So, hello folks.
Um, welcome, welcome to The Crazy Party.
Um, we're, we're gonna have a bit of fun.
As I said, we've got, we've got some PML royalty today.
Um, uh, we've got, we've got the Joker and the Queen.
So Stewart, that would make you the joker in case
you hadn't worked that one out.
Oh. Um, and I'll let, I'll let the,
I'll let the rest fight out who, who's gonna be the Queen.
Um, so, uh, what we're gonna do today is, is really do kind
of a yearend review what's been going on in PMO Land
and what do we think is gonna happen in PMO Land.
Is there, uh, you know, what's the point of A PMO?
Do we still think there's a future in PMO?
And if so, what does that look like?
Those kind of questions.
And to put that into context, I was, today, I was at one
of the, one of the big four, big five,
however many there are these days, consulting companies.
And they, they very blankly kind of ask the question is,
is there any point for having a PMO these days?
So, um, so what I would love to do
is I'm gonna introduce the team in a, in a second,
I'll have them introduce themselves.
Uh, but while I do that, what I would love you to do is
to jump into chat and put your questions up there.
What would you like this panel, this is,
this is your opportunity to put questions directly to, um,
uh, to the team
and find out, uh, you know, to get an idea of
where the world is going.
Um, and Antoine straight in there. Thank you. Um, fantastic.
Glad to see that. So,
let's get some questions in there for the panel.
Uh, I have a few of my own, but let's, let's jump in.
So, to get started, uh, let's,
let's kick off with some introductions.
Um, let's start with double trouble. Eileen and Lindsay.
So, so Eileen and Lindsay, if you, if you don't know,
they are the double trouble that, that really are the,
the powerhouse, the beating heart of the house
of PMO here in the uk.
So guys, why don't you just take a minute,
introduce yourselves, house of PMO.
We've got a very international audience.
So some folks may not have discovered the wonderfulness
that is House of
Pmo. Well, if introduce me
Lindsay,
then Lindsay can introduce the House of pmo.
Okay. So, uh, Lindsay and I have been, um, been friends
and colleagues for over, well,
we kept sitting now since last century.
'cause it's been that long now. Uh, we met at a PMO event.
Um, and I've stayed friends for all of that time
and eventually done more
and more events together till we created the house of PMO.
Yeah. And the house of PMO is a membership based
organization for people that are working in PMO.
Um, and that's everything that you'd probably expect to see,
which is things like, um, events, conferences,
uh, resources,
Certifications, Reports, publications, publications,
competency framework assessment, everything
and everything, uh, everything
and anything to do with, with PMO.
Um, so yeah, check it out, Alison, at pmo.com.
If you're not already aware,
it'd be lovely to see you there.
And, and the, and,
and has PMO runs a couple
of conferences every year in the uk and,
and I've gotta say, um, Laura, plug your is for a second
that, uh, in, in terms of, actually no, in terms
of in-person PMO conferences,
Yes.
Far and away the best. Yes.
Um, they go to extreme lengths to
curate the speakers.
Um, I have spoken there.
I managed to get in twice, but I
don't quite know how that happened.
But despite that, they a lot of effort. Neither do we.
No, no, I know, I know. And you, you're still regretting it.
Right? And, um, and, uh,
and the food's always the best of any conference I go to.
So, you know, between those two things, you can't lose.
Can you, uh, fola over to you?
Well, great to be here today.
And for those who actually don't know me yet, I'm Fola Alby.
And in the world of PMOs
and project management,
my role started about two decades ago from working
as a project manager for the Department of Transport
to going over to my PMO to New York Stock Exchange.
I moved from England to North America as well.
But we'd want vision
to pretty much elevate the project environment discipline.
I have seen the PM's perspective as well as being able
to work with the project management office
to help shape governance and strategy.
And I launched my own business
after working within the financial services, the oil
and gas, to pretty much create strategic drivers who,
leaders who move beyond just delivering
to the triple constraints,
but to be able to accelerate value for organizations.
And I see the PMO as a catalyst for that.
So where we create strategic machines
that not only just think about what we want for our project,
which is great, but
what exactly does the organization truly want?
And that's pretty much the foundation
of my doctorate research as well, on
how we can truly close the strategy to value gap.
And so I'm all about this.
For me, it's beyond just another project.
It is a lifestyle for me.
I integrate this at work, at home and in my business.
And so I'm all about creating a movement
where we can move on together
and create truly successful organizations
that are definitely sustainable,
but ones that definitely create value.
So hit me up for ology everywhere
and let's talk strategic project management
and let's elevate the discipline globally.
So I cannot wait for us to dive in today.
And, and, and I just have to say, right, so, so
the weird world that we live in,
I always meet Fola in places like Riyad in, in,
in, um, Saudi Arabia.
And any, any conference
or any event that, that fola iss at, right?
By definition, the temperature just drops three degrees
every time she walks in.
'cause she is that cool, right? And she just walks in.
There's glamor. She never less than three
cameras pointing at her.
Um, the only person who can even remotely rival f
on the selfie front is drum roll, please.
Laura Barard.
So Laura, over to you, the selfie queen. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm well, yeah. Queen of PMO baby.
Uh, um, so hi everyone.
I'm so happy to see so many names
that I recognize in the chat.
Uh, thank you for being here.
Uh, it's an honor to be with this group
of thought leaders in this space.
Um, I care very deeply about the work that each
of them is doing because we all care very deeply about the
work that all of you are doing.
And, um, you know, we've, we've, we've all spent time, uh,
in your shoes and supporting the work that you do for
so long, because we know that the power
and the future of organizations is
in your ability to be successful.
And so we will change the world together
by supporting each other, um, as is seen
by us all working together, partnering,
and never even considering that there's any competition
between us, because we're all here
to raise the profile of the profession globally.
Um, I personally, uh, have lots of battle scars to, um,
to, to speak to, with respect to PMOs.
I built my first PMO in 1999 in the middle
of the dotcom insanity.
And I had no idea what I was doing, by the way.
Um, as, uh, is the case with many that are starting out now.
Um, after spending 15 years inside organizations, uh,
doing this PMO
and transformation thing, I started PMO Strategies,
the company that we've been running for 11 years.
And the whole reason I started that company was
to serve the people that are on this, uh, webinar today.
And to help them have an easier time than I did, than many
of us did when we were growing up in this space.
So we're here to share our best kept secrets
to make them not so secret so that all of you can, uh,
have a faster path to success.
Uh, I'm the author
of the Impact Engine Accelerating Strategy Delivery for PMO
and Transformation Leaders and the training
and implementation program
and mastermind coaching program that support the people
that are doing this hard work.
Um, so thank you all for having me here.
I appreciate each and every one of you.
Awesome. Thank you, Laura.
And last but not least, it is the Joker. Stuart,
I've decided not to wear makeup today, so
I dunno why I'm getting labeled this. How
Did we, I, I'm, if you're not careful,
I'm gonna burst into song The Joker
and the Queen Sheeran. Don't go wrong
If you're not careful. I'm gonna
put a filter on this
and then I won't have to put makeup on all.
Okay. Go. I thought you already had one on Stewart.
I was talking to, uh, who? Mr. Stewart. You done this?
Mr. Taylor.
Oh, thanks. Thank you. Perfect.
We, we found a system to avoid confusing us, by the way.
Uh, instead of like calling the Stewart
and Stewart, we now both answered to Bruce, so
we can avoid confusion now on that front.
Hey, before I, I, I get into anything, um, big thank you
to Lenora for organizing this
and for all the chasing range.
She's, she's done on that. So big gratitude there.
It's a, it's a tough, tough gig. Uh, I'm Stuart Taylor.
I'm the creator of the influential PMO YouTube channel.
And, uh, yeah, I, I basically ended up in, uh, PMO
by accident, which doesn't seem
to have necessarily been a unique, uh, way in where I,
I basically was a project manager for a number of years,
moved across sectors
and took a role working in an insurance department.
And then after two weeks of being there,
they had a restructure and turned it into a PMO.
And I thought, well, rather leave.
Let's just see how these works out.
And it worked out quite well.
Um, so, uh, I'm glad to be here today with everybody's
wonderful to see, to see you all.
Um, yeah, looking forward to this. And,
And, and Stuart's now kind of officially a,
an almost full-time YouTuber right on,
on all subjects, project management,
and does a little bit of consulting on the side.
So if you need, if you're looking for that kind
of support in the uk, give him a shout.
Um, fantastic. Great to meet you all.
Now, anyone that doesn't know me tough,
where have you been all your life?
So, I'm Stuart, Stuart Easton, I'm the other Stewart.
And, um, so I run a company called Transparent Choice.
We do portfolio management software.
But, but actually I, I spend at least as much time,
um, doing this kind of thing.
Lots of, you know, going to conferences,
speaking just exactly what you said, Laura,
actually just trying to raise the profile, raise awareness,
get people thinking strategically so you know exactly
what you said, Foer and,
and, you know, making sure that as a profession,
we're delivering the value that the business wants from us.
So that's, that's, that's who I am.
So I spend a load of time doing this kind of stuff,
and it's, it's a lot of fun.
Um, now if you're wondering where I am actually, um, so, uh,
are there any Harry Potter fans on,
get your fingers on the keyboards.
'cause I dare say this is gonna be quite, quite, uh,
so where am I?
Laura? I saw your hand go up. Yeah, I can't tell.
I can't tell. So any Harry Potter fans, right?
You see the Christmas tree? Just hang on.
Where's the Christmas tree? Just here. All right.
So there's a down a bit that way.
Queue of people just here, a line of people just there.
That is Platform nine and three quarters.
Oh, cool. So I am at King's Cross Station.
Uh, I didn't plan to be here today, so apologies
for the, the strange background.
Yes. And, uh, happy holidays to everyone.
It's quite a beautiful tree. I, I, I'd rather like that.
Um, now before we get going, I just have one quick
award I would like to give out.
Um, so, uh, we do a couple
of webinars every month,
and there is one person, oh, oh, Tony's on.
Excellent. Uh, so there has been one person who I think
has been to every single webinar
that we have done this year.
So I just wanna thank Ashok, um, hopefully you can see this,
uh, thank Ashok for your support through the year.
We love you and you're welcome. Anytime.
Just give us a shout.
You're virtually a member of the team at this point,
so quick round of applause for our shot.
Well done, mate. Thank you. Um, excellent.
All right, let's jump into it.
So, so first, the first question, uh,
before I go to some of the questions from the,
from the audience, first question is, um,
what do you think is the biggest trend this year?
Or what's the biggest theme
that's been bubbling away around PMO?
Fola? Do you wanna kick us off?
Well, thank you for that.
Yeah, that's right. I'll drop you at any time.
When we think about the PMO business,
I think the new key on the block is ai.
You know, artificial intelligence has been buzzing,
and everyone is talking about, is it gonna replace my role?
Oh, how well, you know, how can we leverage that?
And so artificial intelligence specifically
has been the key driver across the business.
I remember sitting at a meeting with a client
and, um, someone else was saying that
how we sprinkling AI in this, and like, seriously.
But the thing is, executives
and leaders are wondering, how can
we truly be more efficient?
And how can we leverage the tools that we actually have,
you know, in front of us?
And for me, I believe that be beyond AI
or anything else that we have today,
it's all about leveraging technology.
Technology has been key.
I remember when I did my MBA, that was like 15 years ago.
That was a fundamental piece of my research as well.
I, I spoke about the tric confluence
between technology part environment,
and actually business strategy.
The key here is how are we leveraging
the tools in front of us?
Technology has to be a key catalyst for us to, you know,
be more efficient for reporting.
Just being able to really help become better at delivering
the projects that we actually have today.
So as PMO leaders, I believe that we need to start looking,
you know, in our toolbox
to understand, you know, what are we really doing?
What kind of efficiencies can we leverage
from artificial intelligence?
And also, we've been talking about a lot of, you know,
hybrid models and looking at value realization
and becoming more strategic as well.
That's been another key piece
that people have been talking about.
Integrating, you know, your role
beyond just thinking about it from
what we've seen in the textbook.
So what you've obviously done every single day,
but now thinking about it more from a business standpoint.
How are you delivering the value
that the business truly wants?
And what I mean by that is sitting down with the executives
to understand what are the pain points?
Forget about what your job description actually says.
You are there to provide value and become a solution.
And being able to leverage ai, for instance,
or maybe a hybrid model on how you actually deliver
will become a catalyst
that positions you from facing extinction.
I have been within PMOs
that have actually just gone like this, poof.
And I still see them every day.
And I want to hear the feedback from
among all the leaders on the panel.
But technology, you know, evolving to become more
of a strategic force, being seen as a strategic catalyst
is actually critical
to actually differentiate you from those
who are gonna be there today
and those who are gonna be there longer term,
leveraging tools that you have and the people.
That's another thing, um, uh,
I have actually seen like in the last couple of months,
is the training and the support that you need
to give your team members is also a differentiator as well.
So I would say technology, which is ai, you know,
the strategic mindset
or strategic behavior is one that is actually key now
that everyone needs to embrace.
Brilliant. I think we're gonna be coming back to
that theme again and again today.
So, so, uh, uh, Lindsay, right?
You, you guys run all sorts of events,
not just the big events, but the, the flash mobs
and all that kind of good stuff, right?
So what are you hearing? What are,
what are you hearing people talking about as the
Um, okay. The big themes.
Yeah.
Well, I think from our perspective, the whole ai, uh,
gen ai, predictive analytics, all of that kind of stuff,
it's great talk.
Um, there's not actually that much happening in terms
of co in the corporations, in the organizations.
Um, there's still a lot of, um, you know, um, ethics,
fear, and aspiration.
Yes, absolutely. Um, so in terms
of actually utilizing it within the business, um,
still not really there.
Um, uh, yeah, sure,
people are gonna be using it if it can in a,
in their own personal space,
but certainly not within the work environment as much
as we'd be led to believe.
Um, the other, the other thing that I would say
that's probably more, more real is
that word is that Yes, yes. More real. More
Real. Yeah. You can, you
look, you're going
to America in January, you can say whatever you want.
I would say, what? They can't speak English anyway.
They won't understand it.
There is this, this, um,
there is still actually, it's the basics.
Yeah. So it's stuff like, um, we've got project managers
that are trying to deliver, but are not great.
So they're not qualified. Well, we're, um, great experience.
Uh, they're not really good at, um, doing the, the job
that we need to be doing, which means
that the PMO is doing a bit of a support
and holding, mopping up all of that kind of stuff.
Um, we still not really resolve the whole kind of, um,
approaches to delivery.
So bringing in, okay, some agile stuff is waterfall stuff.
There's DevOps product management.
And now we're like, okay, so how's
that linking food business as usual?
Uh, we've just done a session, uh, yesterday in London,
um, resource management.
It's, it's, it still a problem that's not called,
it's the ba it's the basics.
And these are when we get together in a community
and we are listening to people or maybe over a drink
or two in a pop, these are the kind of conversations.
Yeah. So there's the hype stuff,
which will always be the case.
Um, but actually if you scratch beneath the surface,
there's not actually that much going on.
It is still, you know, the top five, isn't it?
Business cases, nightmare benefits management, reporting,
reporting nightmare. So, yeah,
I, I, I think there's one thing that I,
that I would think, I think that, that, that kinda is,
is changing how PMOs think and it,
and it does feed, um, fuller to your, uh, strategic message
is that the, the kind
of the service-based PMOI think is now people actually
understand what that is, uh,
and are starting to recognize that.
I think people don't necessarily realize how difficult it is
to do like a top down approach to
actually I'm only gonna be doing
what fits the objectives rather than all
of the things project managers might want me to do.
But I do think that that concept of a,
of a service based PMO is where people are aiming for.
And in order to get to that
strategic position in the organization,
they've recognized they can't have lots
of little PMOs spread across the organization.
And therefore, this concept of an integrated PMO
where we recognize that actually there needs
to be some joined up thinking at a kind
of PMO director level to say, well, actually, we've got all
of this stuff from delivery.
We've got these PMO resources,
how do we best use our PO resources
to support the whole of delivery?
So doing that kind of top down approach
for looking at the structure of PMOs rather than, oh,
I've got a program I'll fancy having a PMO, oh,
I'm a department, oh, I fancy having a PMO.
It's that kinda strategic allocation
of PMO resources across the businesses
becoming more of a thing.
Yeah, that, that, that's very cool, Eileen.
I mean, I, I recognize that completely.
We've got a customer right now who's wrestling with that.
They, they're, they're in the process
of deploying our software
and they've suddenly realized that it's, it's really hard
to take advantage of a lot of the AI capabilities
that we have because of the silos.
And so they've got resources that are shared, but,
and they don't have control of the resources
that have visibility into the resources
because it's not joined up.
And, and model is
Gonna be great for, um, for PO tool
providers, you know, about having
Paycheck Across the organization.
Well, and, and that that's
one of the things we love to do.
But, but, uh, I'm not here to wave my flag.
Let's not do that. Well, we could do that,
but let's not do that today.
Um, uh, I, I'll tell you, tell you what I'm gonna do.
'cause I, I know Laura wants to jump in
'cause we're getting into the strategy stuff,
but there's a specific question that ties to that.
So, Laura, I'm gonna come to you in a minute on that.
Stuart, can you kill off the AI thing for us? Right?
I don't wanna go down the AI rabbit hole,
but I know you just did.
So this is the last AI topic.
I'm gonna allow anyone else
who says AI is going on mute, right?
Mm-Hmm. So, so last AI thing, um, Stuart,
you did an experiment recently where you tried
to have an AI run a project.
How did that go? Yeah, it had
Its limits. Uh,
so
I, I essentially tasked chat GPT
with being the project manager
and basically just followed its instructions.
The, uh, the idea was it was the brains and I was the hands,
and I just did, as it instructed me,
and wanted to test it as far as it could go in,
in this moment in time.
Uh, it had its advantages, uh, as you can imagine,
documentation, um, turning
rough ideas into something useful and readable
and understandable and communicatable, it was very good.
But, uh, it also had the worst traits
of the worst project managers.
It was weak willed. It ha it was spineless.
Um, if you challenged anything that it said,
it would just fold and just, it couldn't make a decision.
Uh, even though the project manager, I'll say to you,
you are the decision maker.
And it was like, do you think I should do this?
So it was, it was very hard, even with repeated
prompting to make it decisive
and, uh, proactive.
And not to mention the fact that it, it can't be proactive.
It has to wait for you to log on and engage with it.
So it, there is an evolution in AI
that's coming in the next, uh, I think two to 10 years,
I think Gartner said, where, um,
automated AI is gonna come in where it won't sit
around a way for you to ask you to do something.
It'll be thinking for itself and doing things.
So that'll be the next exciting evolutionary leap in ai.
But from what I have seen in this year in the workplace,
AI hasn't swept up through and replaced everybody.
But what it's done is there is AI
and automation that has replaced little
chunks of what we do.
And, you know, there's different kinds
of PMOs everywhere you go, ranging from
a very strategic level involvement all the way down
to very simple adminy kind of tasks.
And it covers the whole range of it.
The people doing the adminy tasks will have noticed things
like, uh, WebEx, uh, meetings now come
with auto transcribing.
So the need for, say somebody there
to do eight hours a minute taking per week, that's gone.
Um, the ability to create content really quickly,
that's reduced.
So anyone who's,
who's seeing this happening live in their workplace
shouldn't feel threatened by it,
even though there's a potential danger there.
If, if you're, uh, oblivious instead, I would suggest
that you look to find ways to add greater value.
Uh, if you're finding that you're not spending
so much time working on these things, find something
of greater value to do.
Don't just sit there and feel lucky
that you've got Tom on your hands there.
Excellent. Excellent. All right.
So, um, uh, that, that's fantastic. Thank you.
Um, so, so Laura, I'm gonna come to you now
'cause there there's a couple of, couple of questions.
So Tony, I just spotted Tony Prince on.
So Tony, I've just promoted you to a speaker.
If you wanna unmute at any point and join in, feel free.
Um, uh,
but Tony asked the question,
what key transformations do you believe PMOs must undergo
to remain relevant and drive strategic impact?
And, uh, and then there was another question,
which if I can find a q and a, gimme a second was from Tom.
And he says, you know, our organization, uh, PMO,
that measured about three, three
and a half level, um, I assume maturity, uh, they're looking
to move to strategic portfolio, uh,
project portfolio management
and drive, trying to drive the change, looking
for any opinions on how to move the program.
So those are kind of the same question in some ways is,
is sort of what do we do if we want to, if we, how do,
'cause because I think the common theme from everybody
so far has been to be relevant, you have to be strategic
because ai, oops, I should mute myself now,
but AI is gonna automate all the, all the dumb stuff, right?
All the non-intelligent stuff, all the reporting,
all the admin stuff, right?
That's gonna get more and more automated.
So if you wanna survive, I mean, you should do this
for other reasons, but if you wanna survive, you have
to become more strategic and focus on the value add.
So, Laura, what, what are your thoughts?
So first of all, um, it saddens me
that we're even having a conversation about survival.
It should be about how you thrive, not just survive.
I think part of that is getting away from this
fear-mongering about technology taking the jobs.
If it is coming
after the jobs in your PMO,
then you're doing the wrong work, right?
They we're all about accelerating strategy delivery.
You want to use technology to accelerate the delivery
of your organization's strategy.
Um, and that leaves you all with the great opportunity
to be the thinkers, right?
You're hired for your experience,
for your expertise in concepts, for your ability
to critically think build relationships
and solve business problems, not just project problems.
That, so leverage technology of any sort
and get out of this thinking
and this mindset that what it's all about, survival
and focus on how might we as a team
help accelerate the delivery of our organization strategy.
None of you are there to do project management.
None of you are there to solve project problems.
You're all there because your business leaders need
to solve business problems.
So I hear all the time people saying, well,
we're not a strategic PMO or we are not focused on strategy.
Well then you really shouldn't be there
because the entire reason your organization exists is
to achieve the business goals.
What are those business goals? Well, it starts
with the vision of the organization.
You build the strategy from that, which is
how are we gonna achieve that vision and serve our clients?
From there, you build your products and your programs
and your projects, and you
manage 'em through these portfolios.
All of it comes back
to why are you there in the first place?
And I think that's something that a lot
of people are missing, is that they keep jumping to,
it's all about the methodology and the tools
and the templates and all that.
Those are the means to the end, not the end and of itself.
And so the, the real shift that is happening,
whether PMO people want it
or not, is it's not about the technology.
It's not about the ai, it's not about the methodologies.
It's about how are you positioning yourself within the
organization to really address the business challenges
and opportunities that your executives have been begging you
to address all along, whether they've said it or not.
Ask your executives why they hired you.
And if they say it's
because project management's broken, it's
because they are playing whack-a-mole on a bunch
of symptoms, and they have no idea what's actually going on.
And most of it, frankly, is them, right?
The executives are the ones that are causing the problems,
but they don't even realize it.
That's the cool role that all of you can play, is
that you can help figure out where the real root causes
of these challenges are.
And it's not in better project management templates.
You know, yes, you need those things,
but that's not where the value you bring to the table is.
You are the ones that can be the strategy navigator looking
across all of the things
that the organization's trying to accomplish.
Help them get laser focused on the ones
that are gonna achieve the biggest return on investment.
And then figure out how you accelerate that, right?
You build a strong foundation, not tech based on like,
what are the right things for us to do
to get those problems solved?
And then from that, you add on things like the right,
you know, uh, methodologies and technology to accelerate.
But so many people are jumping to the fancy tools
and the fancy stuff
and not focusing on the basic fundamentals
of why are we here?
What is our business trying to do?
So many people don't even know
what the strategy is of their organization.
Let's fix that first
and make sure everybody understands
what the business problems are you must solve,
and then you'll find, and then help your leaders prioritize.
And then you won't have a resource management problem.
You won't have some of these other problems
that were symptoms because you'll get to that root cause
of my executives don't prioritize.
My executives are not clear on what the strategy is.
That's when you can unlock those things.
You're going to, you will get your seat at the table.
'cause you'll have no choice. They'll need you there.
A hundred percent. A hundred percent.
And, and so fola, what's, what's your take on
that same, same question to you?
Really?
Can you repeat the question, please?
Yeah, yeah. So it's what does, what, what do PMOs need
to do to transform and keep, stay relevant?
Uh, uh, uh, as, as things, things are changing so rapidly?
Well, we go back to the basics.
I ask the question, you know, to every csuite executive
or any project manager act, you know,
why are we truly in business?
When you are hired for a role, you are a PMO director,
and you know, you have the, the project, you know,
that portfolio of maybe a hundred
million dollars or whatever.
But at the end of the day,
that particular portfolio ties back to the business,
the reason why they're in business, right?
That's why you have a project to
actually govern and all that.
And so, at the end of the day, for you to stay relevant,
we need to go back to understand
the why behind the business.
I tell AX a PM as well,
and I said, you know, do you even understand the p
and l that ties into this?
Do you understand, you know, the cost of doing business?
Do you understand, you know, ebitda?
What are these elements, you know, when executives coming,
uh, to the strategy meeting, what do they truly care about?
Those are the things that you need to start thinking about.
First of all, because at the end of the day,
even if your products actually delivered on time, on budget,
on schedule, it may still be a failure
because business objectives could have actually moved.
Technology could have actually changed.
Regulatory stuff could have actually changed as well.
So they are bigger drivers.
They're the bigger rocks that you need
to start thinking about, how does this piece affect me?
That way you'll always stay relevant.
As Laura said, you haven't got a choice.
You'll definitely end a seat at the table.
When I think about, you know, someone asks a question,
as well said, at the maturity level
that I am out at the moment, how do I really elevate
every single time you need to ask a question?
Am I surely adding value
that's moving the needle for the organization?
What does that mean? It's like,
it starts with a self-assessment.
Where am I at at the moment, right?
What's the current state? What are we currently doing?
What does the business want?
What does the market want as well?
That's another layer of it,
because you may even business may want something,
but the market may be changing.
You as a PMO leader can actually be in front of
that and say, guess what?
I just found that in the healthcare industry,
somebody's actually gonna, there's gonna be a shift.
We have to start changing the way we do business.
When you see what exactly you tell them
that they're gonna say, listen,
I wanna talk to you for a moment.
Let's, let's have this conversation.
This is wanna find what's the cost of, you know,
even borrow money for our projects.
How does that really impact our budget?
Because when you say about your product cost $10 million,
it's actually not $10 million.
There's a cost of borrowing that money as well.
That's gonna impact you saying something, Laura.
No, I'm saying yes. I'm like, there's no way for me
to clap in the the little icon thing.
Okay. Icon, yes.
So that there's so many things that come into play
that actually determines how a business becomes successful.
So we need preamble leaders.
We need parameters who are gonna say beyond
what the PM book actually says, I don't have to deliver
that, but what really makes the business tick?
What are the things I need to understand?
What are those other deeper layers
that really makes an organization successful?
And people might say, it's really on my job
description, that's fair.
But the people who are gonna be able to stand the test
of time, who are gonna also chat the parts executive
leadership faster,
and those one who are gonna say,
I wanna become a strategic driver.
I wanna become a strategic, I wanna add value.
And that's the same reason why it
gets narrow at the top, right?
The people who earn up to a million dollars
and the people went a hundred thousand pounds
or less, there's a differential.
But when you go study the skillset that they have,
they are the ones who truly, you know,
are invested in the business
and can actually ask the questions, can build relationships,
but can be seen as the ones
who are truly making the right impact.
As Laura always talks about. Just, I
I, I, I do, I I, I just, I find
what you're saying, absolutely.
Fall. I absolutely agree with,
and I understand the impact driver A
and where we want to be,
but I also think it's really important to remember
the number of PMO leaders in an organization is small.
Yeah. The number of work people
who actually work in PMOs is enormous.
And I, so we, we also need to remember,
and to give something to those people who are new,
coming into the PMO, who
perhaps have moved from an executive assistant.
Their first job in A PMO might
be managing the risk register.
And so all of this kind of strategic, we, we have
to start bridging the gap in terms of
how do we get to that position?
How do we become
and get in our position to be an impact driver?
So if I'm starting off and I, I'm a new graduate
and I've come into the world of business
and I've come into the world of PMO,
I can hear them listening to think, oh,
that's really inspirational,
but actually I'm 10 steps behind, so that's fine.
I, where do I go from here to getting into
that leadership position?
And I just, you know, this kind of, this talk about kind of,
we've just been saying the PMO um, profession,
the PO division has to be strategic thinking,
but there has to be room for people to come into the PMO
and to do a junior role understanding that concept.
And it's up to the leaders to share that with them
and understand how they contribute.
But I think there's still an awful lot of people who need
to do a kind of a honest
to goodness support project delivery job to oil the wheels.
And as we often say by John McIntyre,
to help organizations deliver projects with less energy
and less adrenaline.
So this strategic tool is great,
but it's preaching to a small amount of people.
There's a huge, but the different
Tier, these are just jumping a little bit, Lisa,
you're different tier, the same
what we have in project management.
The PM is actually there.
You're gonna have a project admin,
you're gonna have a coordinator,
you're gonna have like a scheduler
to different people doing different roles.
But at the end of day, collectively, even if I'm an admin,
right, you're a coordinator, you've actually been asked
to go create an actual report.
You see what a pm and you ask the pm a question,
what's the status of your report today?
And they tell you, you, everything is fine.
I'm 20% complete.
For an admin person who is thinking bit more strategic,
they're gonna ask the question to say, you told me
that two weeks ago.
I can already see that there's probably a problem.
Rather than just being the one who just takes the notes
and just says, yes, check the box.
I think I've done this. You could even ask questions to say,
I actually saw this similar risk on a different project
because I'm actually correlating the reports.
Have you had a conversation with the other PM
or is there something else we need to be thinking about?
You don't actually need to be an
executive actually thinks strategically.
My 6-year-old can actually think strategically
because every time they make decisions, they're gonna say,
what are the connected layers?
What else could be affected
by the decisions I'm actually making today?
I don't need to be the one who signs a $5 million check.
But a, a a mindset
or a behavior where we always think about
like systems thinkers.
We say, whatever I'm doing now, what else
could be impacted by that decision?
Just like a connected wheel.
And so I'm not just saying that I need
to do like the profitable loss
and actually stand out all the bigger checks.
No. But in everything we do always think
beyond your current role
and how does it really impact the next,
even the next admin person, how does this actually connect
to the next project manager?
How can I make my PMO manager feel a little bit better?
And then ask the question to say,
why, why should we doing this?
Maybe you had a conversation on the, at a train station
that knows that the straight product might even be canceled.
Why should we even do that? So at every level we are in the
organization, I believe that there is a hat
that we can always wear where we can question things,
we can think critically.
And being an admin person, even the person
who sweeps the floor, I, there, there's a famous one
where they say there was a cleaner when they had
to put someone on the moon, right?
And they ask them a question, he walks for nasa, I say, I,
my food is cleaning every day
to make sure we can get that man to the moon.
How are they, what's that mindset that they come
with every single day?
The key here is we wanna make sure
that everything we are doing connects to moving
and creating bigger value.
So I'm not saying that an admin person today has
to start thinking about profitable losses and stuff,
but in every decisions that we make, in every interaction
that we are creating is that thinking about
what are the repo effects?
How can I be more efficient today?
How can I collaborate so
that I can actually create bigger and greater value?
So I hope I answered that question.
So I just wanna comment on this
'cause I agree with both of you.
I think Eileen is spot on, that we do need resources
to support people that are just starting in their career.
And also, I think that it's really important to make sure
that people understand the context within their,
which they're supposed to use these tools.
Yes. Right? Yes. So 95% of the typical workforce, according
to Harvard Business View,
does not understand their company strategy.
If anybody at any layer in the organization does not
understand why they are there,
they can't possibly help you
accelerate getting to the outcomes.
And that's what it's all about. So it's not just about
how perfect your templates
and your tools and your outputs are.
It's making sure that they are tied
to the better business outcomes the
organization is trying to drive.
And so everybody at every level can be taught, this is
what you're doing and why you are doing it so
that we can get to those better business outcomes.
It's, it's shifting people's mindset from being order
takers to impact drivers.
So Eileen, thank you for the shout out on the
impact driver term.
It's in the book. Um,
but the reason for that, that is important.
Everybody can be an impact driver no matter
how much experience you have, it's about a mindset shift.
The impact driver mindsets are about shifting the way you
think about the work you're doing.
So even if you are doing administrative
or junior level tasks
or whatever you wanna call it, you know, then that's okay
as long as you can connect the dots.
We, decades ago I put a dashboard outside the door
of my office with the portfolio of prioritized projects.
It was the first time that people in
this company ever saw it.
And nobody said anything to these people other than exposing
to them when things were read.
And and so people, everybody from who answered the phones
all the way to the c-suite,
how they operated changed when they just simply saw, oh,
I'm on this project, or Oh,
this customer called and they're not happy.
I wanna make sure to really jump on this quickly
because their project's in red
or whatever the reasons people will change their behaviors
if they understand the context within which they are working
and what success looks like.
So we, and and this is, I I believe,
focused on PMO leaders, right?
This, this and this. The PMO, right?
So, um, Eileen, I'm with you on, we need stuff
to support those junior people,
but it's all the contextual conversations
that I think full is trying to get to that really help, uh,
people truly get to those business outcomes faster.
You're, and, and I wanna comment on this trends thing.
This, okay, I built my first PMO in 1999.
The same things executives were asking
of me then are the things executives
are asking for us to do.
Now, these are not new trends.
What's changing is there's more of us
with the same messaging trying to elevate this industry
and educate this industry,
but the executives are asking for the same darn things.
They've always been asking for SO'S not overcomplicate this
and get too much into the buzz,
Nothing's changed. Let's,
and, and let's be really clear, right?
It's, it's 2024
and it's this year
that the PMI has actually changed the definition
of project success to be about value.
That is shameful. I mean, that is shameful.
Well, we know some of the people
that are in there that are pushing this.
Yeah, we do, we do to make that happen.
And there's a and there's a whole bunch of people, you know,
so, so, so it's great.
We're shifting to, so, so just one quick thought
and then let's, let's move on to a different topic.
Uh, Stuart, I wanna come to you in a second.
Um, so, so one quick thought on this is, so, so I have this,
this sort of theory that, um,
every PMO should actually have the same job description,
which is to maximize the ROI from,
from the portfolio projects.
So simple as that. Now, in some cases that, you know,
if you're really low maturity and, and there is no structure
or anything, then just putting in place some supporting
structure is gonna help, right?
It's gonna move you towards your
ability to execute strategy.
If you've got that basic, you know, control
around projects in place, then it's some
of the more value added portfolio management is stuff
that that'll probably drive the impact.
But the key thing is to really look at what are the
business problems you the leadership has?
What's the root cause of those problems?
And fix those root causes.
Don't just reflexively fix whatever it is
that they complain about, because chances are there's
something fundamentally deeper that needs the work.
And if you fix that, you're gonna fix a bunch
of things all at once.
So, um, so, you know, the, the, the, the role
of the PMOI think should change over time.
We've got Stuart Dixon on who, who wrote the, you know, the,
the mega service catalog of 250 odd different services
that A PMO should have.
I don't think anyone on this call would recommend you go out
and buy Stuart's book and then implement all 250
of those services, right?
That's not the right answer.
So focus on what are the problems the business has
and start knocking them down.
Look at the root cause. And sometimes the root cause will
be, we just need some support.
And other times it'll be, we need to do some real
strategic alignment, resource allocation.
Usually it's that, by the way, that's normally
where you end up pretty quickly.
Um, Stewart, there was a question. Mr.
Q asked a question earlier on about, um, about agile
and change management, and surely they're dead.
You know, the presses the mainstream press is full of, uh,
or the, the executive press is full of the fact that,
you know, Agile's dead change
management's yesterday's story.
What do you think? Is that right?
Maybe it's, uh,
there are, right, right now we've got so much best practice,
so much good practice, so much good knowledge going on.
And again, a lot of that come
through this call at the moment.
And where it smashes into the real world is the point
where you've got boards
and execs making decisions and making cuts.
And we've seen so many people lose their jobs this
year, myself included.
You know, that was the,
that was the transition into full-time creator.
I thought they needed a full-time.
Uh, PMO with a lot of experience, they disagreed.
That was also the case for the change
manager that was working there.
And it was also the case for the person
who was advocating agile there,
or discovered from a different team from data and analytics.
And this is not unique.
Essentially, people are being let go of who,
whose roles are not understood when they're having
to fight over every penny
when departments are being told you gotta make cuts.
It's the people whose role isn't clear
and the value that they're bringing isn't
clearly understood.
They're the ones who are being let go.
So, oh, yes, is there a future for Agile and Change mind?
Absolutely there is, and have no doubt there's a big future
for PMOs of all levels.
But it always comes back.
It's, it's, the central theme of this conversation is value.
And it's not just about the value you bring,
it's the better value you can demonstrate that you bring.
If you bring in agile
and you, you're, you are changing the way the organization
works and you're delivering projects better,
and you're making huge savings for them,
you're getting them, you're releasing value
from the projects even quicker.
They're gonna love you. You're gonna be safe.
If you are the change manager who knows everybody
who embeds everything, who is the trusted person who's
that interface between the project delivery
and the business itself, they'll be afraid
to let go of you.
Mm-Hmm. If you are the PMO
who can demonstrate we have brought control to
what previously was, maybe they won't like to hear,
it was chaotic, but let's say it's all disorderly,
you make yourself indispensable, then
that's the real challenge here.
So agile change management and PMOs all have a future,
because if we lost them now, someone would have
to reinvent them in a year's time
because they're needed, they're essential.
Um, excellent. So, no, they're not, they're not gonna
Go back, not gone. So,
so here's one quick thought, right?
So we, we talk a lot, uh, Eileen Lindsay,
thank you for posting that.
There's the, the link to the book.
Um, so the one quick thought, right?
So we talk about ducks a lot, and the reason we do that is
because your executives really don't care about your
projects, right?
Your projects are like ducks.
They don't care if you've got a boy duck or a girl duck.
They just want eggs.
So actually your executives shouldn't care
about the details about whether it's agile
or waterfall or what did we come up with the other week?
What water, scrum, scrum on a split Cru,
but a Cru, or, yeah, that was it.
Yeah. Right? They, they really don't care what it is.
They, they really don't care what that methodology is.
All they care about is, are we getting the eggs at the end?
Are we gonna get the value at the end?
So, um, you know, I, it, it's an interesting question.
Lots of people talking about it.
We had a good conversation with Jesse Fuel about
this out in LA Laura.
Um, but at the end of the day, it's about delivering value.
And Stuart, you nailed it, right?
If you're delivering that value, it's not, oh, by the way,
it, it's not enough to deliver value.
You've gotta make sure everybody knows you've delivered
that value, right?
It's gotta be visible. You've gotta go and wave the flag.
You've gotta market the value that you, you've delivered.
Um, Eileen and Lindsay,
you're gonna come over to you for a second.
So, there've been a few questions about training
and developing people
and, you know, whether it's PMs,
there have been different questions about, you know,
young early career PMO people or PMs and the role of PMO
and, and bring PMs on.
Um, you guys spend a lot of time in this area of sort
of helping develop people.
What are your thoughts of, in terms of the role of the PMO,
um, what the boundaries are, what the goals of
that should be when intervention is appropriate?
All that kind of good stuff. Just give you a few
minutes to talk on that topic.
Well, there's a, I think there's a,
there's a couple of things though.
Uh, Lindsay and I, um, as, as we said,
we've known each other a long time and,
and a long time ago we talked about, um,
the mythical PMO competency framework
because an awful lot of PMO people, um,
ended up getting lots of project management qualifications
that taught 'em how to be a project manager,
and then had to try
and distill from that what it was like to be a PMO person.
Um, and so we used the community
and released, um, five years ago now some time like that,
um, the first pay more competency framework
and recognized that actually there's a, we, we, you know,
we move people from an administrator role to an analyst role
to a manager role.
And we did to suggest,
because we know people exist at the director role,
and looking at how the various competencies change
as you move through those roles,
but also focusing on the different types
of PMO that you are working.
So whether you work in a project
or program portfolio office,
but then also looking at not just the competencies,
but also the behaviors that sat behind that.
And so we, we have done a series of qualifications
that are delivered by a, a number of, uh,
training organizations across the globe aligned to
that competency framework.
So there is now a very clear, um, um,
career path for people who work in PMOs
and House of PMO members also have the ability
to do in a self-assessment, so they can see where the,
that development is actually required.
Yeah. And we recognize
that you can learn risk management in a project
and program office, but actually learn a risk management
for a portfolio office at a director level
might be completely different.
So we kind of take people through that journey.
There's been a question actually brilliant, um,
which is about, um,
which actually dovetails quite nicely with this.
It's put, um, believe a major part of PMOs dilemma is
that they're often asked to perform tasks without any
of the authority or powers to actually get things done.
If we fix this part,
I think PMOs will get better at trying get,
get further along the line
with the whole value delivery stuff.
What's the team's view on this aspect, right?
And that's exactly what we're talking about is
because there's competency, there's knowledge,
there's skills and behaviors,
and it's that combination of all of those.
But yeah, sure, some of it is gonna be in terms of what kind
of PMO it is and
where it's position positioned in the organization.
However, there's also be gotta be
that development per on individuals.
'cause not everybody is gonna be leading PMOs is perfectly
happy people that are quite happy to be in the PMO and,
and turning those cogs and, and what have you.
It is purely around, I think from a PMO leadership point
of view, this kind of stuff where,
you know, it becomes more crucial.
And I think before we put together the competency framework,
which again, has been put together with people all
around the globe, is to make sure that the skills
and certainly the behavioral side of it is gonna be able to,
and does address some of this kind of stuff around,
you know, the, can you remember off the top
of your head some of the, the behavior stuff that we talk
About? Well terms, we, we
certainly talk about being, um, some
of the things that kinda Laura and f were talking about
before about challenge professionally.
Yes. Yeah. Um, but I,
but I think the other thing is as well is that, you know,
what, what's embedded through that competency framework is,
is best practice
and certainly perhaps an area
that's not been addressed previously, is recognizing
that when you are setting services up in A PMO
to establish the right governance
structure to support that service.
Yes. So I think PMOs do things without thinking, well,
actually what governance structure needs to be around that?
And I know a number of PMO managers who've said, right,
we're gonna do monthly reporting.
They've not spoken to the project managers
because what they've done now is commit the supply chain,
which is the project managers to say,
we've just volunteered you
to complete reports on a monthly basis.
You know, so that, you know, that whole concept
of setting up a service correctly
includes ensuring we've got the right governance,
so the right behaviors doing that role,
the right governance, but also the right use
of our stakeholders in them understanding what we're doing,
why we're doing, and who's gonna be, you know, kind of, uh,
what the, the benefits
and the value of that is to the organization.
So that whole kinda service setup
and your, your role in that from administrator
to directors is also the things that are covered
and underpinned through that competency framework.
Nice, nice. I just,
I just wanna comment that I think there was a huge gap in
the industry before they created this
with this competency framework.
And I think, so thank you to you both for all the work
that went into creating this,
because I think that's, as people were commenting,
there's not enough of career path.
And what does success look like at every layer
in, uh, the journey?
Maybe not everyone is starting at, you know, at the top.
How do you get there? And not just
what are the things you should do,
but how you should do them.
And I think that's a really important point
of this competency framework, is it's the leadership
and the influence and all of the other things
that surround what to do.
There's a way to do it that will help you with that more,
um, you know, be more influential
and understanding the business
and challenging, asking the right questions.
So thank you to you all
and all the work you did to finally make that, uh,
competency framework a reality.
I think it's huge for the PMO space.
Agreed. A hundred percent. Agreed. So we've got time.
I can't believe the hour is almost up, right?
So we've got time, I think for one more question
and you're each allowed one answer.
So the question is, what one thing,
can everybody on this call do differently?
Change that will make their job the world,
their workplace better?
You're allowed one thing
and it's gotta be something they personally can do.
So you can't say, you know, they would change the mindset
of the executives, right?
They don't have, they're not empowered to do that.
It's gotta be something that they can control
and that they can, that they can do.
And, and so mine is gonna be get out there
and learn about the strategy of your business.
What does strategy mean? What are the goals of the business?
And how do the people around you think
you're gonna execute it?
And what are the barriers? If you do nothing else,
you have total control on whether or not you do that.
You can go out and you can talk to people,
you can get strategy documents.
You can ask your boss. You can ask people two levels
above you, just for a cup of coffee and ask them questions.
You can do that on your own.
You don't need permission, you don't need a program.
You don't need budget. Just do it. Uh, Stuart, over to you.
Wow. I, I, I think I'll make a, a,
a better effort, um, to, to get
to know more people.
Uh, I've maybe been a little bit, uh, not self-focused,
uh, or self-obsessed
or any of the other things
that I get accused of around here.
Um, it's more a case that, uh, perhaps have tended
to be a little too transactional, uh, in the last few years.
And perhaps I need to be a little bit
more relationship focused.
I think that would help.
Excellent. Where do you wanna go next? Stuart?
You, you send us onto the next person.
Oh, Laura.
Um, uh, so I, I think it's, uh, um, in,
I think you should be a little self-focused, some of you,
and invest in yourself.
Invest in learning how
to do the things we've been talking about here.
Learn how to shift your focus from outputs to outcomes.
Learn how to be an impact driver.
Those are all things that we've,
we've all been writing
about, teaching, about, talking about.
Have resources for a shameless plug for the book.
Go, go read the Impact Engine
and it'll tell you how to do all
the things we're talking about here.
Shameless plug for the book there, but absolutely.
I've poured my heart, soul into it, right?
Just like all of us have for all of our resources.
The answers are there and it's not as hard as you think.
Excellent. Right. Where are we going next, Laura?
Well, I think we should go to Eileen and Lindsay.
Okay. Uh, well, I'll just do one from a, uh,
we had a session a couple
of weeks ago about accidental project managers
and we know everybody, everybody on this call has got them
within their organization.
So, um, one of the outcomes from that was, um,
that some organizations
and some PMOs do a lot more to help their
accidental, or in their words,
unintentional project managers, um,
which really sparked a lot of, um, talk
and energy with people, um, on the session.
So what about thinking for 2025?
What could you do differently with these people
that are accidental project managers in terms of Sure.
Do they need from that PMO, um, and, um,
and from you personally.
Um, 'cause I think if we can work on that,
we'll probably start to see, uh, an increase in maturity
around our projects,
Right? J So James Evans,
I know you're on James, if you heard
that, that's one for you.
'cause you've got a million of those dotted around. Awesome.
Uh, I get on as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go for it.
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna pick up on, um, the session
that I did at PM Learn Edinburgh conference,
which is about reflection about, you know, um,
people don't learn from experience.
People only learn about reflection on experience.
And so a a bit of what Stuart said
and a bit what Laura said, actually think about
what you are learning as you go through
and plan your development
and plan your activities to help you grow.
Yeah, love it. Love it.
Fola, I've left you to last just
to leave everyone a real adrenaline high.
Oh my goodness. What I was, Sam, I'm gonna bring it all in
and I'm gonna let you remember this.
I want you all to strap up.
And what I mean by that, it's bringing in
what Laura has said, what Lindsay has said.
It starts with a self-assessment. Go away.
It's the end of the year self-assessment.
Understand what's my current state? Where am I at today?
What are my strengths? What are my weaknesses?
What are my fears? What are limiting factors that I have?
The next key is the tactical research.
Go off and understand the market.
You know where you are now.
You wanna understand the business. If you're in healthcare,
if you're in tech, what exactly in the industry trends,
what are the key things that are in demand right now?
Because at the end of day, if you don't actually know
that is, it doesn't make any sense.
That's the t the R is actually re-engineering.
You wanna take what you've done from a self-assessment
and the tactical research
and re-engineer to understand the gap.
Where does the gap exist?
You may actually be good at reporting this.
Um, see what said he wants to build more relationships.
He wants, it might be more communication.
What you wanna actually build on. Where does the gap exist?
And then the next step is, is an A assets align.
Bring all of that together and align them and create a plan.
So 2025 is gonna be different.
I wanna earn 50,000 pounds more,
or I wanna start my business.
Whatever that is, create a plan.
And when you have a plan, the next piece for you to optimize
and project manage your career in the library you crave is
just one project away.
Strap up, take it to the next level. It's super easy.
I did this. I just wanna leave you one story.
I remember the first job I ever got as a pm it was
for the department for transport.
That was a job I thought I was never gonna get.
Believe it or not. I stepped into the room,
I had about 10 people on the panel.
I'm like 10 people just for a PM role.
It was even a contract role. I'm like, just forget it.
Right? It's never gonna happen.
So I dropped my bag, you know,
and I asked them for a coffee, do you want tea or coffee?
I'm like, yes, I want tea, coffee, and water.
And I sat down, I'm like, you know, let's just have fun.
And then they asked so many questions,
but at the end of that interview,
rather than me being interviewed, I was interviewing them,
I was asking questions like, how is this IT infrastructure?
How does it impact, you know, the other business,
how we looked, the national real, this, you know, how,
what are we doing when it comes to this technology?
And it was interesting, the SRO at the point at
that time was like, I haven't seen any other person
who was more, you know, interested in all the elements
of the business, what we could actually leverage.
He said, you were different. And I was just curious.
Curiosity was what landed me that job.
Before I got out of that
to the transition at chairing cross,
I got a call from the agency when we wanting
to start immediately being curious, being, wanting to learn
is the key differentiator.
Just being open to say, you know, a beginning of mindset.
I just wanna learn today.
This is kind of what I'm good
at and it's what a business needs.
How can I help? That has been a game
changer for you, for me.
And I wish you all the best.
And I wanna say thank you so much, ward, for the opportunity
to actually serve today.
It's been a great joy. So,
Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank
you, FOLA. That, that, that's brilliant.
That, that did summarize it all beautifully.
So, so I, I, I wanna thank the panelists.
Uh, but, but first I wanna thank everybody who's turned up
and given an hour to this session.
Y you, Laura,
Laura said it just a second ago in the chat, right?
PMOs are changing the world, hopefully for good, right?
And coming to sessions like this is a, is an investment.
We appreciate you to making the investment.
We'll make the investment as long
as you keep making the investment to come to learn
and to make the world better.
That's why we do it.
So, so a million thanks to you all for coming first,
but then I, I really do wanna thank the panelists.
I know it's a crazy time of year
and people are whizzing
around all over the place trying to close the year out.
Laura, you are on and off airplanes.
Um, and, uh, Eileen
and Lindsay going out buying swimwear,
I suspect first Yeah, come visit me
In south Florida To, to Florida, right?
Which is a good place to be in January.
Certainly better than the uk I gotta say that.
I'll, I'll give you that one, Laura.
Um, so, so, uh, Bruce, thank you, uh, FOLA,
Eileen, Lindsay, uh,
and Laura, thank you for making the time
and sharing your knowledge, your special people.
And it's always fun doing this with you guys.
So thank you guys
and uh, happy holidays to everyone out there.