.495 --> 00:33:54.005
understand not only the decisions they're making,

755
00:33:54.865 --> 00:33:57.605
but the evidence upon which they're making those decisions.

756
00:33:58.065 --> 00:34:00.085
The defensibility of their decisions

757
00:34:00.545 --> 00:34:04.045
and the explainability of how they went about making

758
00:34:04.045 --> 00:34:07.005
that decision is gonna be key themes going forward, I think.

759
00:34:07.305 --> 00:34:11.005
And that's gonna be paramount of that, uh, portfolio level

760
00:34:11.465 --> 00:34:14.805
to understand and defend how you made investment

761
00:34:15.065 --> 00:34:18.565
to decisions and what level you relied upon, um,

762
00:34:18.735 --> 00:34:21.965
technology versus your own human intellect

763
00:34:22.465 --> 00:34:24.565
and behaviors and, uh,

764
00:34:25.475 --> 00:34:26.475
Judgment. And, and I, I've

765
00:34:26.475 --> 00:34:28.275
got a couple of, I've, I've got an a word

766
00:34:28.275 --> 00:34:31.475
and a C word that I'm gonna introduce or not introduce,

767
00:34:31.495 --> 00:34:32.515
but focus on.

768
00:34:32.615 --> 00:34:34.555
Uh, so, so the first, the first one is one

769
00:34:34.555 --> 00:34:36.595
that you've thrown out a few times already is

770
00:34:36.595 --> 00:34:38.355
accountability, right?

771
00:34:38.535 --> 00:34:41.355
So, so the accountability, so what you talk about there,

772
00:34:41.355 --> 00:34:44.155
about the, the, the, the subjective nat nature

773
00:34:44.375 --> 00:34:45.755
of the portfolio governance,

774
00:34:45.755 --> 00:34:47.755
but the, the prioritization in particular is,

775
00:34:47.975 --> 00:34:50.075
is quite subjective, right?

776
00:34:50.075 --> 00:34:52.475
Which is why tools like ours work really well,

777
00:34:52.575 --> 00:34:57.285
but we'll, we'll not go down that path too far tonight, but,

778
00:34:57.425 --> 00:35:00.445
but the, but it is quite subjective

779
00:35:01.145 --> 00:35:02.925
and it is subject to people

780
00:35:04.965 --> 00:35:08.405
exaggerating benefits perhaps, and,

781
00:35:09.945 --> 00:35:13.045
and maybe even minimizing risks

782
00:35:13.185 --> 00:35:14.845
and things like this in the, in the process.

783
00:35:15.385 --> 00:35:17.125
And so, so part

784
00:35:17.125 --> 00:35:19.885
of a really good governor's process really hinges

785
00:35:19.885 --> 00:35:21.285
around this accountability word.

786
00:35:21.665 --> 00:35:24.205
So the accountability starts here, right?

787
00:35:24.875 --> 00:35:26.895
It starts with committing to some business goals.

788
00:35:27.515 --> 00:35:29.095
And when you're building the business case,

789
00:35:29.095 --> 00:35:33.515
when you're making that case for a project, right, knowing

790
00:35:33.705 --> 00:35:37.065
that you are gonna be held accountable for delivering that,

791
00:35:38.475 --> 00:35:41.405
because that changes the behavior if you are accountable

792
00:35:42.065 --> 00:35:43.565
and if you know you're accountable,

793
00:35:43.585 --> 00:35:48.085
and if the process is transparent, visible, and, and, and,

794
00:35:48.145 --> 00:35:50.325
and if you know you're gonna actually drive

795
00:35:50.385 --> 00:35:53.045
to the benefit at the end and measure it, or the outcome

796
00:35:53.045 --> 00:35:55.565
or whatever you wanna call it at the end, measure it

797
00:35:55.745 --> 00:35:57.525
and say, did we actually deliver it?

798
00:35:57.825 --> 00:35:58.615
One comment. So the

799
00:35:58.615 --> 00:35:59.335
accountability comment

800
00:35:59.475 --> 00:36:00.655
was really important. Comment, yeah, go

801
00:36:00.655 --> 00:36:01.655
Ahead. Accountability is

802
00:36:01.655 --> 00:36:02.615
absolutely important,

803
00:36:02.615 --> 00:36:04.495
and I won't hold the, the session,

804
00:36:04.635 --> 00:36:08.655
but, um, I, I put up a lot of posters as, as Stuart said,

805
00:36:08.655 --> 00:36:09.935
talking about accountability.

806
00:36:10.155 --> 00:36:13.655
And I put up one, uh, just a few days ago, uh,

807
00:36:14.055 --> 00:36:16.215
contrasting accountability versus responsibility.

808
00:36:16.365 --> 00:36:18.335
I've got some really interesting comments back.

809
00:36:18.795 --> 00:36:19.935
And obviously there's only

810
00:36:19.935 --> 00:36:21.695
so much you can cover in a LinkedIn post.

811
00:36:21.845 --> 00:36:23.135
It's not the book. Um,

812
00:36:23.755 --> 00:36:26.735
but accountability needs to be vested

813
00:36:26.765 --> 00:36:30.095
with not only a person, but the right person.

814
00:36:30.915 --> 00:36:33.735
And the right person in projects is the person

815
00:36:33.845 --> 00:36:36.975
that is then accountable for the business outcomes

816
00:36:37.005 --> 00:36:38.615
that are enabled by that project.

817
00:36:38.875 --> 00:36:40.175
That's the optimal arrangement.

818
00:36:40.175 --> 00:36:41.495
And there can be some trade offs,

819
00:36:42.115 --> 00:36:44.655
but that person has the most skin in the game

820
00:36:45.355 --> 00:36:47.615
to ensure there's line of sight through

821
00:36:47.615 --> 00:36:49.695
to success in delivering the project,

822
00:36:49.865 --> 00:36:52.415
delivering the capabilities, realizing the outcomes,

823
00:36:52.875 --> 00:36:56.455
and that because they are then the owner of the capabilities

824
00:36:57.395 --> 00:36:58.535
and the business outcomes

825
00:36:58.555 --> 00:37:00.455
and the risks, the associated risks

826
00:37:00.645 --> 00:37:02.535
that are delivered at the end of that project.

827
00:37:02.875 --> 00:37:05.015
So that's really important. But then somebody actually

828
00:37:05.215 --> 00:37:06.695
challenged me on that, which I thought was a

829
00:37:06.695 --> 00:37:07.775
really, really good challenge.

830
00:37:08.635 --> 00:37:13.055
Um, so how do you actually embed that into a person's,

831
00:37:13.635 --> 00:37:16.295
um, employment contract or position description?

832
00:37:17.515 --> 00:37:20.575
But my response to that was, okay, if they're accountable

833
00:37:20.575 --> 00:37:22.295
for the business outcomes being enabled,

834
00:37:22.925 --> 00:37:24.655
they are already on the hook

835
00:37:24.655 --> 00:37:26.215
through their employment contract

836
00:37:26.215 --> 00:37:29.295
or PD for the things that are important, the things

837
00:37:29.375 --> 00:37:30.935
that we said earlier, the outcomes.

838
00:37:31.475 --> 00:37:34.935
So you don't need to suddenly change employment contracts if

839
00:37:34.935 --> 00:37:38.135
you have the right person as the accountable person.

840
00:37:38.315 --> 00:37:39.615
And I think that's critical, Stuart.

841
00:37:40.525 --> 00:37:42.295
Well, and, and I'll, I'll, I'll see that

842
00:37:42.295 --> 00:37:43.735
and raise it a little bit, which, and,

843
00:37:43.735 --> 00:37:46.175
and say that there's, there's, in most organizations,

844
00:37:46.175 --> 00:37:50.015
there's a little bit of a gap between strategy formulation

845
00:37:50.035 --> 00:37:51.615
and the execution of that strategy.

846
00:37:52.415 --> 00:37:56.195
And a little, yeah, I know I'm a brit, I understate things.

847
00:37:56.695 --> 00:37:58.955
Are we, are we, oh, no, I'm not going down that path.

848
00:37:58.995 --> 00:38:00.715
I want, I want to Amen. Anyway.

849
00:38:01.135 --> 00:38:02.315
Um, and,

850
00:38:02.335 --> 00:38:06.115
and so the, um, you know, one

851
00:38:06.115 --> 00:38:08.635
of the things here tho those executives goals

852
00:38:08.825 --> 00:38:12.065
that their compensation is often tied to Yeah.

853
00:38:12.165 --> 00:38:15.065
Are usually created out of sequence.

854
00:38:15.685 --> 00:38:17.305
So they will sit in an ivory,

855
00:38:17.305 --> 00:38:18.785
someone will sit in an ivory tower

856
00:38:18.805 --> 00:38:19.945
and create a bunch of goals

857
00:38:20.045 --> 00:38:21.945
and say, this is what we're doing this year.

858
00:38:22.645 --> 00:38:25.285
And then they'll go and say, what, what are we, what are,

859
00:38:25.285 --> 00:38:27.245
what are the projects we're gonna do to get there

860
00:38:27.955 --> 00:38:28.955
Even worse? Can I add

861
00:38:28.955 --> 00:38:31.125
to that? Yeah. How many businesses do we know

862
00:38:31.125 --> 00:38:34.405
that put head of strategy as the CFO or the head of finance,

863
00:38:35.105 --> 00:38:39.005
and they all strategy goals are, are set

864
00:38:39.505 --> 00:38:42.285
by the fi finance guys.

865
00:38:43.185 --> 00:38:44.485
And then yeah,

866
00:38:44.635 --> 00:38:48.225
well roll on gap, just saying,

867
00:38:48.815 --> 00:38:50.945
Yeah, that, that, that becomes a chasm at that point.

868
00:38:52.965 --> 00:38:55.025
But, but, but what you, what you get is, right.

869
00:38:55.025 --> 00:38:57.185
So what you get from that is you get,

870
00:38:57.885 --> 00:38:59.345
you get goals being set,

871
00:38:59.845 --> 00:39:02.025
and then someone will say, well, to get to

872
00:39:02.025 --> 00:39:03.265
that goal, I need this project.

873
00:39:04.365 --> 00:39:06.865
And so they'll tie somebody's bonus to that project Yeah.

874
00:39:07.005 --> 00:39:09.545
Before they've gone through the selection process as whether

875
00:39:09.545 --> 00:39:10.905
or not they're ever gonna do that project.

876
00:39:12.085 --> 00:39:13.545
And, and, and then the whole thing,

877
00:39:13.965 --> 00:39:15.345
the whole cast of cards collapses.

878
00:39:15.645 --> 00:39:18.065
And then as Adrian just articulated, then they go out

879
00:39:18.065 --> 00:39:20.465
and just choose a completely different sponsor. Yeah.

880
00:39:20.605 --> 00:39:21.705
Mm. Yeah.

881
00:39:21.705 --> 00:39:23.545
And then they're not at all aligned just

882
00:39:23.545 --> 00:39:24.625
for s***s in Googles

883
00:39:24.745 --> 00:39:28.345
'cause it's fun, let's just not make decisions.

884
00:39:29.865 --> 00:39:31.205
And, and that person, of course,

885
00:39:31.265 --> 00:39:33.365
is really bought into the original goal. Yeah.

886
00:39:34.105 --> 00:39:36.005
It was set up by finance. Yeah.

887
00:39:37.505 --> 00:39:40.325
Oh, look, we're so facetious. It's brilliant.

888
00:39:43.185 --> 00:39:48.125
So, so, so, so you, so, so, so you, so you set up,

889
00:39:49.385 --> 00:39:51.525
so the, the original point for this a Adrian,

890
00:39:51.525 --> 00:39:52.805
is we were talking about different bodies.

891
00:39:52.865 --> 00:39:54.965
So we've talked a little bit about, you know, so there's,

892
00:39:54.965 --> 00:39:59.045
there's, there's a governance body that meets periodically,

893
00:39:59.075 --> 00:40:01.245
monthly, quarterly, whatever the right cadence is

894
00:40:01.785 --> 00:40:04.805
to review incoming projects and select stuff.

895
00:40:05.595 --> 00:40:07.165
What are, what else might you have in there?

896
00:40:07.165 --> 00:40:11.325
What are the kinds of governance bodies or processes

897
00:40:11.345 --> 00:40:14.645
or forums might be useful to people?

898
00:40:14.745 --> 00:40:16.925
Ah, so, so, so certainly, you know,

899
00:40:17.495 --> 00:40:19.845
continuing the theme at that level, that

900
00:40:19.845 --> 00:40:22.245
that group not only looks at what's coming in the front

901
00:40:22.245 --> 00:40:23.485
door, it also looks at

902
00:40:23.485 --> 00:40:26.285
what should be going out the back door in terms

903
00:40:26.405 --> 00:40:27.845
of optimizing your portfolio.

904
00:40:28.185 --> 00:40:31.445
So it has a, a, uh, an investment selection

905
00:40:31.465 --> 00:40:33.085
and then investment optimization.

906
00:40:33.585 --> 00:40:37.275
But that group then also needs to have oversight of all

907
00:40:37.275 --> 00:40:38.515
of the governance arrangements

908
00:40:38.515 --> 00:40:41.115
that exist across the organization to ensure

909
00:40:41.115 --> 00:40:43.955
that they're fit for purpose and what might exist there.

910
00:40:43.955 --> 00:40:45.235
Then. And then it's interesting.

911
00:40:45.235 --> 00:40:46.555
So I'm working with a,

912
00:40:46.755 --> 00:40:49.795
a large government owned corporation here at the moment.

913
00:40:50.625 --> 00:40:55.555
Massive, massive amounts of investment in digital, um,

914
00:40:56.375 --> 00:41:00.835
uh, workforce infrastructure, all different types

915
00:41:00.835 --> 00:41:03.035
of investments, both CapEx and opex.

916
00:41:03.975 --> 00:41:05.795
And so really, really complex.

917
00:41:06.455 --> 00:41:09.275
And so they've got multi, so one of the things

918
00:41:09.305 --> 00:41:13.075
that we spent a lot of time on was ensuring that, um,

919
00:41:13.605 --> 00:41:16.275
there were governance arrangements that were efficient

920
00:41:16.375 --> 00:41:18.075
as well as, uh, effective.

921
00:41:18.775 --> 00:41:23.035
So we actually set up some sub portfolio steering committees

922
00:41:23.695 --> 00:41:25.515
as well as program boards.

923
00:41:26.455 --> 00:41:29.755
And the program boards were there to look at, um,

924
00:41:29.855 --> 00:41:31.755
either inve, uh, vision led

925
00:41:31.755 --> 00:41:35.395
or business led programs, true benefits driven programs,

926
00:41:35.575 --> 00:41:39.435
or, uh, buckets of, uh, common projects that, uh,

927
00:41:39.435 --> 00:41:40.755
deliver some common outcomes.

928
00:41:41.935 --> 00:41:45.755
Um, so they were very important. And, uh, we optimized that.

929
00:41:45.755 --> 00:41:48.195
We didn't invest a lot in project level governance.

930
00:41:48.215 --> 00:41:50.195
We tried to delegate that down to the teams

931
00:41:50.295 --> 00:41:52.155
and invest in program level governance.

932
00:41:52.695 --> 00:41:54.755
But I, I, I talk about these sub-portfolios,

933
00:41:54.755 --> 00:41:58.715
because often what can happen is if you have a, a,

934
00:41:58.895 --> 00:42:01.315
an organization that has lots of investments,

935
00:42:02.255 --> 00:42:05.115
you can potentially clog your investment committee,

936
00:42:05.465 --> 00:42:07.835
your strategic sort of level governance group

937
00:42:08.265 --> 00:42:11.995
that does the investment selection, investment optimization,

938
00:42:12.855 --> 00:42:17.315
you actually burden them with, um, clearing decisions

939
00:42:17.315 --> 00:42:18.435
that weren't addressed

940
00:42:18.435 --> 00:42:20.635
because they didn't have the appropriate authority lower

941
00:42:20.635 --> 00:42:21.915
down in that hierarchy.

942
00:42:22.315 --> 00:42:23.575
Mm-Hmm. And so instead

943
00:42:23.575 --> 00:42:25.335
of having the program governance groups

944
00:42:26.015 --> 00:42:28.055
escalate the portfolio committee,

945
00:42:28.115 --> 00:42:30.015
we set up sub-portfolio committees,

946
00:42:30.015 --> 00:42:32.175
and sometimes they're called delivery group delivery

947
00:42:32.175 --> 00:42:34.615
governance groups as a clearinghouse.

948
00:42:35.035 --> 00:42:36.815
And that's worked fantastically well.

949
00:42:36.915 --> 00:42:39.295
So when we talk about that hierarchy, Stuart,

950
00:42:39.775 --> 00:42:43.455
I think each time I, I look at these things, it's not a case

951
00:42:43.475 --> 00:42:45.255
of here's the prescriptive view.

952
00:42:45.255 --> 00:42:46.735
You have project governance bodies,

953
00:42:46.895 --> 00:42:49.455
program governance bodies, portfolio level.

954
00:42:49.795 --> 00:42:52.615
You need to tailor that to the organizational environment.

955
00:42:52.615 --> 00:42:53.775
And I encourage everybody

956
00:42:53.795 --> 00:42:56.925
to ask the question, is it effective?

957
00:42:57.185 --> 00:42:59.885
Is it efficient? If it's not efficient, then you need

958
00:42:59.885 --> 00:43:01.845
to question the existence of some of these bodies,

959
00:43:01.845 --> 00:43:05.605
because too many times we over bureaucratize this

960
00:43:05.985 --> 00:43:08.805
and the term minimal viable bureaucracy

961
00:43:08.805 --> 00:43:11.645
or minimal viable governance needs to be part of what we,

962
00:43:12.345 --> 00:43:15.445
we we test governance arrangements against.

963
00:43:16.445 --> 00:43:18.485
Goodness. Elon Musk just joined the call. Oh, no, no, no.

964
00:43:21.945 --> 00:43:25.085
Oh, no, no. Please don't. Let's not go down there.

965
00:43:25.145 --> 00:43:26.205
No, sorry. Um,

966
00:43:26.585 --> 00:43:28.645
but they, uh, we have an international audience,

967
00:43:28.645 --> 00:43:29.765
so we're not going down that one.

968
00:43:30.185 --> 00:43:34.885
Um, so, so the, so, so, um, yes. That's fantastic.

969
00:43:34.985 --> 00:43:37.205
So, so the, and, and I'm gonna just bring it back to

970
00:43:37.205 --> 00:43:39.205
what you said earlier, Adrian, about having, you know,

971
00:43:39.205 --> 00:43:40.925
it's about making the right decision at the right time,

972
00:43:40.945 --> 00:43:42.765
at the right information with the right people in the room,

973
00:43:43.745 --> 00:43:47.805
and so, um, at, at the different levels in the organization.

974
00:43:48.425 --> 00:43:51.085
And so it's whatever the right processes

975
00:43:51.105 --> 00:43:54.275
and decision making bodies are to allow you to do that.

976
00:43:54.495 --> 00:43:57.325
And, and, and it can change over time.

977
00:43:57.385 --> 00:44:00.325
As maturity changes, as maturity and delivery changes

978
00:44:00.385 --> 00:44:03.085
and maturity and governance changes, as the maturity

979
00:44:03.085 --> 00:44:06.325
of your leadership team changes, you need to evolve

980
00:44:06.345 --> 00:44:07.365
and develop those.

981
00:44:07.625 --> 00:44:09.845
So we are, that brings us onto the

982
00:44:09.845 --> 00:44:11.245
leadership team themselves.

983
00:44:11.385 --> 00:44:14.505
And your stakeholders, Amanda,

984
00:44:14.505 --> 00:44:15.865
they never cause any problems, do they?

985
00:44:16.525 --> 00:44:18.505
No, no. They're beautiful people.

986
00:44:19.245 --> 00:44:21.625
Um, they do it, you know, expected,

987
00:44:22.085 --> 00:44:25.665
um, pe pe people.

988
00:44:25.735 --> 00:44:28.665
What would, what would, why can't we just work with robots?

989
00:44:28.725 --> 00:44:33.045
And, and then it'll all be pre-planned and programmed,

990
00:44:33.045 --> 00:44:35.925
and we could do this perfect project rollout

991
00:44:35.925 --> 00:44:38.085
that would be effectively responsive

992
00:44:38.085 --> 00:44:39.925
to all these activities we put in.

993
00:44:39.985 --> 00:44:43.325
And then, then, then, and instead we want to have fun

994
00:44:43.325 --> 00:44:46.525
and add people to the mix, those uncontrollable humans that,

995
00:44:46.705 --> 00:44:51.085
uh, have things like, uh, politic and life

996
00:44:51.585 --> 00:44:54.405
and influences outside of life.

997
00:44:54.905 --> 00:44:56.285
And then we have to learn to manage

998
00:44:56.475 --> 00:44:58.525
with those biases and agendas.

999
00:44:58.795 --> 00:45:00.045
Bias. Yes. Mm-Hmm.

1000
00:45:00.745 --> 00:45:02.885
So, so, so Gossip.

1001
00:45:02.905 --> 00:45:06.165
So, so Amanda, when you go somewhere that's broken

1002
00:45:08.065 --> 00:45:09.065
Yes. Right?

1003
00:45:09.065 --> 00:45:11.085
I've got a story for you.

1004
00:45:11.545 --> 00:45:12.605
Oh, good. Right.

1005
00:45:12.605 --> 00:45:14.965
So when you go into somewhere that's broken, how do you

1006
00:45:15.985 --> 00:45:20.765
get the leadership team to start taking governance?

1007
00:45:20.765 --> 00:45:22.925
Seriously, feel free to tell a story first, by the way.

1008
00:45:23.395 --> 00:45:25.685
Because like, by the, if it's all broken,

1009
00:45:25.905 --> 00:45:27.525
the leadership team's the problem.

1010
00:45:28.355 --> 00:45:30.965
Like actually a couple of stories.

1011
00:45:31.395 --> 00:45:33.805
I've just gone in to do a, a, an assessment

1012
00:45:33.865 --> 00:45:35.605
of another business recently.

1013
00:45:36.145 --> 00:45:38.525
And my first stop off, actually, I should know,

1014
00:45:38.645 --> 00:45:39.725
I won't put a question out

1015
00:45:39.925 --> 00:45:42.925
'cause it, so I turned up at the, at the property, I was,

1016
00:45:43.185 --> 00:45:45.885
you know, the, at the establishment there, the building.

1017
00:45:46.385 --> 00:45:48.925
And um, I was asked, you know, I was asked

1018
00:45:48.925 --> 00:45:50.045
to turn up at nine

1019
00:45:50.045 --> 00:45:52.805
because the poor, you won't onboard until 9 0 5

1020
00:45:52.865 --> 00:45:55.205
by the time the IT guy gets there with your laptop.

1021
00:45:55.265 --> 00:45:58.565
So I turned up at eight and had a look about,

1022
00:45:58.565 --> 00:46:00.525
and there's this awesome cafe next door.

1023
00:46:01.305 --> 00:46:02.605
And so I thought, I'll go

1024
00:46:02.605 --> 00:46:04.605
and have a coffee with him and sit down now.

1025
00:46:04.605 --> 00:46:06.005
It told me while I was having my coffee,

1026
00:46:06.005 --> 00:46:07.245
he'd been there 25 years.

1027
00:46:08.125 --> 00:46:11.925
I was like, great. Uh, has that business been there 25?

1028
00:46:11.945 --> 00:46:13.245
He goes, yeah, about the same time

1029
00:46:13.245 --> 00:46:14.525
knowing them for the whole, I said, great.

1030
00:46:14.645 --> 00:46:16.245
I said, 'cause I'm about to go and have a chat to

1031
00:46:16.245 --> 00:46:17.765
that leadership team and everybody in there,

1032
00:46:17.765 --> 00:46:19.925
and they're about to tell me what they think

1033
00:46:20.795 --> 00:46:22.045
they want me to know.

1034
00:46:22.945 --> 00:46:24.525
So why don't you come and sit down with me.

1035
00:46:24.545 --> 00:46:26.885
Now I got a download from the cafe owner of

1036
00:46:27.405 --> 00:46:29.245
absolutely everything that had happened

1037
00:46:29.355 --> 00:46:31.245
because everybody in that business went

1038
00:46:31.245 --> 00:46:33.085
to the cafe and whinged.

1039
00:46:34.345 --> 00:46:36.805
So before I walked in, I knew who did what, who was with

1040
00:46:36.805 --> 00:46:38.325
who, who had affairs, was someone else.

1041
00:46:38.345 --> 00:46:41.085
And was who got annoyed at this end.

1042
00:46:41.145 --> 00:46:45.685
Do you you got, you got this amazing download of insight.

1043
00:46:46.465 --> 00:46:49.765
So yeah, when you walk in to do project reviews often,

1044
00:46:50.865 --> 00:46:54.645
you know, if, if things have gone awry, um,

1045
00:46:55.225 --> 00:46:58.165
and they are really, really not doing well,

1046
00:46:58.885 --> 00:47:00.005
leadership's broken.

1047
00:47:01.245 --> 00:47:03.585
Uh, yeah. That's, that's your first problem.

1048
00:47:03.885 --> 00:47:05.985
So how do you have that conversation with them? Right?

1049
00:47:06.025 --> 00:47:08.265
I mean, you walk in, you've got your beautiful suit,

1050
00:47:08.445 --> 00:47:09.905
you got your $200 haircut,

1051
00:47:10.745 --> 00:47:11.905
I know what you spend on your haircut.

1052
00:47:12.525 --> 00:47:13.905
Yes. No, you know, I don't do that.

1053
00:47:15.385 --> 00:47:18.305
Connor's in there with the scissors. Yeah, right.

1054
00:47:20.005 --> 00:47:22.945
But, but so, but how do you start that conversation?

1055
00:47:23.085 --> 00:47:26.625
And, and if you are a, if you're a PMO leader in, so

1056
00:47:26.625 --> 00:47:28.985
as a consultant coming from outside, you have a certain,

1057
00:47:29.005 --> 00:47:31.725
certain you have a certain kudos, right?

1058
00:47:32.705 --> 00:47:33.845
But if you, if you're not that

1059
00:47:33.845 --> 00:47:35.685
person, how do you get it started?

1060
00:47:36.065 --> 00:47:37.325
How do you start that conversation?

1061
00:47:38.055 --> 00:47:40.395
It comes just walk in and say, you are the problem mate.

1062
00:47:40.985 --> 00:47:42.915
Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah.

1063
00:47:42.915 --> 00:47:45.235
It is easier when you've been asked, when it is gotten

1064
00:47:45.235 --> 00:47:48.555
to a point that you are asked to come in and review

1065
00:47:48.555 --> 00:47:49.955
because you've got someone who's going,

1066
00:47:49.955 --> 00:47:51.115
look, I, I just don't know.

1067
00:47:51.135 --> 00:47:54.035
So you've got that chain of communi a line of communication.

1068
00:47:54.685 --> 00:47:57.395
There is always someone in the business

1069
00:47:57.695 --> 00:48:02.395
and it, it that is absolutely passionate about

1070
00:48:02.545 --> 00:48:04.275
that business being successful.

1071
00:48:04.275 --> 00:48:06.115
Generally the owners or,

1072
00:48:06.615 --> 00:48:10.595
or people who are, you know, have got that skin in the game,

1073
00:48:10.705 --> 00:48:13.515
including financials to make sure that this is effective.

1074
00:48:13.515 --> 00:48:16.915
There is always someone in there who will listen.

1075
00:48:17.535 --> 00:48:21.075
Um, it is, do you have the intestinal fortitude?

1076
00:48:21.315 --> 00:48:23.035
'cause that's what, what it takes to get over

1077
00:48:23.185 --> 00:48:26.675
that personal fear of walking in the door.

1078
00:48:27.135 --> 00:48:29.355
And that again, comes down to self-leadership.

1079
00:48:30.045 --> 00:48:32.675
There will be someone to listen. There will be

1080
00:48:33.245 --> 00:48:34.245
Articulate. Well, I like that

1081
00:48:34.245 --> 00:48:36.595
in intestinal fortitude, that that's like,

1082
00:48:37.215 --> 00:48:39.635
um, yeah, exactly.

1083
00:48:39.895 --> 00:48:41.915
You evacuate yourself on the way in.

1084
00:48:42.345 --> 00:48:44.515
Yeah. So, and, and I've spoken to a lot of people

1085
00:48:44.575 --> 00:48:46.155
who just, just are too fearful.

1086
00:48:46.975 --> 00:48:48.635
Um, they feel that there'll be backlash

1087
00:48:48.635 --> 00:48:50.275
that they can actually speak to someone.

1088
00:48:51.015 --> 00:48:53.435
Um, and that's okay. That's all right.

1089
00:48:53.935 --> 00:48:55.955
And maybe that they in ask someone else

1090
00:48:56.055 --> 00:48:58.515
to help them. But ultimately,

1091
00:48:59.135 --> 00:49:00.135
Oh man. I'll

1092
00:49:00.135 --> 00:49:01.195
give you some to read our,

1093
00:49:01.585 --> 00:49:02.915
I'll give you a second to read that one.

1094
00:49:02.985 --> 00:49:05.515
Just you I can answer that after. Yeah, go for it. Uh,

1095
00:49:05.545 --> 00:49:06.545
Yeah. I actually got

1096
00:49:06.545 --> 00:49:07.755
some brilliant feedback.

1097
00:49:08.515 --> 00:49:09.955
Apparently, apparently.

1098
00:49:09.955 --> 00:49:12.235
And I, and I only got told this when I was in IBM

1099
00:49:12.235 --> 00:49:15.995
and I had a, a, an awesome, uh, PMO manager come up to me,

1100
00:49:16.245 --> 00:49:18.715
Simon, who brockwell, he's since retired

1101
00:49:18.775 --> 00:49:20.435
and meant he, he was good.

1102
00:49:21.215 --> 00:49:23.195
Um, and I came into recover a program

1103
00:49:24.055 --> 00:49:26.355
and we walked into a client meeting in,

1104
00:49:26.415 --> 00:49:29.515
and I, I tell you not these, the, the, the, the

1105
00:49:30.225 --> 00:49:33.315
executive at the time were yelling at each other literally

1106
00:49:33.495 --> 00:49:34.555
on this particular program.

1107
00:49:35.495 --> 00:49:37.875
And I had to the calm it all down

1108
00:49:38.535 --> 00:49:41.235
and the, as we walked out, Simon turned to me

1109
00:49:41.235 --> 00:49:44.915
and said, you are brilliant at telling bad news.

1110
00:49:46.345 --> 00:49:50.565
So I don't know how I couch it. I don't know what it is.

1111
00:49:51.695 --> 00:49:54.525
Maybe the fact that I see the life, I see life as kind

1112
00:49:54.525 --> 00:49:57.925
of funny, but however I manage to articulate the problem,

1113
00:49:58.625 --> 00:50:00.805
um, that's the only reason I haven't been fired.

1114
00:50:01.045 --> 00:50:02.445
'cause I'm pretty, I'm pretty brutal.

1115
00:50:03.065 --> 00:50:04.925
So, so, so I have a, it's always with a smile.

1116
00:50:05.755 --> 00:50:08.365
Yeah. That's it. So, so,

1117
00:50:08.365 --> 00:50:09.805
so I have, I, I have a theory, right?

1118
00:50:09.805 --> 00:50:13.555
Which is, first of all, don't be frightened. No.

1119
00:50:13.555 --> 00:50:15.515
Because, because people can tell.

1120
00:50:16.295 --> 00:50:18.035
And the second thing is always do it

1121
00:50:18.035 --> 00:50:19.555
with a smile. Right? And

1122
00:50:19.555 --> 00:50:20.555
Maybe that's it. You're probably

1123
00:50:20.555 --> 00:50:21.875
right, Stuart. I have no fear.

1124
00:50:22.275 --> 00:50:25.475
I actually, because I mean, realistically I would Christ,

1125
00:50:26.015 --> 00:50:29.765
if you are in a completely crazy work environment

1126
00:50:29.835 --> 00:50:31.245
with a bad project

1127
00:50:31.785 --> 00:50:33.605
and things, really,

1128
00:50:33.825 --> 00:50:35.885
you think getting fired is the worst outcome

1129
00:50:36.465 --> 00:50:38.005
if they're not gonna listen to you

1130
00:50:38.505 --> 00:50:39.845
and they're not gonna change,

1131
00:50:40.305 --> 00:50:41.965
is getting in the work every day

1132
00:50:42.025 --> 00:50:46.045
and living in a war zone, really worse than getting fired.

1133
00:50:46.505 --> 00:50:49.485
So I, I guess I, yeah, I have no fear

1134
00:50:49.825 --> 00:50:52.365
and I, I find the world really funny.

1135
00:50:52.665 --> 00:50:54.765
So I will tend to find the,

1136
00:50:54.945 --> 00:50:57.125
But going back to your, your question, Stuart,

1137
00:50:57.185 --> 00:50:59.165
and I think it's, you know, uh, Amanda

1138
00:50:59.185 --> 00:51:01.205
and I are often in a privileged position in

1139
00:51:01.205 --> 00:51:04.165
that we get the opportunity to come in and tell the truth.

1140
00:51:04.665 --> 00:51:08.165
Um, now in, in an objective manner, um,

1141
00:51:08.425 --> 00:51:09.805
and what's best for the business.

1142
00:51:10.705 --> 00:51:12.885
But as you've said, you know, if you're in a PMO

1143
00:51:12.945 --> 00:51:16.815
and you see some of these things going horribly wrong, it's

1144
00:51:16.815 --> 00:51:20.255
as, it's as Amanda said, you find somebody to hook

1145
00:51:20.765 --> 00:51:23.695
into in the organization somebody

1146
00:51:23.695 --> 00:51:25.815
who understands some of these things.

1147
00:51:26.175 --> 00:51:29.815
Somebody who's passionate about maybe looking to improve

1148
00:51:30.595 --> 00:51:34.295
or enhance or completely change the way things are done.

1149
00:51:35.195 --> 00:51:37.415
And, and that can be quite powerful, you know,

1150
00:51:37.435 --> 00:51:39.415
and it, sometimes, I, I, I'm working

1151
00:51:39.415 --> 00:51:43.335
with an organization at the moment, uh, where there's, uh,

1152
00:51:43.435 --> 00:51:47.255
it, it's, it's a significant organization where there's,

1153
00:51:47.275 --> 00:51:51.295
the organization's effectively split into two for delivery

1154
00:51:51.595 --> 00:51:54.855
of, um, well, it's 1600 kilometers worth of,

1155
00:51:55.075 --> 00:51:56.695
uh, freight rail.

1156
00:51:58.195 --> 00:52:01.655
And one half is approaching things in one

1157
00:52:01.655 --> 00:52:02.775
way and one half the other.

1158
00:52:03.435 --> 00:52:06.655
And from an executive level, they're wanting consistency.

1159
00:52:07.485 --> 00:52:09.785
And some of the things I've said was, look, you know, if,

1160
00:52:09.805 --> 00:52:12.825
if we haven't got a coalition of people wanting

1161
00:52:12.845 --> 00:52:16.025
to support this, let's actually make one

1162
00:52:16.025 --> 00:52:17.145
of these an exemplar.

1163
00:52:17.715 --> 00:52:20.265
Let's actually look to introduce new ways of working,

1164
00:52:20.365 --> 00:52:21.505
new ways of doing things.

1165
00:52:22.235 --> 00:52:24.345
We're refreshing some of the governance arrangements

1166
00:52:24.685 --> 00:52:27.545
and demonstrating to the leadership that it works.

1167
00:52:28.525 --> 00:52:29.705
And that's really powerful

1168
00:52:29.705 --> 00:52:31.145
because then we're dragging the rest

1169
00:52:31.145 --> 00:52:32.305
of the organization along.

1170
00:52:33.835 --> 00:52:36.595
Brilliant. So that, that, that, that, that's really key.

1171
00:52:37.175 --> 00:52:40.835
Um, Amanda, I, I'm gonna say no, you can't,

1172
00:52:42.235 --> 00:52:46.715
But I, I, I'll benefit You see, she has no fear.

1173
00:52:47.095 --> 00:52:48.275
She just goes anyway. No.

1174
00:52:48.275 --> 00:52:51.275
So, yeah. Uh, so Adrian, I guess

1175
00:52:51.305 --> 00:52:53.635
what I was just thinking about it from a career perspective

1176
00:52:53.655 --> 00:52:57.715
for people on the call of like PMO, we've, we've, all

1177
00:52:57.715 --> 00:53:00.125
of us been around this industry,

1178
00:53:00.195 --> 00:53:03.245
I'll call it an industry loosely, um, for a long time.

1179
00:53:03.745 --> 00:53:06.605
Um, the reason that the likes of Adrian

1180
00:53:06.605 --> 00:53:08.645
and I have gotten into roles that we have,

1181
00:53:08.645 --> 00:53:12.165
the privilege we have right now is that we, we voiced

1182
00:53:12.425 --> 00:53:13.525
and we changed things.

1183
00:53:14.105 --> 00:53:15.205
We put our hand up.

1184
00:53:15.345 --> 00:53:20.245
We actually had, yeah, we were fearless in our careers.

1185
00:53:20.505 --> 00:53:22.165
And we have put ourselves on the line.

1186
00:53:22.735 --> 00:53:24.285
We've fallen over a lot of times.

1187
00:53:24.415 --> 00:53:26.685
We've got some great stories where I shouldn't have,

1188
00:53:26.715 --> 00:53:28.205
like we're, we're bruised.

1189
00:53:28.205 --> 00:53:30.325
We're scarred, we've done some stuff we shouldn't,

1190
00:53:30.325 --> 00:53:33.085
we can share some wisdom, but we were fearless

1191
00:53:33.385 --> 00:53:36.605
and we were able, we di we didn't sit in maybe just,

1192
00:53:36.625 --> 00:53:38.525
you know, we had the choice

1193
00:53:38.585 --> 00:53:40.765
to sit there in a PMO management role in our career

1194
00:53:40.765 --> 00:53:42.605
and just head down and our doism told,

1195
00:53:42.905 --> 00:53:44.885
or we, we could be the catalyst

1196
00:53:44.885 --> 00:53:46.005
for change and make things better.

1197
00:53:46.065 --> 00:53:47.765
And we've both chosen to do that.

1198
00:53:48.425 --> 00:53:51.325
And in doing that, we now can speak from a position

1199
00:53:51.325 --> 00:53:53.165
where we do do have that

1200
00:53:53.715 --> 00:53:54.715
Privilege. So that,

1201
00:53:54.715 --> 00:53:56.085
so that brings me to photo

1202
00:53:56.345 --> 00:53:57.445
At 10. Yeah.

1203
00:53:57.505 --> 00:54:00.125
So that, that brings me to two, one minute Got it.

1204
00:54:00.745 --> 00:54:03.285
Two recommendations. One is if you're in that position,

1205
00:54:04.215 --> 00:54:06.235
why don't you reach out to Amanda or to Adrian

1206
00:54:06.735 --> 00:54:08.995
or somebody else for some help, right?

1207
00:54:08.995 --> 00:54:10.275
That's a great place to start

1208
00:54:10.575 --> 00:54:12.795
or go by Laura Barnard's book Impact,

1209
00:54:13.185 --> 00:54:14.955
because that, that gives you a really,

1210
00:54:14.955 --> 00:54:17.275
there's some really good starting points in there as well.

1211
00:54:17.895 --> 00:54:19.675
Um, and, and get started now.

1212
00:54:20.265 --> 00:54:21.315
Jump onto the chat

1213
00:54:21.635 --> 00:54:23.035
'cause we're, we're at the top of the hour.

1214
00:54:23.575 --> 00:54:25.355
Um, this, it feels

1215
00:54:25.355 --> 00:54:28.035
to me like we've only started this conversation,

1216
00:54:28.095 --> 00:54:29.595
so if you want us to do this again,

1217
00:54:30.695 --> 00:54:32.305
drop into the chat and say, yes, please.

1218
00:54:32.435 --> 00:54:33.945
Right. Um, and we'll try

1219
00:54:33.945 --> 00:54:35.305
and schedule something for the new year and,

1220
00:54:35.305 --> 00:54:36.425
and keep the conversation going.

1221
00:54:36.585 --> 00:54:37.505
'cause it feels like we're just getting,

1222
00:54:37.815 --> 00:54:38.665
just getting started.

1223
00:54:38.755 --> 00:54:40.145
Right. Um,

1224
00:54:40.645 --> 00:54:44.385
but I, I do want to thank Amanda and Adrian.

1225
00:54:44.685 --> 00:54:45.785
Um, I've enjoyed it.

1226
00:54:46.395 --> 00:54:49.345
We've kind of jumped a little bit around to get the, the,

1227
00:54:49.365 --> 00:54:50.985
the ball rolling, but it's been brilliant.

1228
00:54:51.045 --> 00:54:53.705
Amanda needs to go. So Amanda, thank you for joining us.

1229
00:54:54.365 --> 00:54:55.665
Adrian, thank you for joining us.

1230
00:54:56.235 --> 00:55:00.535
Reach out to re do reach out to these guys on LinkedIn.

1231
00:55:01.395 --> 00:55:04.015
Yes, please. And, and if you have any

1232
00:55:04.655 --> 00:55:07.135
questions, just reach out.

1233
00:55:07.635 --> 00:55:09.815
We didn't really get time to talk about transparent choice.

1234
00:55:09.995 --> 00:55:12.255
Amanda, thank you. You and I need to talk. I've gotta go.

1235
00:55:12.325 --> 00:55:14.735
Yeah, we, let's catch up next week.

1236
00:55:15.275 --> 00:55:19.655
Um, uh, um, we didn't get

1237
00:55:19.655 --> 00:55:20.855
to answer the questions that people

1238
00:55:20.875 --> 00:55:22.055
had about Transparent Choice.

1239
00:55:22.385 --> 00:55:23.615
These, these webinars.

1240
00:55:23.695 --> 00:55:26.935
I try and keep more thought leadership, less producty.

1241
00:55:27.705 --> 00:55:32.125
Um, but we, we will be doing a, a demo webinar in a week

1242
00:55:32.125 --> 00:55:34.085
or two's time, uh,

1243
00:55:34.345 --> 00:55:38.165
and digging into the transparent choice angle on this.

1244
00:55:38.345 --> 00:55:40.965
And we'll be talking about how it can support

1245
00:55:41.665 --> 00:55:44.445
the portfolio governance processes, uh,

1246
00:55:44.545 --> 00:55:46.885
and make them a little bit more transparent

1247
00:55:47.065 --> 00:55:51.085
and, uh, hopefully go a bit quicker, uh, a bit easier.

1248
00:55:52.055 --> 00:55:53.595
Um, uh, and,

1249
00:55:53.595 --> 00:55:55.955
and I guess I'm, I'm gonna leave the closing

1250
00:55:56.065 --> 00:55:57.195
word, Adrian, to you.

1251
00:55:57.335 --> 00:55:59.475
Is there any sort of last pearl of wisdom

1252
00:56:00.535 --> 00:56:04.075
or go do this tomorrow that you would give to everyone?

1253
00:56:05.055 --> 00:56:07.635
Oh, um, well, firstly by the book,

1254
00:56:07.655 --> 00:56:08.795
that's always a good start.

1255
00:56:09.295 --> 00:56:13.955
Um, but, um, beyond that, I think,

1256
00:56:14.535 --> 00:56:18.035
um, just bear in mind that, uh, as we,

1257
00:56:18.215 --> 00:56:19.915
we originally started, um,

1258
00:56:20.325 --> 00:56:23.445
governance is about decision making, the right people,

1259
00:56:23.465 --> 00:56:25.645
making the right decisions at the right time,

1260
00:56:25.645 --> 00:56:26.845
using the right information,

1261
00:56:26.845 --> 00:56:28.725
the right processes, et cetera, et cetera.

1262
00:56:29.705 --> 00:56:31.165
Um, and that's at all levels.

1263
00:56:31.665 --> 00:56:35.325
So be aware that you can have a material role

1264
00:56:36.305 --> 00:56:37.645
in influencing decisions

1265
00:56:37.905 --> 00:56:40.325
or even making decisions if you are one

1266
00:56:40.325 --> 00:56:41.885
of those accountable people.

1267
00:56:42.945 --> 00:56:46.765
And every time you're involved in governance arrangements,

1268
00:56:47.945 --> 00:56:50.005
ask the question, is it adding value?

1269
00:56:50.545 --> 00:56:53.685
If it's not adding value, put a line through it,

1270
00:56:54.195 --> 00:56:55.615
change it, start again.

1271
00:56:55.715 --> 00:56:58.855
Do something different. If you're just regurgitating

1272
00:56:58.855 --> 00:57:00.815
information that's not governance.

1273
00:57:05.015 --> 00:57:06.175
Excellent. Very good.

1274
00:57:06.355 --> 00:57:08.495
And I'm gonna throw out my one, which is,

1275
00:57:08.755 --> 00:57:10.975
um, slightly self-serving.

1276
00:57:10.975 --> 00:57:12.935
Everybody thinks the thing that they focus on they're

1277
00:57:12.935 --> 00:57:14.655
interested in is the most important thing in the world.

1278
00:57:15.395 --> 00:57:19.045
But I think that that first, the, the prioritization

1279
00:57:19.045 --> 00:57:21.045
and alignment, the intake piece,

1280
00:57:22.065 --> 00:57:24.125
if you fix one piece, fix that.

1281
00:57:25.065 --> 00:57:26.805
And the reason I say that is

1282
00:57:26.805 --> 00:57:27.845
because that is

1283
00:57:27.845 --> 00:57:28.885
where you are defining

1284
00:57:28.905 --> 00:57:30.245
the benefits you're trying to achieve.

1285
00:57:30.355 --> 00:57:33.485
That is where you are setting up the accountability.

1286
00:57:33.675 --> 00:57:36.725
That is where you are allocating resources

1287
00:57:36.865 --> 00:57:40.415
and setting projects up for success.

1288
00:57:40.915 --> 00:57:42.775
And if you set the projects up for success,

1289
00:57:43.115 --> 00:57:45.335
you have a much better chance of them being successful,

1290
00:57:45.645 --> 00:57:47.575
even if your downstream governance is weak.

1291
00:57:48.145 --> 00:57:51.015
Right. So, so I would start there.

1292
00:57:51.235 --> 00:57:53.015
Of course, that is entirely self-serving

1293
00:57:53.015 --> 00:57:54.575
as well, but I still believe it.

1294
00:57:54.575 --> 00:57:57.535
Right. So listen, Howard,

1295
00:57:57.595 --> 00:58:00.495
You've done very well, Stuart to, uh, host this at a,

1296
00:58:00.495 --> 00:58:02.055
um, a service station.

1297
00:58:02.765 --> 00:58:05.695
Yeah. At 10 o'clock at night now, 11 o'clock at night, uh,

1298
00:58:05.695 --> 00:58:08.095
with a two and a half hour drive in front of me to get home.

1299
00:58:08.195 --> 00:58:10.175
So, uh, it's been a pleasure.

1300
00:58:10.175 --> 00:58:11.775
Adrian, thank you for joining us early.

1301
00:58:12.095 --> 00:58:13.775
Pleasure, early your time in the morning. Um,

1302
00:58:13.795 --> 00:58:16.135
it was great having so many people on from Australia.

1303
00:58:16.225 --> 00:58:17.335
Thank you all for joining

1304
00:58:17.915 --> 00:58:20.895
and we will definitely do this again in the new year, uh,

1305
00:58:20.995 --> 00:58:22.375
and keep the conversation going.

1306
00:58:22.875 --> 00:58:24.815
So thank you everybody for joining us today.