WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.105 --> 00:00:03.205 So Abraham Maslov said, in any given moment, 2 00:00:03.265 --> 00:00:06.445 we have two options to step forward into growth 3 00:00:07.105 --> 00:00:09.045 or to step back into safety. 4 00:00:10.225 --> 00:00:12.205 And I think part of what we're gonna try 5 00:00:12.205 --> 00:00:15.445 and do today is give you some frameworks 6 00:00:15.445 --> 00:00:18.125 and ideas on how to step forward bravely 7 00:00:18.665 --> 00:00:20.165 safely with confidence. 8 00:00:20.825 --> 00:00:24.085 So my name's Stuart Easton, and I'm the CEO 9 00:00:24.085 --> 00:00:25.965 and one of the founders here at Transparent Choice. 10 00:00:26.425 --> 00:00:27.765 We do these webinars every month. 11 00:00:27.765 --> 00:00:30.885 They're, they're, they're not about our product 12 00:00:30.945 --> 00:00:32.165 or our company or anything like that. 13 00:00:32.235 --> 00:00:35.125 It's really just things that are interesting in 14 00:00:35.125 --> 00:00:39.285 and around project management, portfolio management, 15 00:00:40.085 --> 00:00:42.165 strategy, execution, those kind of areas. 16 00:00:42.265 --> 00:00:44.165 So if you're into change, delivering change 17 00:00:44.165 --> 00:00:47.565 and transformation, which most people on this session are, 18 00:00:48.235 --> 00:00:49.845 then this is a great place for you to come. 19 00:00:49.845 --> 00:00:52.125 And I encourage you to come back again and again and again. 20 00:00:52.245 --> 00:00:55.285 A shock, for example, comes to almost everything that we do. 21 00:00:55.945 --> 00:00:58.405 Um, so it's always great to see him piling in here, 22 00:00:58.865 --> 00:01:00.605 and I'm sure he will be very chatty 23 00:01:00.605 --> 00:01:02.525 as the session gets going and asking questions. 24 00:01:02.985 --> 00:01:05.805 And that's key, right? I want you to be involved. 25 00:01:05.985 --> 00:01:08.405 Get in there, ask questions, make comments. 26 00:01:09.225 --> 00:01:10.805 If Rebecca says something you like, 27 00:01:11.295 --> 00:01:13.805 let's have some thumbs up and hearts floating up the screen. 28 00:01:13.825 --> 00:01:16.845 If she says something ridiculous, you know what to do. 29 00:01:18.425 --> 00:01:19.565 All right? But make it fun. 30 00:01:19.575 --> 00:01:21.525 Let's have some fun, let's have comments. 31 00:01:21.985 --> 00:01:24.765 If you've got stories that, that reflect 32 00:01:24.765 --> 00:01:26.525 what we're talking about, please share 33 00:01:26.645 --> 00:01:27.725 'em in the chat, right? 34 00:01:27.785 --> 00:01:30.565 And, and where I can, I will in, in integrate 35 00:01:30.565 --> 00:01:31.685 that into the conversation. 36 00:01:32.305 --> 00:01:34.165 All right. So those are the ground rules. 37 00:01:34.945 --> 00:01:36.485 Um, gimme a quick thumbs up 38 00:01:36.865 --> 00:01:38.445 or a quick heart on the screen 39 00:01:38.865 --> 00:01:39.925 to let me know that you got it. 40 00:01:39.925 --> 00:01:42.725 There we go. We've got some thumbs ups. Fabulous. 41 00:01:42.915 --> 00:01:44.765 I've got a good feeling. Thank you guys. 42 00:01:45.505 --> 00:01:47.485 So let me introduce our guest. 43 00:01:48.475 --> 00:01:53.165 Rebecca is, um, is on mute, just in case you're not aware. 44 00:01:53.165 --> 00:01:54.485 Rebecca, you are still on mute. 45 00:01:54.715 --> 00:01:55.805 Rebecca is on mute, 46 00:01:56.345 --> 00:02:00.885 and Rebecca runs, uh, Rebecca Reynolds Consulting, which is, 47 00:02:00.945 --> 00:02:04.725 um, an organization that works with leaders 48 00:02:05.305 --> 00:02:07.005 of mostly government agencies 49 00:02:07.185 --> 00:02:09.165 and not-for-profits and things like that. 50 00:02:10.225 --> 00:02:15.085 Um, with executive teams who are wrestling with change, 51 00:02:15.145 --> 00:02:17.245 who are wrestling to deliver the change 52 00:02:17.425 --> 00:02:20.445 and to deliver the, the results, the business results 53 00:02:20.445 --> 00:02:21.485 that they're trying to achieve. 54 00:02:22.755 --> 00:02:24.935 Um, I call her the executive whisperer 55 00:02:24.935 --> 00:02:28.695 because her job is to say the things to the execs 56 00:02:28.695 --> 00:02:30.295 that perhaps other people can't say, 57 00:02:31.155 --> 00:02:32.335 to have the conversations 58 00:02:32.335 --> 00:02:33.495 and the hard conversations 59 00:02:33.525 --> 00:02:35.735 that other people might not be able to have 60 00:02:36.125 --> 00:02:37.375 with the executives safely. 61 00:02:38.265 --> 00:02:39.655 We've worked on a couple of projects, 62 00:02:39.655 --> 00:02:41.455 and Rebecca can tell you a little bit about some of that. 63 00:02:41.455 --> 00:02:42.895 We've worked on a couple of projects together, 64 00:02:43.495 --> 00:02:45.015 bringing communities through change, 65 00:02:45.115 --> 00:02:46.255 not just the leadership team, 66 00:02:46.255 --> 00:02:48.495 but whole communities through change. 67 00:02:49.515 --> 00:02:52.415 And for today, there, there are really a couple of couple 68 00:02:52.415 --> 00:02:54.375 of three dimensions that I want to bring out. 69 00:02:54.835 --> 00:02:58.155 So the first is, um, you know, change is happening. 70 00:02:58.375 --> 00:03:01.685 How should you be thinking about change so 71 00:03:01.685 --> 00:03:03.285 that you can navigate it more easily? 72 00:03:04.385 --> 00:03:07.485 But also, most of the people on this session are project 73 00:03:07.485 --> 00:03:10.045 leaders or portfolio leaders, or transformation leaders. 74 00:03:10.105 --> 00:03:11.885 So you are leaders of change. 75 00:03:12.505 --> 00:03:15.765 So what should you be doing as leaders of change 76 00:03:15.865 --> 00:03:18.805 to help others get through the process? 77 00:03:19.825 --> 00:03:21.445 And then thirdly, what I hope we're gonna be able 78 00:03:21.445 --> 00:03:23.725 to do is weave in just a little bit of the perspective from 79 00:03:23.725 --> 00:03:25.765 that executive tier, right? 80 00:03:25.835 --> 00:03:27.885 What does it feel like as an executive 81 00:03:28.505 --> 00:03:30.125 to be navigating through change? 82 00:03:30.755 --> 00:03:33.885 Because, um, they don't get, you know, they, they're, 83 00:03:33.885 --> 00:03:36.925 they're making decisions in extreme uncertainty, conditions 84 00:03:36.925 --> 00:03:40.485 of extreme uncertainty, and yet they have to try 85 00:03:40.485 --> 00:03:44.805 and project clarity and direction 86 00:03:44.985 --> 00:03:46.205 and everything else so that, so 87 00:03:46.205 --> 00:03:48.125 that an organization can align behind that. 88 00:03:48.385 --> 00:03:50.485 And it's not easy. That's a difficult thing to do. 89 00:03:50.745 --> 00:03:52.165 So we, so we, if we've time, 90 00:03:52.165 --> 00:03:53.645 well weave some of that in as well. 91 00:03:55.795 --> 00:03:59.215 So, with that, Rebecca, I would like to invite you 92 00:03:59.755 --> 00:04:02.335 to introduce yourself a little bit in a more eloquent way 93 00:04:02.335 --> 00:04:04.135 than I have, uh, anyone, by the way, 94 00:04:04.135 --> 00:04:06.575 who's into 17th century opera singers. 95 00:04:06.575 --> 00:04:08.855 I think it was Rebecca, if you have any questions. 96 00:04:09.135 --> 00:04:10.135 18th. 18th. But whenever, 97 00:04:10.415 --> 00:04:11.415 18th century. Okay. 18th 98 00:04:11.415 --> 00:04:12.815 century, or they're gonna be 99 00:04:12.815 --> 00:04:13.935 Italian though, I'm afraid. 100 00:04:14.155 --> 00:04:16.055 So, 18th century Italian opera singers. 101 00:04:16.055 --> 00:04:17.815 If you have any questions on that front as well, 102 00:04:18.085 --> 00:04:19.655 love them into the chat, and we'll try 103 00:04:19.655 --> 00:04:20.855 and stump the chump later on. 104 00:04:22.555 --> 00:04:23.555 Go for it, Rebecca. 105 00:04:24.445 --> 00:04:27.615 Well, thank you, Stuart. This is, uh, just so much fun. 106 00:04:27.615 --> 00:04:28.935 I've been really looking forward to this, 107 00:04:29.235 --> 00:04:33.455 and I'm delighted to get to talk with your community today 108 00:04:33.715 --> 00:04:36.135 and hear from them about, you know, where they are. 109 00:04:36.875 --> 00:04:38.735 And also, I wanna just give you a shout out 110 00:04:38.735 --> 00:04:40.095 for the May newsletter that came out. 111 00:04:40.095 --> 00:04:43.335 It had some really cool, uh, connections and synergies, 112 00:04:43.335 --> 00:04:45.095 and the theme was very much what we're doing. 113 00:04:45.275 --> 00:04:47.575 So if you guys haven't seen that, it's awesome. 114 00:04:47.915 --> 00:04:51.335 So thank you. Uh, I'm gonna just do a little, like, 115 00:04:51.435 --> 00:04:54.415 you know, 10 minute kind of, uh, frame 116 00:04:54.675 --> 00:04:56.055 for our conversation a little. 117 00:04:56.115 --> 00:04:58.815 Uh, it'll bring up some concepts, some ideas, also 118 00:04:58.815 --> 00:05:00.895 to talk a little bit about where I came from 119 00:05:00.895 --> 00:05:03.575 and how I got this sort of change expert 120 00:05:03.595 --> 00:05:06.015 or change guru sort of thing going on. 121 00:05:06.435 --> 00:05:09.255 Um, so I'm gonna just share my screen really quickly, 122 00:05:09.715 --> 00:05:12.415 and we're gonna look at just a, you know, 123 00:05:12.415 --> 00:05:13.775 just have a little visual as I'm 124 00:05:13.775 --> 00:05:14.815 going through some of this stuff. 125 00:05:15.905 --> 00:05:17.445 All right, here we go. 126 00:05:19.845 --> 00:05:21.025 See if it's gonna do it. 127 00:05:21.405 --> 00:05:24.955 Got, It's just taking a sec. 128 00:05:25.375 --> 00:05:26.635 No, we can see it. You're 129 00:05:26.785 --> 00:05:27.785 Okay. Great. All 130 00:05:27.785 --> 00:05:30.155 right. So let's see here. 131 00:05:30.655 --> 00:05:34.555 So, by way of background, as Stuart said, I'm, um, the CEO 132 00:05:34.555 --> 00:05:38.275 of my, uh, consulting firm that's been around since 1991. 133 00:05:38.875 --> 00:05:41.595 I had a couple of jobs before I realized that 134 00:05:42.155 --> 00:05:44.195 I really liked change myself. 135 00:05:44.575 --> 00:05:47.235 So I realized being a consultant meant that I would get 136 00:05:47.255 --> 00:05:50.035 to do lots of different jobs over my career without looking 137 00:05:50.035 --> 00:05:51.435 like a flip exhibit. 138 00:05:51.735 --> 00:05:53.035 So that's why I became a consultant. 139 00:05:53.115 --> 00:05:55.075 I mean, it was that simple. And I, 140 00:05:55.085 --> 00:05:57.035 after, you know, a few years of kind of, 141 00:05:57.205 --> 00:05:59.405 I started in working with nonprofit organizations 142 00:05:59.605 --> 00:06:00.765 'cause that's where my jobs had been, 143 00:06:00.785 --> 00:06:02.445 I'd been an executive director in a, 144 00:06:02.505 --> 00:06:03.685 in an arts organization. 145 00:06:04.265 --> 00:06:07.605 But I started to realize that I was developing these sort 146 00:06:07.605 --> 00:06:09.365 of core competencies in my firm. 147 00:06:09.465 --> 00:06:12.005 One was leadership advancement, so really working 148 00:06:12.065 --> 00:06:13.605 to grow great leaders. 149 00:06:13.785 --> 00:06:16.485 So working with people, I think, you know, he said I'm a, 150 00:06:16.665 --> 00:06:19.045 you know, sort of executive, uh, whisperer. 151 00:06:19.325 --> 00:06:22.165 I do think that's right. I've spent my whole career working, 152 00:06:22.745 --> 00:06:24.605 you know, more or less with C-suite type folks, 153 00:06:25.265 --> 00:06:27.525 but also, you know, moving that down. 154 00:06:27.525 --> 00:06:28.685 Because the second thing 155 00:06:28.685 --> 00:06:32.125 that often I noticed was the reason great leaders were 156 00:06:32.125 --> 00:06:33.565 calling me and were, I mean, excuse me, 157 00:06:33.565 --> 00:06:34.725 the reason leaders were calling me 158 00:06:34.725 --> 00:06:36.165 and were feeling stumped was 159 00:06:36.165 --> 00:06:40.685 because they were facing something huge that was, uh, 160 00:06:40.875 --> 00:06:42.685 kind of insinuating that some sort 161 00:06:42.685 --> 00:06:43.365 of organizational 162 00:06:43.365 --> 00:06:44.965 transformation was going to need to happen. 163 00:06:45.465 --> 00:06:47.605 And I think they were feeling like, whoa, right. 164 00:06:47.965 --> 00:06:49.485 I need some help with that. And then three, 165 00:06:49.995 --> 00:06:52.685 when you're doing organizational transformation 166 00:06:52.685 --> 00:06:54.765 transformation, you've gotta get collaborative 167 00:06:54.995 --> 00:06:58.325 because one person at the top cannot see it all 168 00:06:58.585 --> 00:06:59.725 and doesn't know everything. 169 00:06:59.745 --> 00:07:02.165 And we've seen that the sort of the, um, 170 00:07:02.945 --> 00:07:05.845 the cata cata catastrophic results of 171 00:07:06.395 --> 00:07:09.085 C-Suite just thinking they know everything, right? 172 00:07:09.385 --> 00:07:13.245 And then implementing a change and it doesn't work, right? 173 00:07:13.385 --> 00:07:14.565 And there's all this pushback 174 00:07:14.585 --> 00:07:16.965 and it can even kill the organization. 175 00:07:16.965 --> 00:07:19.285 We've seen that. So these three things, 176 00:07:19.385 --> 00:07:21.005 So let's, let's, let's just pause there. 177 00:07:21.225 --> 00:07:23.565 So yeah, so give, give, give us a thumbs up, 178 00:07:23.565 --> 00:07:25.965 or a, actually, Mary's in there with an amen, right? 179 00:07:25.965 --> 00:07:27.965 Give us a, give us a quick thumbs up if, 180 00:07:28.065 --> 00:07:29.285 if that resonates with you. 181 00:07:29.445 --> 00:07:31.205 What, what Rebecca just said resonates. 182 00:07:31.405 --> 00:07:34.405 'cause that I, I hear that kind of thing all the time. 183 00:07:34.415 --> 00:07:35.805 There we go. Lots, lots 184 00:07:35.805 --> 00:07:37.525 of thumbs up kicking around that one. 185 00:07:38.625 --> 00:07:41.325 And, and what I think, uh, was happening a lot 186 00:07:41.325 --> 00:07:44.565 of times is the, that these leaders had maybe had a sense of 187 00:07:44.565 --> 00:07:47.325 what was happening, but they oughta also had a sense 188 00:07:47.325 --> 00:07:48.325 that they didn't have 189 00:07:48.345 --> 00:07:51.085 yet the capacity themselves to take it on. 190 00:07:51.145 --> 00:07:53.605 And so they, there was no language for this. 191 00:07:53.625 --> 00:07:54.805 You know, people would say, I think we 192 00:07:54.805 --> 00:07:55.845 need to do strategic planning. 193 00:07:55.915 --> 00:08:00.085 That was always a sign to me that, that something was afoot 194 00:08:00.085 --> 00:08:01.805 because they really didn't know what it was. 195 00:08:01.805 --> 00:08:03.685 So, strategic planning, right, is about looking 196 00:08:04.345 --> 00:08:06.045 at the, the terrain. 197 00:08:06.505 --> 00:08:10.565 So my job was to support these folks, these, these leaders 198 00:08:11.225 --> 00:08:15.525 in pretty much facing large, uh, large scale change, 199 00:08:15.525 --> 00:08:18.205 large scale reinvention type situations. 200 00:08:18.745 --> 00:08:21.645 Um, the, the other thing I wanna say though, is a core piece 201 00:08:21.645 --> 00:08:26.205 of my work was getting lasting solutions. 202 00:08:26.265 --> 00:08:28.885 And the only way you can do that is if you make sure 203 00:08:28.995 --> 00:08:31.725 that whatever is being done is aligned 204 00:08:32.185 --> 00:08:34.485 and works through the entire organization. 205 00:08:34.555 --> 00:08:37.085 Like I, what we were talking about when we first were 206 00:08:37.245 --> 00:08:39.165 planning this was the head cannot 207 00:08:39.185 --> 00:08:40.365 be separated from the body. 208 00:08:40.825 --> 00:08:44.245 So I was acting kind of like the neck, you know what I mean? 209 00:08:44.475 --> 00:08:46.485 Getting that flow up 210 00:08:46.485 --> 00:08:49.485 and down, you know, so that we can, that's 211 00:08:49.485 --> 00:08:51.165 what creates agility in an organization. 212 00:08:51.225 --> 00:08:52.765 So let me just move on. 213 00:08:53.505 --> 00:08:56.465 The first time I worked with Stewart, I was, 214 00:08:56.745 --> 00:08:59.545 I had been using, I had used some decision software before, 215 00:08:59.605 --> 00:09:00.705 and I really liked it. 216 00:09:00.785 --> 00:09:02.905 I was really blown away by what was possible with it. 217 00:09:03.205 --> 00:09:04.505 But I was looking for something new, 218 00:09:04.505 --> 00:09:07.505 something a little bit more agile, easier to use. 219 00:09:07.925 --> 00:09:10.825 And I had a federal government client that, uh, needed 220 00:09:10.825 --> 00:09:13.745 to prioritize projects across a two 221 00:09:13.745 --> 00:09:16.025 and a half million acre, uh, landscape 222 00:09:16.205 --> 00:09:17.825 of mixed jurisdictions. 223 00:09:17.825 --> 00:09:20.265 They weren't just dealing with their, you know, 224 00:09:20.265 --> 00:09:21.345 their stewardship land. 225 00:09:21.345 --> 00:09:24.625 They were dealing with private and industri industry stuff, 226 00:09:24.645 --> 00:09:26.785 and all kinds of different, uh, stakeholders. 227 00:09:26.805 --> 00:09:28.305 And that was very important. So 228 00:09:28.305 --> 00:09:30.225 that presented two primary challenges. 229 00:09:30.685 --> 00:09:32.425 Number one, we wanted to make sure 230 00:09:32.575 --> 00:09:35.865 that clear strategic outcomes were driving the 231 00:09:35.865 --> 00:09:39.065 prioritization, not just low hanging fruit, 232 00:09:39.155 --> 00:09:41.065 which is a very typical way, right? 233 00:09:41.085 --> 00:09:44.665 As you guys all know, to, to, uh, you know, choose projects. 234 00:09:44.665 --> 00:09:46.505 Something that's easy, something that's, you know, 235 00:09:46.605 --> 00:09:48.225 not too expensive, you know, whatever. 236 00:09:48.885 --> 00:09:52.065 Um, or the thing about in my backyard, like 237 00:09:52.655 --> 00:09:54.665 it's normally I don't want it in my backyard, 238 00:09:54.725 --> 00:09:57.665 but these treatment projects were about restoring land 239 00:09:57.765 --> 00:09:59.545 to prevent wildfire and other things. 240 00:09:59.925 --> 00:10:02.225 So people wanted them in their backyard. 241 00:10:02.725 --> 00:10:05.305 And so we had a lot of deep opinion 242 00:10:06.085 --> 00:10:08.465 and vested right interest in that. 243 00:10:08.525 --> 00:10:11.225 So managing that was clear, strategic 244 00:10:11.225 --> 00:10:13.225 and agreed upon outcomes was gonna be critical. 245 00:10:13.685 --> 00:10:16.185 The second one was involving hundreds 246 00:10:16.185 --> 00:10:17.825 of diverse individuals, some 247 00:10:17.825 --> 00:10:20.345 of whom were very deep SMEs on forestry 248 00:10:20.345 --> 00:10:22.025 and water chemistry and so on. 249 00:10:22.165 --> 00:10:24.105 And then there were other people that just, you know, 250 00:10:24.105 --> 00:10:25.305 were lay people who lived there 251 00:10:25.365 --> 00:10:27.665 and had, you know, sort of a, a, a, 252 00:10:27.665 --> 00:10:28.985 their hat in the ring, if you will. 253 00:10:29.605 --> 00:10:31.465 Um, the cool part was, uh, 254 00:10:31.775 --> 00:10:33.945 this was my first experience of working with Stewart. 255 00:10:34.445 --> 00:10:35.785 We had a gas, you know, 256 00:10:35.785 --> 00:10:37.545 it was really fun talking about everything. 257 00:10:37.605 --> 00:10:40.825 And I was really wanting a pushing for transparent choice 258 00:10:40.845 --> 00:10:44.585 to help me do that strategic alignment in integration. 259 00:10:44.605 --> 00:10:46.945 And so we came up with all kinds of cool, clever, 260 00:10:47.325 --> 00:10:50.905 and very efficient methods, um, using transparent choice, 261 00:10:50.925 --> 00:10:53.865 and were able to accomplish both of these objectives. 262 00:10:54.485 --> 00:10:56.505 Um, the other thing that was great, 263 00:10:56.605 --> 00:10:59.065 and anybody that's used transparent choice knows that 264 00:10:59.725 --> 00:11:02.665 our results were inclusive, they were clear, 265 00:11:03.095 --> 00:11:06.465 they were compellingly conveyed in cool graphics, 266 00:11:07.205 --> 00:11:11.465 and all of that made the priorities obvious at the end 267 00:11:11.465 --> 00:11:13.585 of this process, which was, it took time. 268 00:11:13.725 --> 00:11:16.505 I'm not saying this stuff is fast, but we had no pushback. 269 00:11:17.055 --> 00:11:19.505 Zero. It was unprecedented. 270 00:11:19.645 --> 00:11:21.985 So that was my first experience working with, 271 00:11:22.925 --> 00:11:24.985 And if I can jump in for a second, Rebecca, right? 272 00:11:25.175 --> 00:11:27.345 Yeah. So right away, we've, 273 00:11:27.345 --> 00:11:31.545 we've hooked into something about making change happen is 274 00:11:31.545 --> 00:11:34.585 that I think most people are not 275 00:11:35.225 --> 00:11:36.665 actually resistant to change. 276 00:11:37.095 --> 00:11:42.065 They're resistant to having change done to them, right? 277 00:11:42.125 --> 00:11:44.145 So if you take them on the journey with you, 278 00:11:44.525 --> 00:11:47.785 so they are part of the change, then actually 279 00:11:48.445 --> 00:11:49.465 we can deal with it, right? 280 00:11:49.465 --> 00:11:51.185 And I suspect we're gonna cover that later on. 281 00:11:51.185 --> 00:11:52.665 But that was a really, that was 282 00:11:52.725 --> 00:11:54.405 so clearly demonstrated on this, 283 00:11:54.405 --> 00:11:57.485 that involving people in the process meant 284 00:11:57.485 --> 00:11:59.365 that change wasn't being done to them. 285 00:12:00.145 --> 00:12:03.365 And they were list, they were hearing other people's points 286 00:12:03.365 --> 00:12:05.925 of view, not just sitting in their own little echo chamber, 287 00:12:06.385 --> 00:12:07.925 but they were hearing other people's point of view. 288 00:12:07.945 --> 00:12:10.045 So when they didn't get exactly what they wanted, they kind 289 00:12:10.045 --> 00:12:12.165 of understood why, right? And could go, 290 00:12:12.265 --> 00:12:13.965 That's, that makes sense, right? 291 00:12:14.105 --> 00:12:15.845 And they actually saw the benefits 292 00:12:15.865 --> 00:12:18.605 of doing it somewhere else for themselves. 293 00:12:19.315 --> 00:12:20.325 That was the cool part. 294 00:12:20.425 --> 00:12:23.325 It wasn't just like, oh, I'm being a nice guy or a nice gal. 295 00:12:23.675 --> 00:12:26.005 They were actually seeing, oh, if we do that first, 296 00:12:26.005 --> 00:12:27.725 that's gonna make my project easier 297 00:12:27.725 --> 00:12:28.805 when it comes into the queue. 298 00:12:28.985 --> 00:12:32.485 So yes, it was socializing, it was building understanding. 299 00:12:32.595 --> 00:12:35.285 It's what I called moving the change process 300 00:12:35.285 --> 00:12:38.165 through the entire system, not just at the top. 301 00:12:38.395 --> 00:12:39.845 Okay. So we'll get more to that for sure. 302 00:12:39.855 --> 00:12:40.765 We'll get to that. We'll get 303 00:12:40.765 --> 00:12:41.885 to that. Yeah. Keep going, keep going. 304 00:12:42.385 --> 00:12:44.045 So now, how did I start? 305 00:12:44.115 --> 00:12:46.245 When I first hung my shingle, I was not saying, 306 00:12:46.465 --> 00:12:47.725 Hey, I'm a change agent. 307 00:12:47.885 --> 00:12:49.085 I knew I liked it, 308 00:12:49.465 --> 00:12:51.805 but I didn't realize that that's actually what I was doing. 309 00:12:51.825 --> 00:12:54.005 It took me a while to discover that. 310 00:12:54.585 --> 00:12:57.605 Um, but these words that you're seeing on the screen were, 311 00:12:57.605 --> 00:13:01.725 have been on my website since the beginning for 30 years. 312 00:13:02.185 --> 00:13:05.165 So 30 years ago when I started this, I was noticing the pace 313 00:13:05.165 --> 00:13:08.405 and scale of change are continuing to increase. 314 00:13:08.785 --> 00:13:10.925 And I wanna talk about that very specifically. 315 00:13:11.545 --> 00:13:14.445 Um, I also have said that staying abreast 316 00:13:14.545 --> 00:13:16.925 of the change curve, that's exactly how I wrote it, 317 00:13:17.225 --> 00:13:18.605 is a highly evolved skill. 318 00:13:19.285 --> 00:13:20.745 And leaders must have it 319 00:13:20.745 --> 00:13:22.225 because why else do you have leaders? 320 00:13:22.365 --> 00:13:25.305 Unless they can move you through change 321 00:13:25.405 --> 00:13:26.465 and keep abreast of it. 322 00:13:26.565 --> 00:13:28.425 You know, if you're, if you're driving a car 323 00:13:28.425 --> 00:13:30.105 and you only look in front of the car, 324 00:13:30.105 --> 00:13:31.905 you're gonna hit something pretty soon, right? 325 00:13:32.365 --> 00:13:34.385 The leader is supposed to be, the driver is supposed 326 00:13:34.385 --> 00:13:36.025 to be looking out and looking, 327 00:13:36.285 --> 00:13:37.545 you know, using peripheral vision. 328 00:13:37.925 --> 00:13:39.705 So it's definitely a skill for leaders, 329 00:13:40.385 --> 00:13:43.365 but it is also a skill for the entire organization. 330 00:13:43.585 --> 00:13:45.765 And that is something I felt very strongly 331 00:13:45.775 --> 00:13:47.005 about from the get go. 332 00:13:47.585 --> 00:13:50.605 And then third, this particular skill 333 00:13:51.285 --> 00:13:53.445 I noticed was often the difference 334 00:13:53.795 --> 00:13:57.685 between average performance and extraordinary results. 335 00:13:58.145 --> 00:13:59.765 So that was a harbinger. 336 00:14:00.085 --> 00:14:03.845 I mean, I was a, actually a, a tenant of my work is 337 00:14:03.845 --> 00:14:06.045 that people would say to me, we got 338 00:14:06.185 --> 00:14:08.485 so much more than we ever thought was possible. 339 00:14:08.725 --> 00:14:09.965 I don't know how you did that. 340 00:14:10.425 --> 00:14:12.485 So I, I didn't either actually at the time, 341 00:14:12.545 --> 00:14:15.045 but I started to, you know, really think about that. 342 00:14:15.705 --> 00:14:19.045 Um, so I, I wanna say that I sort of realized 343 00:14:19.635 --> 00:14:21.845 that I was doing change, um, 344 00:14:22.345 --> 00:14:25.885 and that that was what I was particularly good at. 345 00:14:25.905 --> 00:14:27.125 So if I get a call from somebody, 346 00:14:27.465 --> 00:14:29.765 and I would say, you know, if you just wanna move pieces 347 00:14:29.785 --> 00:14:31.485 around the board, if that's all 348 00:14:31.485 --> 00:14:33.125 that's needed, you don't need me. 349 00:14:33.465 --> 00:14:35.845 But if you need to question the board itself, 350 00:14:37.165 --> 00:14:38.425 that's my work, right? 351 00:14:38.445 --> 00:14:41.585 So I started to get that about, about my concentration. 352 00:14:42.085 --> 00:14:43.185 Um, and so what do I mean 353 00:14:43.185 --> 00:14:45.025 by large scale change or reinvention? 354 00:14:45.105 --> 00:14:48.825 I think we've all known when an organization hits some kind 355 00:14:48.825 --> 00:14:52.125 of major world force or, you know, technology trend 356 00:14:52.125 --> 00:14:53.725 or something, that means they're gonna have 357 00:14:53.725 --> 00:14:55.565 to really look at their business model, 358 00:14:55.565 --> 00:14:56.885 product line, whatever it is. 359 00:14:57.875 --> 00:14:59.805 Also though, there I was working with a lot 360 00:14:59.805 --> 00:15:02.525 of government clients that were in charge of sort 361 00:15:02.525 --> 00:15:04.045 of setting the frame 362 00:15:04.425 --> 00:15:06.565 for large areas in natural resource 363 00:15:06.565 --> 00:15:08.045 management, in it, et cetera. 364 00:15:08.425 --> 00:15:11.005 And so they were having to really push 365 00:15:11.575 --> 00:15:14.525 brand new policy law regulation, right? 366 00:15:14.745 --> 00:15:17.725 So it was both an internal kind of change 367 00:15:17.795 --> 00:15:19.005 that was the reinvention, 368 00:15:19.305 --> 00:15:22.205 or it was something that was gonna be pushed out to, 369 00:15:22.305 --> 00:15:23.765 you know, guide a whole bunch of people. 370 00:15:23.825 --> 00:15:26.605 So these were very large projects, um, 371 00:15:26.715 --> 00:15:29.565 that were very complex, involving lots of moving pieces. 372 00:15:30.345 --> 00:15:32.685 Um, so let's see. 373 00:15:32.805 --> 00:15:34.045 I wanna make sure, yeah, 374 00:15:34.185 --> 00:15:37.325 so I wanna make sure I was very clear that it was very clear 375 00:15:37.325 --> 00:15:39.205 to me from the beginning that you couldn't just have 376 00:15:39.205 --> 00:15:40.845 that change agility 377 00:15:41.345 --> 00:15:43.965 nor that strategic viewpoint just at the top, 378 00:15:44.515 --> 00:15:48.965 because the, the strategic plan needs to be owned 379 00:15:48.985 --> 00:15:53.885 by everybody because it provides a strategic map of where 380 00:15:53.905 --> 00:15:55.045 of what you're dealing with. 381 00:15:55.335 --> 00:15:57.685 First of all, if you have no map, right, 382 00:15:57.835 --> 00:15:59.485 it's gonna be very difficult to make a change 383 00:15:59.485 --> 00:16:01.485 because you don't know where you are, right? 384 00:16:01.585 --> 00:16:03.965 So the strategic plan is that map, right? 385 00:16:04.865 --> 00:16:08.165 If it's only for the top, they'll say, well, we need 386 00:16:08.165 --> 00:16:10.405 to make a change over here and do it right away. 387 00:16:10.465 --> 00:16:11.605 And, and here's how. 388 00:16:11.865 --> 00:16:15.845 And the people that are in that area, they don't see it, 389 00:16:16.275 --> 00:16:17.285 they don't understand it. 390 00:16:17.285 --> 00:16:18.805 So it just feels sort of like an attack, 391 00:16:18.805 --> 00:16:19.925 like change is happening to them. 392 00:16:19.945 --> 00:16:23.525 As, as Stewart said. So when I was doing strategic plans, 393 00:16:24.045 --> 00:16:26.485 I was engaging the entire system, 394 00:16:27.425 --> 00:16:29.805 and that's why TC was so transparent. 395 00:16:29.805 --> 00:16:33.165 Choice was so important, because at first when these tools 396 00:16:33.165 --> 00:16:34.925 didn't exist, I was doing it all myself. 397 00:16:35.205 --> 00:16:37.525 I mean, it was intense work doing that. 398 00:16:37.625 --> 00:16:40.045 All right, so lemme just move to this, uh, last one so 399 00:16:40.045 --> 00:16:41.045 that we can, um, 400 00:16:42.155 --> 00:16:44.245 move into our more interactive conversation. 401 00:16:44.825 --> 00:16:47.845 So, uh, it was about, I think about 2013 402 00:16:48.275 --> 00:16:50.925 that I finally really started to say, all right, 403 00:16:51.185 --> 00:16:54.045 if I'm gonna, how can I make this, this thing 404 00:16:54.045 --> 00:16:55.405 that I do and that I use? 405 00:16:55.405 --> 00:16:58.885 And it's very effective in across all kinds 406 00:16:58.905 --> 00:17:00.245 of content and context. 407 00:17:01.005 --> 00:17:02.645 I worked in every subject matter. 408 00:17:02.665 --> 00:17:05.525 And my clients would say, have you ever done it before? 409 00:17:05.525 --> 00:17:07.485 Have you ever done fire stuff before? 410 00:17:07.485 --> 00:17:08.525 Have you ever done water? 411 00:17:08.785 --> 00:17:11.725 And I'd be like, well, no, but I've done things similar. 412 00:17:12.505 --> 00:17:15.845 Um, but I realized the content really was not that relevant 413 00:17:15.845 --> 00:17:17.485 because I was using something else. 414 00:17:17.945 --> 00:17:21.405 So I started to ask myself, what is it that I'm using 415 00:17:21.635 --> 00:17:24.725 that makes this easier and makes for greater results? 416 00:17:25.275 --> 00:17:28.205 Well, I came to the realization that what I was working 417 00:17:28.205 --> 00:17:30.645 with was something I refer to as the change process. 418 00:17:31.645 --> 00:17:34.965 I don't mean how we react to change, that's very, 419 00:17:35.115 --> 00:17:37.725 very different across people, right? 420 00:17:37.725 --> 00:17:39.685 There's changes in our own lives that we love 421 00:17:40.185 --> 00:17:41.965 and change, that we dread, right? 422 00:17:42.385 --> 00:17:47.045 So if you use our reaction to change to understand it, 423 00:17:47.045 --> 00:17:48.285 you're gonna, it's gonna be really 424 00:17:48.285 --> 00:17:49.885 confusing and very variable. 425 00:17:50.265 --> 00:17:54.645 So I started to notice the change, like climate moves 426 00:17:54.645 --> 00:17:58.895 through a sequence of very specific stages 427 00:17:59.285 --> 00:18:02.095 that have indicators that are common across content 428 00:18:02.235 --> 00:18:04.615 and context, whether you like the change or don't. 429 00:18:04.955 --> 00:18:06.735 And it was, that's what I was using. 430 00:18:07.275 --> 00:18:08.735 So I was helping my clients. 431 00:18:08.935 --> 00:18:09.935 I didn't teach this to them 432 00:18:09.935 --> 00:18:11.695 because I didn't have any language for it at the time. 433 00:18:12.035 --> 00:18:15.695 But what I did is I helped them to align with what part 434 00:18:15.695 --> 00:18:17.495 of the change process they were in. 435 00:18:17.925 --> 00:18:20.295 Just like the farmer doesn't plant in winter. 436 00:18:20.595 --> 00:18:22.015 If the farmers in North America, 437 00:18:22.155 --> 00:18:23.735 that's a very bad idea, right? 438 00:18:23.735 --> 00:18:26.615 And we all know that if you don't align with the seasons, 439 00:18:26.955 --> 00:18:30.615 or, you know, you wear a fur coat on the beach in June, 440 00:18:31.235 --> 00:18:32.335 you're gonna be uncomfortable. 441 00:18:32.395 --> 00:18:34.175 So we know that about, about climate, 442 00:18:34.635 --> 00:18:35.975 but with change we don't. 443 00:18:36.475 --> 00:18:41.215 So I realized this was like change, GPS, you know, 444 00:18:41.215 --> 00:18:42.775 we could figure out where are we in it, 445 00:18:42.845 --> 00:18:45.055 what is the stage asking of us? 446 00:18:45.595 --> 00:18:47.295 And when we start aligning with it, 447 00:18:47.795 --> 00:18:49.215 it became so much easier. 448 00:18:49.795 --> 00:18:53.695 And all the energy that had been going to resisting change, 449 00:18:53.695 --> 00:18:54.895 whether intentionally 450 00:18:54.915 --> 00:18:59.295 or not, could now be go into working with change. 451 00:18:59.915 --> 00:19:01.895 That's why we were getting incredible results, 452 00:19:02.965 --> 00:19:04.255 that it was that simple. 453 00:19:04.675 --> 00:19:08.655 So I basically invented a model for something 454 00:19:08.655 --> 00:19:09.735 that is not new. 455 00:19:09.915 --> 00:19:13.495 The change process happens all the time to everything as ch 456 00:19:13.515 --> 00:19:16.535 as, uh, Stewart put in, uh, some of the posts, 457 00:19:16.595 --> 00:19:17.735 change is a constant. 458 00:19:17.885 --> 00:19:19.175 It's the only thing that's constant, 459 00:19:19.575 --> 00:19:20.735 constant hair colitis said that. 460 00:19:21.115 --> 00:19:23.455 So it's been, we've known this for a long time, right? 461 00:19:23.555 --> 00:19:25.535 But we are a little slow on the uptake on how 462 00:19:25.535 --> 00:19:26.695 to, how to work with it. 463 00:19:27.155 --> 00:19:29.495 So, um, so anyway, so the, the threshold 464 00:19:29.495 --> 00:19:31.855 of change is a four stage process 465 00:19:31.925 --> 00:19:33.935 that is iterative when we go round and round. 466 00:19:34.315 --> 00:19:35.895 And being able to know where you are, 467 00:19:35.895 --> 00:19:37.655 where any particular situation in, 468 00:19:38.155 --> 00:19:40.735 in it makes it much easier to deal with. 469 00:19:41.275 --> 00:19:43.655 So I just will say, there's a book on this. 470 00:19:43.765 --> 00:19:46.135 It's out right now. Thresholds of change, 471 00:19:46.625 --> 00:19:48.335 audiobooks coming, if you like those. 472 00:19:48.795 --> 00:19:50.575 And then also you can, you know, I'd love 473 00:19:50.575 --> 00:19:52.135 to support people in, in this work. 474 00:19:52.235 --> 00:19:54.815 So that's all I'll say. And now we can move on. 475 00:19:55.495 --> 00:19:58.465 Awesome. Awesome. So, um, that's fantastic. 476 00:19:58.655 --> 00:20:02.065 Good, good intro. Good, good starter for 10, as they say. 477 00:20:02.125 --> 00:20:03.225 The Brits will know what that means. 478 00:20:03.805 --> 00:20:07.985 Um, so Ashock has fallen for your, your little bait there. 479 00:20:08.255 --> 00:20:09.745 He's already asked what liminal means. 480 00:20:09.805 --> 00:20:11.345 So we'll get to that ashock, I promise. 481 00:20:12.125 --> 00:20:16.265 Um, uh, before we do, just really quickly, right? 482 00:20:16.285 --> 00:20:19.265 So most of the people on, in, on this webinar 483 00:20:20.165 --> 00:20:23.385 are in the business of making change happen projects, 484 00:20:23.385 --> 00:20:26.065 transformation, that kind of thing, right? 485 00:20:26.165 --> 00:20:30.025 So, so the feeling out there is that, you know, 486 00:20:30.025 --> 00:20:31.865 change is just coming faster and faster and faster. 487 00:20:32.725 --> 00:20:36.225 Um, the nature of that change is itself changing. 488 00:20:36.965 --> 00:20:41.425 Um, the, the, the pace is changing, the complexities 489 00:20:41.525 --> 00:20:42.985 of change is increasing. 490 00:20:44.045 --> 00:20:47.765 Um, so, so is that, is that just, it, 491 00:20:47.835 --> 00:20:49.165 doesn't everybody always feel that? 492 00:20:49.185 --> 00:20:51.245 Or is that real, do you think? 493 00:20:52.495 --> 00:20:53.985 Yeah, I'm glad you asked that. 494 00:20:54.255 --> 00:20:55.505 Like I said, 30 years ago, 495 00:20:55.625 --> 00:20:56.945 I was talking about pace and scale. 496 00:20:57.995 --> 00:21:00.325 What I started to, when I, when I've been teaching this, 497 00:21:00.345 --> 00:21:02.285 now, I'm just starting to, to get into this more. 498 00:21:02.525 --> 00:21:07.385 I looked at some statistics about pace pa the pace 499 00:21:07.385 --> 00:21:08.705 of change is increasing. 500 00:21:08.765 --> 00:21:10.545 And the reason is technology, right? 501 00:21:10.545 --> 00:21:12.745 If you think how long it took us to invent the wheel 502 00:21:12.845 --> 00:21:15.905 as humanity, and then the distance between the wheel 503 00:21:15.905 --> 00:21:17.505 and the printing press, right? 504 00:21:17.525 --> 00:21:19.185 So the wheel was like this, right? 505 00:21:19.415 --> 00:21:20.585 Then the printing wheel 506 00:21:20.585 --> 00:21:22.585 and printing press, now we've got changes, boom, 507 00:21:22.585 --> 00:21:23.705 boom, boom, boom, boom. 508 00:21:24.045 --> 00:21:25.945 And they're, they're just exploding. 509 00:21:25.945 --> 00:21:28.705 Like, the internet exploded us. But now look at ai, right? 510 00:21:29.165 --> 00:21:30.465 So you are not wrong. 511 00:21:30.465 --> 00:21:32.185 If you think the pace of change is increasing, 512 00:21:32.565 --> 00:21:33.745 it definitely is. 513 00:21:34.445 --> 00:21:37.065 The other aspect of why change feels like 514 00:21:37.065 --> 00:21:38.345 change to the fourth power. 515 00:21:38.485 --> 00:21:41.545 As, as, uh, Stewart mentioned in his newsletter today 516 00:21:41.925 --> 00:21:42.945 is ubiquity. 517 00:21:43.495 --> 00:21:46.145 It's everywhere. Now, why is that? 518 00:21:46.445 --> 00:21:48.105 Change has always been everywhere. 519 00:21:48.285 --> 00:21:50.785 Always everything changes every part of life. 520 00:21:51.045 --> 00:21:54.225 But technology is also helping us be aware of it. 521 00:21:54.885 --> 00:21:56.305 We hear about it on the internet, 522 00:21:56.325 --> 00:21:58.105 we hear about it in news, we see it on social media. 523 00:21:58.105 --> 00:21:59.785 We're hear, you know, it's just constantly, 524 00:22:00.485 --> 00:22:01.825 humans are barrage 525 00:22:01.965 --> 00:22:04.665 by change happening all over the place all the time. 526 00:22:05.405 --> 00:22:09.785 The third aspect of why change feels more is scale, right? 527 00:22:10.095 --> 00:22:14.265 That we are, we have reached a place also, I think 528 00:22:14.265 --> 00:22:18.065 because of technology that we were built to change ourselves 529 00:22:18.685 --> 00:22:20.665 and our little situations, right? 530 00:22:20.765 --> 00:22:24.745 So our families, our little jobs for, for millennia humans 531 00:22:25.605 --> 00:22:28.385 had a little sphere of what they were good at in terms 532 00:22:28.385 --> 00:22:30.345 of managing change or dealing with change. 533 00:22:30.805 --> 00:22:33.265 Now all of a sudden, we are aware of 534 00:22:33.285 --> 00:22:36.785 and struck by scales of change that are global. 535 00:22:36.875 --> 00:22:38.425 We're all dealing with, uh, 536 00:22:38.425 --> 00:22:39.985 global environmental change, right? 537 00:22:39.985 --> 00:22:41.665 Impacts and the ideas of it. 538 00:22:42.125 --> 00:22:45.585 Um, and so our little muscle for dealing 539 00:22:45.615 --> 00:22:49.225 with change is not necessarily built 540 00:22:49.765 --> 00:22:50.945 for dealing with the scale. 541 00:22:51.405 --> 00:22:54.505 So I think it's those three, those three aspects 542 00:22:54.535 --> 00:22:56.265 that make change so much harder. 543 00:22:56.405 --> 00:23:00.145 And why I felt it was so important to write this book so 544 00:23:00.145 --> 00:23:02.785 that I could help people more to deal 545 00:23:02.785 --> 00:23:03.905 with the process of change. 546 00:23:04.125 --> 00:23:06.545 We need to build our muscu musculature more. So, 547 00:23:06.545 --> 00:23:08.305 So a question for the audience then, right? 548 00:23:08.405 --> 00:23:10.305 So, you know, jump into chat 549 00:23:10.405 --> 00:23:12.705 and just give me a a, yeah, 550 00:23:13.445 --> 00:23:18.225 if you feel like change is a little overwhelming, 551 00:23:18.605 --> 00:23:21.345 if it just all feels a bit too much sometimes, 552 00:23:21.485 --> 00:23:25.025 not all the time, but sometimes I'm gonna put my own hand up 553 00:23:25.025 --> 00:23:28.505 and say absolutely all the time. 554 00:23:29.365 --> 00:23:33.305 Um, so just drop, drop, drop something in. Yeah, sometimes. 555 00:23:33.445 --> 00:23:36.465 Thanks, Ashak. Uh, anyone else willing to admit it? 556 00:23:36.625 --> 00:23:38.385 'cause I know you wouldn't be here if you didn't feel 557 00:23:38.385 --> 00:23:39.465 like that sometimes, right? 558 00:23:40.085 --> 00:23:44.465 Um, so, uh, there we go. Nice one J. Yeah, good one, Kevin. 559 00:23:45.465 --> 00:23:47.445 Um, yeah, absolutely. 560 00:23:47.505 --> 00:23:51.125 So, so the first message I think is you are not alone. 561 00:23:51.395 --> 00:23:54.485 This is normal. Everyone feels like this. It's real. 562 00:23:54.655 --> 00:23:56.405 There is a lot of change out there. 563 00:23:57.225 --> 00:24:00.525 And, um, figuring out how to deal with it is, is one 564 00:24:00.525 --> 00:24:03.125 of the key challenges of our time. 565 00:24:03.705 --> 00:24:07.165 Um, so, you know, this is, this is a good time to, 566 00:24:07.425 --> 00:24:08.445 to dive into this. 567 00:24:08.945 --> 00:24:10.805 So, so Rebecca, here's one of the, 568 00:24:11.225 --> 00:24:12.325 so here's a quick question, right? 569 00:24:12.325 --> 00:24:15.045 Change comes in so many different guises, right? 570 00:24:15.185 --> 00:24:16.205 So, so many different types. 571 00:24:16.205 --> 00:24:17.725 There's technology change, there's organizational 572 00:24:17.725 --> 00:24:18.845 change, there's change at home. 573 00:24:20.725 --> 00:24:23.065 Is there, are there any sort of common threads 574 00:24:23.065 --> 00:24:27.025 and themes that you have seen that, that sort 575 00:24:27.025 --> 00:24:28.025 of tie them all together? 576 00:24:28.985 --> 00:24:31.435 Well, that's exactly what the change process does. 577 00:24:31.865 --> 00:24:35.475 It's the underlying process that's under all change, 578 00:24:35.535 --> 00:24:36.915 no matter what scale, what it's about. 579 00:24:37.255 --> 00:24:39.435 That's what enabled me to go into organization 580 00:24:39.435 --> 00:24:42.355 after organization, dealing with very different content, 581 00:24:43.265 --> 00:24:45.555 very often, very complex content, 582 00:24:46.215 --> 00:24:49.635 and still be able to see the way through, right? 583 00:24:49.635 --> 00:24:52.315 Because I was using this underlying change process. 584 00:24:52.575 --> 00:24:53.795 It is what is common. 585 00:24:56.735 --> 00:24:59.105 Yeah, a absolutely. So I'm reading the, the comments. 586 00:24:59.215 --> 00:25:01.865 Well, me too, yeah. While listening. Um, yeah. 587 00:25:02.005 --> 00:25:05.905 So I, I think that's, I I love, I I love, uh, actually, Joe, 588 00:25:05.985 --> 00:25:07.625 I love what you said there, which is that you have 589 00:25:07.625 --> 00:25:08.785 to learn how to handle the change. 590 00:25:09.365 --> 00:25:11.505 And part of that is about learning how to handle yourself, 591 00:25:12.365 --> 00:25:15.345 but also, um, you know, one of the things that I, I, 592 00:25:15.425 --> 00:25:16.665 I liked in the book is that you've sort 593 00:25:16.665 --> 00:25:18.905 of broken it down into, into stages. 594 00:25:19.045 --> 00:25:23.105 And we're gonna get into that liminal thing in a second. 595 00:25:23.965 --> 00:25:26.745 Um, and, and I've gotta warn you guys, just, 596 00:25:26.755 --> 00:25:28.105 there may be a little bit, bit 597 00:25:28.105 --> 00:25:29.865 of geeking out at some point here. 598 00:25:30.335 --> 00:25:33.145 Rebecca and I are both a little bit nerdy, a little bit kind 599 00:25:33.145 --> 00:25:34.785 of intellectual at times, whether 600 00:25:34.785 --> 00:25:35.905 that's good or bad, I don't know. 601 00:25:36.605 --> 00:25:39.945 But let's put it this way, when I, when I found that word, 602 00:25:39.945 --> 00:25:42.705 the first thing I did was jump onto the online dictionaries, 603 00:25:43.025 --> 00:25:45.545 discover that different dictionaries had very different 604 00:25:45.545 --> 00:25:46.545 definitions of the word. 605 00:25:47.445 --> 00:25:49.625 And so then dived into the etymology 606 00:25:49.685 --> 00:25:51.105 and the root of where it came from 607 00:25:51.105 --> 00:25:52.145 and all that kind of good stuff. 608 00:25:52.245 --> 00:25:53.825 So we were gonna get to liminal. 609 00:25:53.825 --> 00:25:55.265 If you don't know what it means, don't worry. 610 00:25:55.265 --> 00:25:58.225 Neither did I, um, we're gonna get there. 611 00:25:58.365 --> 00:26:00.905 But talk to us about the different stages, 612 00:26:01.045 --> 00:26:03.545 the different phases of change, 613 00:26:04.805 --> 00:26:05.805 Right? So, 614 00:26:05.805 --> 00:26:08.315 just like I said, you know, uh, climate moves 615 00:26:08.315 --> 00:26:10.475 through the seasons, change moves through stages. 616 00:26:10.615 --> 00:26:13.595 And I was really feeling those over every 617 00:26:13.595 --> 00:26:14.835 project for years and years. 618 00:26:14.835 --> 00:26:16.635 And it took me a while to bring it 619 00:26:16.755 --> 00:26:19.235 to my conscious mind and to create a model. 620 00:26:19.235 --> 00:26:21.075 And I love creating models for stuff that I'm, 621 00:26:21.235 --> 00:26:22.555 I am kind of a geek that way. 622 00:26:23.135 --> 00:26:25.315 So when people would bring me in, 623 00:26:25.335 --> 00:26:26.715 it was usually an instigation. 624 00:26:26.715 --> 00:26:27.715 That's the first stage. 625 00:26:27.775 --> 00:26:31.355 So how do we recognize instigation in any change situation? 626 00:26:31.665 --> 00:26:33.115 Something that has worked 627 00:26:33.415 --> 00:26:35.755 or something that was stable is no longer. 628 00:26:36.345 --> 00:26:38.275 It's as simple as that. You go out, you try to start, 629 00:26:38.275 --> 00:26:39.595 your car doesn't, it doesn't start, 630 00:26:39.615 --> 00:26:41.715 and you're like, uhoh, what's going on here? 631 00:26:41.715 --> 00:26:44.285 Right? So it can be something small, you know, 632 00:26:44.285 --> 00:26:46.165 you might get on the scale and be like, whoops, 633 00:26:46.345 --> 00:26:47.405 gained some weight, right? 634 00:26:47.405 --> 00:26:48.485 Or lost some weight, or whatever. 635 00:26:48.505 --> 00:26:49.805 So it can be small like that, 636 00:26:49.985 --> 00:26:51.765 or it can be new organization 637 00:26:54.605 --> 00:26:56.445 I was talking specifically yet, Stuart. 638 00:26:56.445 --> 00:26:57.485 Exactly. Um, 639 00:26:57.785 --> 00:26:59.605 or it can be something big in your organization, 640 00:26:59.705 --> 00:27:01.765 and it might be something that happens one day 641 00:27:01.765 --> 00:27:04.005 and it's catastrophic, so you know, 642 00:27:04.305 --> 00:27:06.925 you're in it fast, or it can be subtle. 643 00:27:07.185 --> 00:27:08.765 It can be things that happen over time. 644 00:27:08.825 --> 00:27:12.045 So you're kind of watching for, did this thing 645 00:27:12.045 --> 00:27:15.205 that happened, this event, is it actually repeating? 646 00:27:15.205 --> 00:27:16.565 So it's becoming a trend. 647 00:27:16.985 --> 00:27:20.245 So instigation is very much for noticing. 648 00:27:20.745 --> 00:27:23.805 Now, if you don't have any kind of a strategic map 649 00:27:23.805 --> 00:27:25.765 for your organization, nobody's sort 650 00:27:25.765 --> 00:27:28.605 of keeping their eye out on the road, it's gonna be harder 651 00:27:28.605 --> 00:27:31.915 for you to notice these, these signs 652 00:27:31.975 --> 00:27:33.475 of instigation happening, right? 653 00:27:33.725 --> 00:27:36.995 Makes perfect sense. So that's why a lot of people, 654 00:27:37.305 --> 00:27:40.595 individuals, and organizations feel broadsided. 655 00:27:41.115 --> 00:27:42.195 I didn't see that coming. 656 00:27:42.615 --> 00:27:46.635 And I'll go in and say, you know, let's look back and see. 657 00:27:46.935 --> 00:27:50.315 And they'll actually, in retrospect, be able to see some 658 00:27:50.315 --> 00:27:51.515 of the, the signs of change. 659 00:27:51.935 --> 00:27:53.795 So noticing is a huge faculty. 660 00:27:54.015 --> 00:27:56.475 And also the other thing is not 661 00:27:57.315 --> 00:27:59.835 thinking we know exactly what those signs mean. 662 00:28:00.495 --> 00:28:04.275 We have to belay our sense of, I got this, I know 663 00:28:04.275 --> 00:28:07.275 what this is, because that's often reductive of 664 00:28:07.425 --> 00:28:09.435 what these signs are actually showing us. 665 00:28:09.815 --> 00:28:10.915 So, I mean, I could go on 666 00:28:10.915 --> 00:28:12.075 and on about this, so I don't want to, 667 00:28:12.375 --> 00:28:15.155 but instigation is where I was often brought in, 668 00:28:15.155 --> 00:28:18.155 because what is, what the next threshold is into 669 00:28:18.155 --> 00:28:19.235 what I call the liminal. 670 00:28:19.615 --> 00:28:21.715 Now, why did I name it such a kind 671 00:28:21.715 --> 00:28:23.875 of unusual use, such an unusual word? 672 00:28:24.055 --> 00:28:26.315 Number one, I wanted to call attention to it, 673 00:28:26.335 --> 00:28:29.035 and I knew that if I used a word that was well known, 674 00:28:29.415 --> 00:28:31.155 people would go, oh, yeah, I got that. 675 00:28:31.495 --> 00:28:34.715 And I don't think we got that in, particularly in Western, 676 00:28:35.015 --> 00:28:36.595 you know, European cultures. 677 00:28:37.135 --> 00:28:40.715 Uh, we tend to be a bit on the analytical side 678 00:28:40.775 --> 00:28:41.835 and think we know everything, 679 00:28:41.835 --> 00:28:44.075 especially once we reach a certain level of our career, 680 00:28:44.075 --> 00:28:45.675 certain educational, right? 681 00:28:45.695 --> 00:28:47.115 And the whole point of change 682 00:28:47.735 --> 00:28:49.835 is we're going into something we don't know. 683 00:28:50.455 --> 00:28:53.395 And there's a reason for that change is the agent 684 00:28:53.495 --> 00:28:54.995 of our growth and our learning. 685 00:28:55.535 --> 00:28:58.515 So by definition, we have to go into something 686 00:28:59.135 --> 00:29:03.585 that we don't know, and leaders, especially execs saying, 687 00:29:04.135 --> 00:29:05.585 whoa, I really don't know. 688 00:29:05.885 --> 00:29:07.665 That's a scary place to start. 689 00:29:08.045 --> 00:29:09.825 But it's a really important one 690 00:29:09.855 --> 00:29:11.625 because that's where the growth 691 00:29:12.205 --> 00:29:14.185 and the opening starts to happen. 692 00:29:14.685 --> 00:29:17.145 So I use the term liminal. 693 00:29:17.415 --> 00:29:20.345 It's from the Latin word for threshold. 694 00:29:20.905 --> 00:29:22.065 Lyman means threshold 695 00:29:22.065 --> 00:29:23.545 or lemon, maybe is how you pronounce it. 696 00:29:23.565 --> 00:29:27.595 I'm not sure. So I it's also used in anthropo in 697 00:29:27.595 --> 00:29:30.235 anthropology by anthropologists 698 00:29:30.335 --> 00:29:33.515 to describe the state in a rite of passage, right? 699 00:29:33.515 --> 00:29:35.235 Maybe from adolescence to adulthood, 700 00:29:35.865 --> 00:29:38.795 when the individual is neither one nor the other. 701 00:29:38.975 --> 00:29:40.835 And you all who are parents understand 702 00:29:41.040 --> 00:29:42.885 how painful that period is. 703 00:29:42.885 --> 00:29:45.805 They're not children anymore, but they're not adults either. 704 00:29:46.185 --> 00:29:47.525 We call those the teenage years. 705 00:29:47.825 --> 00:29:50.405 So in the old, you know, all of the old cultures, 706 00:29:50.415 --> 00:29:55.245 there were rituals to support that transition, right? 707 00:29:55.705 --> 00:29:58.805 And that was really smart because the liminal is 708 00:29:58.845 --> 00:30:00.045 a time of confusion. 709 00:30:00.305 --> 00:30:03.165 The, I know mine doesn't know what's going on, really. 710 00:30:03.235 --> 00:30:05.045 It's new to it. So we can freak out. 711 00:30:05.425 --> 00:30:08.445 And depending upon your comfort with not knowing, 712 00:30:09.525 --> 00:30:12.025 that's probably dictating your reaction to change, right? 713 00:30:12.125 --> 00:30:13.585 So that's the liminal. 714 00:30:13.585 --> 00:30:15.425 The liminal is actually a space of 715 00:30:16.265 --> 00:30:20.105 actually receiving what's going on as opposed to initiating. 716 00:30:20.365 --> 00:30:23.545 And that's very difficult in business to find ways 717 00:30:23.845 --> 00:30:26.185 to get people into more of a receptive mode. 718 00:30:26.735 --> 00:30:29.825 Frankly, the easiest way I found is strategic planning, 719 00:30:30.055 --> 00:30:32.705 because you bring people out of their normal moments, 720 00:30:32.755 --> 00:30:35.865 their normal day-to-day, you put them in a space that's sort 721 00:30:35.865 --> 00:30:38.145 of, you know, this, this special little container 722 00:30:38.435 --> 00:30:39.865 where they do strategic planning. 723 00:30:40.005 --> 00:30:43.385 And my strategic planning is simply asking questions 724 00:30:43.525 --> 00:30:45.465 of leaders, and they have to talk about it 725 00:30:45.485 --> 00:30:46.945 and answer them together. 726 00:30:47.525 --> 00:30:51.225 And that often opens right them to whole new, uh, you know, 727 00:30:51.245 --> 00:30:52.625 uh, ideas and revelations. 728 00:30:52.965 --> 00:30:55.145 So after we're in the liminal for 729 00:30:55.145 --> 00:30:56.265 what, do you want me to stop there? 730 00:30:56.455 --> 00:30:58.585 Yeah, no, no, I'm, I was gonna jump in before we, 731 00:30:58.585 --> 00:31:00.625 before we get into the, the, the next couple of stages. 732 00:31:00.725 --> 00:31:03.025 Yep, yep, yep. There, there's a couple of comments in the, 733 00:31:03.045 --> 00:31:05.425 in the chat, which I think we could, we can throw in here. 734 00:31:05.485 --> 00:31:07.465 So, so Mary was sort of saying, you know, good 735 00:31:07.465 --> 00:31:08.985 with most change, but 736 00:31:08.985 --> 00:31:11.665 what I don't like is essentially when change is done to you, 737 00:31:11.765 --> 00:31:15.425 so arbitrary, arbitrary looking decisions are handed down. 738 00:31:16.165 --> 00:31:19.505 Um, there's lack of process, lack of inclusion, lack 739 00:31:19.505 --> 00:31:22.465 of information gathering, all that kinda good stuff, right? 740 00:31:22.645 --> 00:31:23.865 Uh, so, so there's that. 741 00:31:23.925 --> 00:31:26.225 And then, and so that's an interesting point. 742 00:31:26.365 --> 00:31:28.345 And I think it underlines what you were just saying 743 00:31:28.915 --> 00:31:31.865 about both the instigation and that liminal phase, right? 744 00:31:32.725 --> 00:31:34.425 Is we need to be listening. 745 00:31:34.845 --> 00:31:36.225 Um, then, 746 00:31:36.405 --> 00:31:38.265 and then Ashok asked the question, 747 00:31:38.565 --> 00:31:42.665 is change is change known at the start or evolves as we go? 748 00:31:43.285 --> 00:31:47.585 And the answer by definition is a little bit of both. 749 00:31:48.875 --> 00:31:51.975 It, you know, it, you, you start off knowing 750 00:31:51.975 --> 00:31:53.335 that change is coming, 751 00:31:54.195 --> 00:31:55.935 but you don't quite know what it's gonna be. 752 00:31:56.595 --> 00:31:57.615 And, uh, you know, when, 753 00:31:57.675 --> 00:31:59.695 so when Rebecca's talking about the strategic planning 754 00:31:59.695 --> 00:32:02.335 process, that's really the process, a process of discovery. 755 00:32:04.185 --> 00:32:06.475 It's, uh, uh, you know, which is why you were talking about 756 00:32:06.475 --> 00:32:07.795 it as questions, right? 757 00:32:07.795 --> 00:32:11.195 It's a process of discovery and listening and done. 758 00:32:11.275 --> 00:32:13.115 Well, it's a process of collaborating 759 00:32:13.185 --> 00:32:14.955 with different levels of the organization. 760 00:32:15.795 --> 00:32:17.755 'cause at the end of the day, let's be honest, 761 00:32:18.175 --> 00:32:21.395 and I wanna see lots of hearts fly when I say this. 762 00:32:21.805 --> 00:32:24.155 Let's be honest, the executives don't actually know 763 00:32:24.155 --> 00:32:27.355 how the business works at a day-to-day level, right? 764 00:32:27.455 --> 00:32:30.995 So, so they need to be involving 765 00:32:31.775 --> 00:32:34.475 the people in the guts of the organ of the organization 766 00:32:34.535 --> 00:32:35.835 or the community or whatever it is, 767 00:32:36.025 --> 00:32:37.075 because they're the people 768 00:32:37.075 --> 00:32:38.155 who know where the bodies are buried. 769 00:32:38.155 --> 00:32:39.925 They're the people who know where the roadblocks are. 770 00:32:40.155 --> 00:32:42.325 They're the people that know that if you turn off 771 00:32:42.325 --> 00:32:43.645 that little switch over there, 772 00:32:44.155 --> 00:32:45.965 this thing over here catches fire. 773 00:32:46.375 --> 00:32:50.155 Right? The execs don't know that that's not their job 774 00:32:50.175 --> 00:32:51.675 to know that they have another job. 775 00:32:51.675 --> 00:32:53.635 They've got a different set of things that they need to do. 776 00:32:54.415 --> 00:32:56.235 So it has to be this sort 777 00:32:56.235 --> 00:32:59.075 of inclu if it's gonna work well, it has 778 00:32:59.075 --> 00:33:00.795 to be inclusive. And, 779 00:33:00.985 --> 00:33:03.475 Well, I also think the other thing that I wanna stress is 780 00:33:04.135 --> 00:33:05.475 the leaders have to be willing 781 00:33:05.535 --> 00:33:07.275 to admit that they don't know. 782 00:33:07.775 --> 00:33:10.555 That's a very, very important threshold for them. 783 00:33:10.615 --> 00:33:11.635 And that is actually 784 00:33:11.635 --> 00:33:13.475 what gets you into the limit when you finally say, 785 00:33:14.275 --> 00:33:15.595 I have just tried everything, 786 00:33:15.655 --> 00:33:16.995 and I'll come into organizations 787 00:33:17.015 --> 00:33:19.715 who have literally been trying to solve the problem 788 00:33:20.135 --> 00:33:22.435 for a decade, and they're just, they're like, 789 00:33:22.435 --> 00:33:23.835 they're just so exhausted. 790 00:33:24.255 --> 00:33:25.755 And so I come in and I'm like, oh, 791 00:33:25.795 --> 00:33:26.955 I got you just where I want you. 792 00:33:27.205 --> 00:33:29.635 Right? So I, I wanted to also respond 793 00:33:29.635 --> 00:33:32.355 to a Shaq's comment about, um, first 794 00:33:32.355 --> 00:33:33.595 of all, yes, herding cats. 795 00:33:33.755 --> 00:33:35.555 I used to remember that commercial that they did. 796 00:33:35.615 --> 00:33:37.155 It was a, I think it was a Wrangler 797 00:33:37.155 --> 00:33:38.395 commercial, or I don't remember. 798 00:33:38.395 --> 00:33:40.235 But anyway, they had a herd of cats 799 00:33:40.335 --> 00:33:41.515 and there was a cowboy, her name. 800 00:33:41.515 --> 00:33:43.915 It was hilarious. I used to start my meetings with it, 801 00:33:44.225 --> 00:33:46.715 because what, what that is saying is there's 802 00:33:46.715 --> 00:33:47.755 so many different inputs 803 00:33:47.755 --> 00:33:49.355 and they're coming from all over the place 804 00:33:49.415 --> 00:33:50.915 and nobody can make sense of them. 805 00:33:50.915 --> 00:33:53.275 Well, that was my job, is to do that. 806 00:33:53.815 --> 00:33:57.315 Um, but I also wanna say strategic planning is not about 807 00:33:57.315 --> 00:33:58.435 options yet. 808 00:33:58.745 --> 00:34:00.075 It's too soon for options. 809 00:34:00.875 --> 00:34:02.915 Strategic planning is about seeing the map, 810 00:34:03.105 --> 00:34:04.955 it's seeing the landscape, right? 811 00:34:05.215 --> 00:34:06.315 And getting a sense of 812 00:34:06.315 --> 00:34:07.955 where we wanna head on that landscape. 813 00:34:08.345 --> 00:34:09.395 Once we've got that 814 00:34:09.855 --> 00:34:13.995 and it's a shared understanding that has grown our viewpoint 815 00:34:14.175 --> 00:34:17.635 and our view shed, then we can start looking at options. 816 00:34:17.695 --> 00:34:20.515 So I find that in strategic planning, we try to get 817 00:34:20.515 --> 00:34:22.915 to options too fast, you know, 818 00:34:22.935 --> 00:34:25.675 and then we're like, just sort of trying to, I don't know, 819 00:34:25.705 --> 00:34:28.435 pick 'em, and we're not using any common frame of reference. 820 00:34:28.455 --> 00:34:30.115 So that's, that's been my experience, 821 00:34:31.275 --> 00:34:32.485 That that's really key. 822 00:34:32.545 --> 00:34:34.845 So I, I'm gonna bring this down a level 823 00:34:35.525 --> 00:34:38.925 'cause I know there are some people on here who are sort 824 00:34:38.925 --> 00:34:40.965 of project leaders and portfolio leaders. 825 00:34:42.065 --> 00:34:43.445 And so the, what, 826 00:34:43.475 --> 00:34:46.005 what Rebecca just talks about is absolutely critical, right? 827 00:34:46.005 --> 00:34:47.805 If you, if you own a portfolio projects 828 00:34:47.825 --> 00:34:50.725 and you've got responsibility for delivering, 829 00:34:50.935 --> 00:34:53.005 maximizing the impact from that portfolio 830 00:34:53.005 --> 00:34:55.125 to the organization, if, 831 00:34:55.225 --> 00:34:57.165 if the organization doesn't actually know 832 00:34:57.875 --> 00:35:01.845 what impact it wants, how can you maximize the value? 833 00:35:02.545 --> 00:35:05.445 You can't. And getting, 834 00:35:05.475 --> 00:35:08.605 sometimes getting the leadership team to understand 835 00:35:10.025 --> 00:35:11.445 the impact of their behavior 836 00:35:12.145 --> 00:35:15.725 on simple things like project success rates, project delays, 837 00:35:15.965 --> 00:35:17.645 overruns, things like that, right? 838 00:35:17.645 --> 00:35:18.725 Things that, things that 839 00:35:18.945 --> 00:35:21.485 as PMOs you might get measured on, right? 840 00:35:21.585 --> 00:35:23.885 Is things like, was my project delivered on time? 841 00:35:23.905 --> 00:35:26.805 And, um, to, to scope and things like that, right? 842 00:35:27.995 --> 00:35:32.005 Usually the, the root, root cause of those delays 843 00:35:32.005 --> 00:35:33.205 and overruns is the fact 844 00:35:33.205 --> 00:35:35.045 that the organization doesn't 845 00:35:35.045 --> 00:35:36.165 really know what it's trying to achieve. 846 00:35:36.235 --> 00:35:38.605 It's trying to do, do too much all at once 847 00:35:38.755 --> 00:35:39.925 instead of staggering it. 848 00:35:40.545 --> 00:35:44.645 And so you get resource collisions and change overload 849 00:35:44.665 --> 00:35:45.725 and everything falls apart. 850 00:35:47.415 --> 00:35:51.525 So how do we get the leadership team to listen if you are in 851 00:35:51.525 --> 00:35:53.045 that PMO role, right? 852 00:35:53.065 --> 00:35:56.285 How do you get the leadership team to listen 853 00:35:57.305 --> 00:36:01.605 and to, to engage in this conversation about putting a 854 00:36:01.605 --> 00:36:02.885 little more structure around it. 855 00:36:03.305 --> 00:36:05.405 Now we've, we've got a little process that we go through. 856 00:36:05.585 --> 00:36:08.405 If Lenora is on, if you could paste that link again, Lenora, 857 00:36:08.585 --> 00:36:09.845 we call it the case for change, 858 00:36:09.845 --> 00:36:14.445 which is a dis it's basically a little workshop 859 00:36:14.445 --> 00:36:17.205 that we take you through to prepare your conversation 860 00:36:17.205 --> 00:36:20.805 with the leadership team so that you can make it visible 861 00:36:21.595 --> 00:36:23.205 that you know, the, the reason 862 00:36:23.235 --> 00:36:27.085 that the things aren't landing that you want to land is 863 00:36:27.085 --> 00:36:31.495 because the fundamental planning isn't in place, right? 864 00:36:31.995 --> 00:36:33.695 And to ask for the help to change that. 865 00:36:33.695 --> 00:36:34.935 You're not saying you guys are 866 00:36:34.935 --> 00:36:36.015 idiots, you're not doing your job. 867 00:36:36.265 --> 00:36:37.855 We're not saying, you know, we're not saying that, 868 00:36:38.515 --> 00:36:41.495 but we're helping them understand the causal link between 869 00:36:43.035 --> 00:36:45.735 the organization's inability to deliver the goals 870 00:36:45.735 --> 00:36:50.105 that they want with their inability to give you the clarity 871 00:36:50.105 --> 00:36:51.425 that you need, right? 872 00:36:51.485 --> 00:36:52.545 And, and to be inclusive 873 00:36:52.565 --> 00:36:54.625 and to take you with them on the, on the journey. 874 00:36:55.205 --> 00:36:57.905 Um, so Le Lenora will drop that into the chat in a, 875 00:36:57.925 --> 00:37:00.185 in a moment, but do click on that link 876 00:37:00.605 --> 00:37:03.105 and, um, book yourself a case for change. 877 00:37:03.125 --> 00:37:05.025 We, this is free, we do it, you know, 878 00:37:05.045 --> 00:37:07.785 and you get an hour for free to, to walk through that. 879 00:37:08.605 --> 00:37:11.865 Um, awesome. It'll get you set up to, to start the process. 880 00:37:12.005 --> 00:37:13.865 And Ashok, who's on here, I think he went 881 00:37:13.865 --> 00:37:14.865 through a little workshop where 882 00:37:14.865 --> 00:37:15.905 we did it with a group of people. 883 00:37:16.565 --> 00:37:20.145 Um, uh, so, you know, we, we, we do this all the time. 884 00:37:20.445 --> 00:37:22.785 So if you're in that position, click on the link. 885 00:37:22.905 --> 00:37:24.425 I know Lenora put it in there a little earlier. 886 00:37:24.675 --> 00:37:26.425 She's maybe gone off to make a cup of tea or something. 887 00:37:27.005 --> 00:37:29.785 Um, but, uh, uh, it, 888 00:37:29.815 --> 00:37:31.065 it's in the chat a little higher 889 00:37:31.085 --> 00:37:32.305 up if you, if you have a look. 890 00:37:32.925 --> 00:37:37.235 Um, so, so let's come back, Rebecca, 891 00:37:37.455 --> 00:37:38.755 to kind of the rest of the process. 892 00:37:38.975 --> 00:37:40.995 We got to this sort of liminal phase where we're, 893 00:37:41.085 --> 00:37:42.195 we're sort of in transition. 894 00:37:42.195 --> 00:37:44.555 We know, we know that we can't stay where we are, 895 00:37:45.215 --> 00:37:48.595 but we, we need to kind of move, move on 896 00:37:48.755 --> 00:37:50.955 to something else. Then what? 897 00:37:51.575 --> 00:37:54.515 So, well, I just wanna say also, um, one of the things 898 00:37:54.515 --> 00:37:57.395 that the, the two first stages, instigation 899 00:37:57.395 --> 00:37:58.715 and liminal are the hardest. 900 00:37:59.575 --> 00:38:01.475 Um, not when we want change. 901 00:38:01.585 --> 00:38:03.315 When we want change, we fly through these, right? 902 00:38:03.575 --> 00:38:06.195 In instigation we're seeing signs of change 903 00:38:06.255 --> 00:38:08.715 and we get excited and we're thrilled, like, oh, you know, 904 00:38:08.715 --> 00:38:09.795 maybe I'm gonna get a new job, 905 00:38:09.795 --> 00:38:11.155 or I'm gonna move to a new place. 906 00:38:11.175 --> 00:38:12.195 So I just wanna be clear. 907 00:38:12.495 --> 00:38:15.195 Change is not always any one thing. 908 00:38:15.655 --> 00:38:19.795 It is completely dependent on situation and the person 909 00:38:20.095 --> 00:38:22.155 or people who are heading into it. 910 00:38:22.535 --> 00:38:25.715 And that's another thing that I found in my organizations is 911 00:38:25.715 --> 00:38:28.795 that there were people for some who felt like, oh, 912 00:38:28.795 --> 00:38:29.995 this change is a no brainer. 913 00:38:30.225 --> 00:38:31.955 It's like, I'm happy to do it. Let's go. 914 00:38:32.055 --> 00:38:33.235 And they'd be really impatient. 915 00:38:33.735 --> 00:38:36.885 And then other people would be like, this is huge. 916 00:38:36.955 --> 00:38:38.245 It's impossible. I can't do it. 917 00:38:38.825 --> 00:38:42.155 So the thing that's operating, there's a lot 918 00:38:42.155 --> 00:38:44.155 of emotion in change, a lot. 919 00:38:45.025 --> 00:38:48.005 And it can be so much that what we see is actually numbing 920 00:38:48.115 --> 00:38:52.165 because people have been so unable to change for so long. 921 00:38:52.625 --> 00:38:55.405 The only way they can manage themselves in the 922 00:38:55.405 --> 00:38:56.725 organization is to go numb. 923 00:38:57.395 --> 00:38:58.925 It's one of the saddest things 924 00:38:58.925 --> 00:39:02.125 that I see when I go into organizations is you're basically 925 00:39:02.415 --> 00:39:04.365 death by unwillingness to change. 926 00:39:05.225 --> 00:39:08.725 So, but I'm also dealing with defensiveness and anger 927 00:39:08.865 --> 00:39:10.525 and, you know, cynicism 928 00:39:10.665 --> 00:39:13.685 and, you know, the, I can't, we can't, we can't, we can't. 929 00:39:13.985 --> 00:39:15.925 All this stuff is really, um, 930 00:39:16.175 --> 00:39:18.445 preventing us from leaning into, 931 00:39:18.555 --> 00:39:20.445 from moving into the change process. 932 00:39:21.025 --> 00:39:23.405 So once we've actually been in the liminal 933 00:39:23.465 --> 00:39:24.965 and really done that well, 934 00:39:25.345 --> 00:39:27.685 and I would say that that's one of the hardest things 935 00:39:27.685 --> 00:39:30.085 that's ever done, especially in corporate, 936 00:39:30.235 --> 00:39:33.285 because the timetable of corporate is fast. 937 00:39:33.705 --> 00:39:36.165 So one of the things I always ask the people that hire me, 938 00:39:36.245 --> 00:39:39.725 I say, do you, are you willing to put the time into this? 939 00:39:39.725 --> 00:39:41.165 And do you have this stamina? 940 00:39:41.505 --> 00:39:43.115 Because this ain't gonna be fast. 941 00:39:43.175 --> 00:39:45.435 If you wanna fast fix, go to somebody else. 942 00:39:45.715 --> 00:39:47.075 'cause what I'm seeing here is 943 00:39:47.075 --> 00:39:49.755 that your whole organization needs to go 944 00:39:49.755 --> 00:39:50.995 through this change process together, 945 00:39:51.215 --> 00:39:52.355 and that's gonna take some time. 946 00:39:52.375 --> 00:39:54.555 But on the other side, you're gonna get stuff 947 00:39:54.615 --> 00:39:56.755 that's gonna blow your doors off. 948 00:39:57.055 --> 00:39:58.555 So it's up to you. You know, 949 00:39:58.595 --> 00:39:59.755 I always just say, it's up to you. 950 00:40:00.415 --> 00:40:01.795 So we have to be able to deal 951 00:40:01.795 --> 00:40:03.395 with the emotions that come through. 952 00:40:03.855 --> 00:40:05.715 And that's another reason I'm often hired, 953 00:40:05.715 --> 00:40:08.795 because a lot of people in the C-suite don't have those 954 00:40:08.795 --> 00:40:09.875 skills, and they know they don't. 955 00:40:09.875 --> 00:40:13.195 And so big change and involving lots of people scares them 956 00:40:13.345 --> 00:40:16.315 because they don't know how to manage all this stuff, 957 00:40:16.315 --> 00:40:17.795 and they don't know what it means, right? 958 00:40:18.215 --> 00:40:19.555 So that's, that's one 959 00:40:19.555 --> 00:40:21.595 of the great gifts when you can help people, 960 00:40:21.975 --> 00:40:22.995 you know, to get across. 961 00:40:23.175 --> 00:40:26.115 Now, once you've been in the liminal for a while, 962 00:40:26.305 --> 00:40:27.955 what I always notice is 963 00:40:27.955 --> 00:40:31.355 that the metabolization stage just starts to show up, 964 00:40:31.775 --> 00:40:36.315 and metabolization shows up in a different kind of energy. 965 00:40:36.655 --> 00:40:40.035 People start, instead of being dark and kind of heavy 966 00:40:40.135 --> 00:40:42.355 and confused and bummed 967 00:40:42.355 --> 00:40:44.155 or whatever it is, low energy, all 968 00:40:44.155 --> 00:40:46.115 of a sudden they start to laugh. 969 00:40:46.375 --> 00:40:49.715 Things start to be funny, things that were really serious 970 00:40:49.855 --> 00:40:51.675 and really annoying and really difficult. 971 00:40:51.735 --> 00:40:54.835 All of a sudden they see a funnier side to it. 972 00:40:55.385 --> 00:40:58.115 They also start getting like, ideas 973 00:40:58.225 --> 00:41:00.555 that they never had thought of before, 974 00:41:01.215 --> 00:41:04.555 or they'll tell me stories of things they've been able to do 975 00:41:05.065 --> 00:41:07.075 that they've wanted to be able to do and couldn't. 976 00:41:07.075 --> 00:41:10.435 Like one guy was my, was a, a head of, was a CIO 977 00:41:10.655 --> 00:41:13.035 and he'd go into his management team presenting his budget, 978 00:41:13.095 --> 00:41:15.795 and he would just get great over the coals. 979 00:41:15.985 --> 00:41:17.875 They didn't understand what he was doing, they didn't like 980 00:41:17.875 --> 00:41:19.475 what he was doing, and they never gave him money, 981 00:41:19.775 --> 00:41:21.675 and it was just so hard for him. 982 00:41:21.975 --> 00:41:23.115 He was just beaten down. 983 00:41:23.455 --> 00:41:24.875 So he went through the liminal process, 984 00:41:25.655 --> 00:41:26.955 and one day he calls me 985 00:41:26.975 --> 00:41:29.515 and he goes, Rebecca, you're not gonna believe this. 986 00:41:30.745 --> 00:41:32.045 He had gotten his whole budget, 987 00:41:32.155 --> 00:41:33.645 he'd had an interesting phone call, 988 00:41:34.145 --> 00:41:37.725 and I knew that was a sign that he had changed, 989 00:41:38.225 --> 00:41:39.365 but he couldn't see it. 990 00:41:40.175 --> 00:41:42.795 So I had to talk to him about, all right, what are you doing 991 00:41:42.935 --> 00:41:45.435 that's different so that he could actually own it 992 00:41:45.775 --> 00:41:47.235 and nurture it and incorporate it. 993 00:41:47.235 --> 00:41:49.355 So metabolization is exactly that. 994 00:41:49.855 --> 00:41:53.555 It is metabolizing the change in the system, whether 995 00:41:53.555 --> 00:41:55.715 that's an individual, like a leader, 996 00:41:56.015 --> 00:41:57.635 or in an entire organization. 997 00:41:58.055 --> 00:42:01.395 And it takes as long as it takes to, to do 998 00:42:01.395 --> 00:42:02.675 that sort of metabolization. 999 00:42:02.855 --> 00:42:05.275 And we can all recognize, you know, we'll say, 1000 00:42:05.575 --> 00:42:06.795 wow, I did something. 1001 00:42:06.795 --> 00:42:08.715 And I have absolutely no idea how that happened. 1002 00:42:09.455 --> 00:42:13.075 That's the sign that we're moving into a new space. 1003 00:42:14.035 --> 00:42:18.575 So, so related to that, actually, Kevin, um, uh, just, 1004 00:42:18.685 --> 00:42:22.975 just shared something here, um, that, uh, 1005 00:42:23.995 --> 00:42:26.695 uh, you know, there's another fundamental thing, uh, 1006 00:42:27.795 --> 00:42:30.095 at play, which is people deciding 1007 00:42:30.675 --> 00:42:32.455 or not to accept the change, right? 1008 00:42:32.455 --> 00:42:35.055 Making sense of change. 1009 00:42:36.115 --> 00:42:38.535 So that's something that you talk about quite a lot, right? 1010 00:42:38.675 --> 00:42:41.415 Is is almost like a grieving process sometimes. 1011 00:42:42.195 --> 00:42:44.135 Mm-hmm. Well, 1012 00:42:44.135 --> 00:42:46.095 and I also love what he's saying here about organizational 1013 00:42:46.095 --> 00:42:49.015 changes made up of an accumulation of individual changes. 1014 00:42:49.515 --> 00:42:51.215 So I'm so glad you said that, Kevin, 1015 00:42:51.215 --> 00:42:54.255 because I always thought of myself like a conductor 1016 00:42:54.475 --> 00:42:57.535 of an orchestra, you know, the conductor has the score, 1017 00:42:57.955 --> 00:42:59.855 and the score for me was the change process. 1018 00:43:00.285 --> 00:43:02.815 Okay? So I'm working to get them through that process. 1019 00:43:03.035 --> 00:43:06.455 And while I'm working with the entire orchestra, 1020 00:43:06.535 --> 00:43:09.175 which is the organization, I'm also working 1021 00:43:09.175 --> 00:43:11.695 with the string section, the vi, you know, the, 1022 00:43:11.715 --> 00:43:12.935 the ani, right? 1023 00:43:13.275 --> 00:43:15.215 I'm also working with individual musicians. 1024 00:43:15.435 --> 00:43:16.695 I'm talking to the horn, you know, 1025 00:43:16.695 --> 00:43:18.215 the trumpeter or whatever, right? 1026 00:43:18.275 --> 00:43:21.935 So just like a conductor, we've gotta be able to synchronize 1027 00:43:21.955 --> 00:43:25.815 and work with all of the change inputs. 1028 00:43:26.075 --> 00:43:27.535 So if we've got somebody, for instance, 1029 00:43:27.545 --> 00:43:28.895 who's involved in a change in, 1030 00:43:28.995 --> 00:43:31.735 in bringing about a large scale change in an organization, 1031 00:43:31.795 --> 00:43:33.895 and they're going through a deep personal change, 1032 00:43:34.325 --> 00:43:36.615 like they've gotten a divorce, they've gotten a, a, 1033 00:43:36.835 --> 00:43:39.695 you know, a a an illness, a diagnosis of something, 1034 00:43:39.965 --> 00:43:44.615 they're looking at retirement, those people are also going 1035 00:43:44.615 --> 00:43:46.535 through change, and that's gonna have an impact 1036 00:43:47.155 --> 00:43:48.335 on the larger system. 1037 00:43:48.435 --> 00:43:50.135 So I think, I mean, I don't know if that's exactly 1038 00:43:50.135 --> 00:43:51.695 what you were meaning, but that's what it, 1039 00:43:51.695 --> 00:43:52.855 that's what it looked like for me. 1040 00:43:53.525 --> 00:43:57.615 Yeah, exactly. That's exactly, no, I like that. 1041 00:43:58.035 --> 00:44:00.575 That's great. Well, and, 1042 00:44:00.635 --> 00:44:03.735 and so, so I, I, I, I, I know Kevin, 1043 00:44:03.835 --> 00:44:05.135 so thank you for the comments, Kevin. 1044 00:44:05.635 --> 00:44:09.975 Um, the, so part of the challenge there is not just 1045 00:44:10.855 --> 00:44:13.655 implementing change as a project leader and a project 1046 00:44:13.675 --> 00:44:15.935 and portfolio leader, not just implementing change 1047 00:44:15.935 --> 00:44:17.855 and making an environment that is conducive 1048 00:44:17.855 --> 00:44:18.895 to change happening, 1049 00:44:20.115 --> 00:44:24.365 but also helping the executives 1050 00:44:25.415 --> 00:44:26.955 change their behavior. 1051 00:44:28.715 --> 00:44:31.925 And so, what do you, in, in your experience, are there any 1052 00:44:32.595 --> 00:44:36.445 tips for how to really wake up 1053 00:44:37.225 --> 00:44:40.645 the leadership team without committing career suicide? 1054 00:44:41.755 --> 00:44:43.605 Yeah, I think that's really, really tricky. 1055 00:44:43.785 --> 00:44:45.885 But we call that leading from, you know, 1056 00:44:45.885 --> 00:44:47.445 different places in the organization. 1057 00:44:47.445 --> 00:44:49.445 And I completely believe in that. 1058 00:44:49.985 --> 00:44:51.845 And I think you alluded to it earlier, Stuart, 1059 00:44:51.845 --> 00:44:54.285 when you said, you know, just asking questions, 1060 00:44:54.625 --> 00:44:58.485 not questions that are, you know, loaded with accusation 1061 00:44:58.485 --> 00:45:00.485 or blame or, you know, you're a bunch of idiots, 1062 00:45:00.745 --> 00:45:03.645 but really asking for, for that direction 1063 00:45:03.645 --> 00:45:06.085 and saying, you know, I, we feel a bit confused down here. 1064 00:45:06.495 --> 00:45:08.045 Could you help us with, 1065 00:45:08.345 --> 00:45:11.205 and then asking for those questions, that's a beginning 1066 00:45:11.425 --> 00:45:15.045 or else showing relationship between what you're trying 1067 00:45:15.045 --> 00:45:17.245 to do and what you need from them. 1068 00:45:17.425 --> 00:45:19.285 And just saying, you know, if we could get this, 1069 00:45:19.835 --> 00:45:21.965 we'd really be able to, to rock and roll. 1070 00:45:21.965 --> 00:45:23.165 So you're showing causation, 1071 00:45:23.165 --> 00:45:24.765 you're showing you're being gentle. 1072 00:45:25.165 --> 00:45:26.565 I also think you need to read the room. 1073 00:45:26.965 --> 00:45:29.205 I mean, if you've got execs that are just 1074 00:45:29.905 --> 00:45:32.285 to completely think they know what they're doing, 1075 00:45:32.625 --> 00:45:35.165 and they're very shrouded, they don't open their decisions 1076 00:45:35.165 --> 00:45:38.725 to anybody, it, that's not a great situation, right? 1077 00:45:38.795 --> 00:45:40.325 They need a consultant to come in 1078 00:45:40.325 --> 00:45:42.285 and kick their, you know what, you 1079 00:45:42.285 --> 00:45:43.925 Know what that, that sometimes that is the answer. 1080 00:45:43.925 --> 00:45:46.205 Bring someone from outside. Um, you know, I, 1081 00:45:46.205 --> 00:45:48.285 Yeah, because I have, there's no risk for me, you know, 1082 00:45:48.365 --> 00:45:49.445 I would say to people, if you don't 1083 00:45:49.445 --> 00:45:50.485 like what I'm saying, fire me. 1084 00:45:50.685 --> 00:45:52.205 I, I'm, I'll walk out the door right now, 1085 00:45:52.265 --> 00:45:53.565 but here's what you gotta hear. 1086 00:45:54.485 --> 00:45:57.045 Absolutely. And my guys generally would be like, oh God, 1087 00:45:57.145 --> 00:45:58.725 you know, she's right. 1088 00:45:58.865 --> 00:46:00.805 But I also wanna talk, you asked me to, 1089 00:46:00.945 --> 00:46:02.325 to mention something about 1090 00:46:02.835 --> 00:46:04.605 what goes on in the C-suite, right? 1091 00:46:04.605 --> 00:46:07.165 These are people, they're people just like all of us. 1092 00:46:07.165 --> 00:46:09.765 They're no different. And they have everything we have. 1093 00:46:10.265 --> 00:46:13.965 So when I was working with one guy in particular, he was, 1094 00:46:14.105 --> 00:46:16.405 he knew that there was a huge change in front 1095 00:46:16.405 --> 00:46:19.845 of his organization that he was not fully able 1096 00:46:19.985 --> 00:46:22.565 to bring about or even to get behind yet. 1097 00:46:23.025 --> 00:46:26.915 And the guy started getting migraines, intense migraines 1098 00:46:26.975 --> 00:46:28.755 so badly, he had to stay at home. 1099 00:46:29.495 --> 00:46:32.475 And I said to him, you know, I think these migraines are, 1100 00:46:32.825 --> 00:46:36.495 your brain is sort of exploding, and that's a good thing. 1101 00:46:36.695 --> 00:46:37.895 I said, I know migraines are horrible, 1102 00:46:38.075 --> 00:46:40.895 but just ride through it, relax, know 1103 00:46:40.895 --> 00:46:42.615 that I've got this over here for the time 1104 00:46:42.615 --> 00:46:43.695 that you need to step away. 1105 00:46:44.435 --> 00:46:46.455 And it was really amazing. 1106 00:46:47.235 --> 00:46:49.175 He did get through, it took him about three months, 1107 00:46:49.955 --> 00:46:52.895 and he came back and he was like a changed person. 1108 00:46:53.035 --> 00:46:55.495 He was able to sort of pick up where we were 1109 00:46:55.555 --> 00:46:56.775 and, and move forward with it. 1110 00:46:56.775 --> 00:46:59.495 So, I mean, I had seen some really bizarre things 1111 00:46:59.495 --> 00:47:00.735 when people are going through change 1112 00:47:02.185 --> 00:47:03.185 Ab Absolutely. 1113 00:47:03.545 --> 00:47:04.925 Um, there's another little comment 1114 00:47:05.065 --> 00:47:07.045 or question saying is it is change. 1115 00:47:07.045 --> 00:47:10.325 Do you see change being easier when the people where the, 1116 00:47:10.325 --> 00:47:11.485 the change is affecting, 1117 00:47:11.595 --> 00:47:13.285 have a stake in it, have a voice in it? 1118 00:47:13.865 --> 00:47:16.405 Um, and, and I think, you know, I mean, my my view on 1119 00:47:16.405 --> 00:47:19.205 that is really, really are very, very loud. 1120 00:47:19.345 --> 00:47:20.525 Yes. Right? 1121 00:47:20.665 --> 00:47:25.405 So, so, um, leadership team selecting projects, right? 1122 00:47:25.405 --> 00:47:27.725 They said, you know, or, or doing even above that, 1123 00:47:27.725 --> 00:47:29.645 doing the strategic planning, right? 1124 00:47:29.645 --> 00:47:31.925 If they're not involving people from across the business, 1125 00:47:32.115 --> 00:47:36.245 then, then the chances are there's gonna be pushback to 1126 00:47:37.035 --> 00:47:39.605 bits of the decision, right? 1127 00:47:40.225 --> 00:47:42.925 But even within a project, if you're, if you're, 1128 00:47:43.395 --> 00:47:47.125 imagine you're, you're sales team, um, 1129 00:47:47.345 --> 00:47:49.405 or there's a bunch of people for the NHS, right? 1130 00:47:49.835 --> 00:47:51.645 Imagine someone just says, great, 1131 00:47:52.015 --> 00:47:53.325 we're gonna buy a new machine 1132 00:47:53.325 --> 00:47:54.885 that goes ping for the cardiologist. 1133 00:47:54.885 --> 00:47:56.365 If the cardiologist weren't involved in 1134 00:47:56.365 --> 00:47:57.445 that decision, what's gonna happen? 1135 00:47:58.435 --> 00:48:01.225 Right? That machine that goes ping isn't gonna go ping. 1136 00:48:02.165 --> 00:48:05.865 Um, so, so the getting people involved is, 1137 00:48:05.965 --> 00:48:07.945 is really critical to landing change. 1138 00:48:08.625 --> 00:48:10.865 I also wanna say that's, that's another place 1139 00:48:10.865 --> 00:48:14.345 where leaders often feel, um, nervous 1140 00:48:14.815 --> 00:48:19.065 because once you open that door, they, if they don't know 1141 00:48:19.065 --> 00:48:20.425 how to herd cats, right? 1142 00:48:20.425 --> 00:48:21.865 Or they don't have any tools to help them, 1143 00:48:22.255 --> 00:48:24.425 then it's just like, oh, where am I? 1144 00:48:24.565 --> 00:48:28.905 So I just wanna say again, right, that providing leaders 1145 00:48:29.095 --> 00:48:32.025 with ways to involve people that are efficient 1146 00:48:32.565 --> 00:48:35.225 and that, that, that are productive 1147 00:48:35.445 --> 00:48:37.105 and not just sort of like a, you know, 1148 00:48:37.215 --> 00:48:39.465 getting people's all their little fussy things 1149 00:48:39.465 --> 00:48:41.065 and then you don't, it just ends up being a 1150 00:48:41.065 --> 00:48:42.665 mess is a big hurdle. 1151 00:48:43.325 --> 00:48:45.865 Um, I also wanna say that when you say this, 1152 00:48:46.145 --> 00:48:48.825 a stake in the business area, one of the, 1153 00:48:49.065 --> 00:48:50.505 I think really big challenges 1154 00:48:50.505 --> 00:48:53.425 and also big gifts of leadership is to be able 1155 00:48:53.425 --> 00:48:56.105 to make the connections between areas. 1156 00:48:56.775 --> 00:48:58.865 It's like, that's, let's go back to the orchestra, 1157 00:48:59.285 --> 00:49:00.305 um, metaphor. 1158 00:49:00.925 --> 00:49:04.305 If the ani think that everybody's boring 1159 00:49:04.605 --> 00:49:06.505 and that they're loud and they're cool, 1160 00:49:06.645 --> 00:49:08.825 and you know, they're better than the, 1161 00:49:08.825 --> 00:49:10.345 than the strings, right? 1162 00:49:10.645 --> 00:49:11.705 You're gonna have a problem. 1163 00:49:12.445 --> 00:49:14.905 So, but Ani understands the role of strings. 1164 00:49:14.905 --> 00:49:16.705 Strings understands, ani understands horns. 1165 00:49:16.705 --> 00:49:20.785 Everybody kind of appreciates all the musicians, right? 1166 00:49:21.215 --> 00:49:23.665 Even if they're not an expert in that area, right? 1167 00:49:24.335 --> 00:49:27.505 Then we have, we have a great, we have a, we have a chance 1168 00:49:27.505 --> 00:49:28.905 to do a great symphony, right? 1169 00:49:30.745 --> 00:49:32.025 Absolutely. So we've talked, 1170 00:49:32.115 --> 00:49:33.865 we've talked a little bit about, you know, there are, 1171 00:49:33.865 --> 00:49:35.345 there are different phases to change. 1172 00:49:35.875 --> 00:49:38.105 We've talked a bit about, you know, inclusion, 1173 00:49:38.995 --> 00:49:42.345 we've talked about the importance of inclusion, um, 1174 00:49:42.925 --> 00:49:45.265 talked about the importance of having a vision for 1175 00:49:45.265 --> 00:49:48.385 where we're going to, but not having that vision 1176 00:49:49.255 --> 00:49:50.305 just arbitrarily, 1177 00:49:50.445 --> 00:49:53.265 but taking time to develop, learn, 1178 00:49:53.605 --> 00:49:55.385 get different perspectives on that vision. 1179 00:49:55.965 --> 00:49:59.225 Mm-hmm. And which, you know, a again, is where 1180 00:49:59.785 --> 00:50:02.145 a really good consultant can help and, 1181 00:50:02.205 --> 00:50:04.425 and really good software can help structure 1182 00:50:04.425 --> 00:50:07.665 that process in a way that that's, so, you know, this 1183 00:50:07.765 --> 00:50:09.025 and this is what we do all the time. 1184 00:50:09.845 --> 00:50:13.825 Um, but then let, let's, let's take this sort of 1185 00:50:14.595 --> 00:50:17.905 along a couple of notches and, um, 1186 00:50:18.345 --> 00:50:19.785 'cause we, we've got about 10 minutes left. 1187 00:50:20.325 --> 00:50:22.625 So let's, let's talk a little bit about, okay, you're, 1188 00:50:22.625 --> 00:50:24.105 you're, you're a manager. 1189 00:50:24.105 --> 00:50:26.225 You're managing a portfolio project. 1190 00:50:28.735 --> 00:50:31.185 What are the things that you should be thinking about as a, 1191 00:50:31.625 --> 00:50:36.305 a leader of people who are doing change to other people? 1192 00:50:37.375 --> 00:50:38.865 What are the things that you should be thinking about, 1193 00:50:38.885 --> 00:50:40.905 the capabilities you should be thinking about 1194 00:50:42.225 --> 00:50:44.665 building in the organization, the training maybe 1195 00:50:44.665 --> 00:50:47.345 that we give to project managers, the culture 1196 00:50:47.765 --> 00:50:50.025 of having change management 1197 00:50:50.565 --> 00:50:53.945 and project management working together rather than fighting 1198 00:50:54.005 --> 00:50:55.625 for who's better, right? 1199 00:50:55.685 --> 00:50:56.825 All of these things. So what 1200 00:50:56.825 --> 00:50:57.865 are your, what are your thoughts there? 1201 00:50:57.885 --> 00:51:01.545 So real practical, making stuff happen. Advice, 1202 00:51:02.615 --> 00:51:04.425 Well, I guess I would say that 1203 00:51:05.055 --> 00:51:09.025 alignment all the way down an organization based on 1204 00:51:09.415 --> 00:51:13.025 that sort of change ability, that's what I call it. 1205 00:51:13.125 --> 00:51:17.345 Change ability, ability with change is really critical. 1206 00:51:17.365 --> 00:51:20.105 And if you're running anything, if you're managing anything, 1207 00:51:20.405 --> 00:51:22.425 having an uh, a facility 1208 00:51:22.425 --> 00:51:25.105 with change is absolutely imperative. 1209 00:51:25.245 --> 00:51:27.825 And what I find unfortunately is 1210 00:51:27.825 --> 00:51:29.945 that we don't hire with that in mind. 1211 00:51:30.525 --> 00:51:31.625 We don't hire for, 1212 00:51:31.805 --> 00:51:35.785 am I looking at somebody who's got capability in dealing 1213 00:51:35.785 --> 00:51:37.665 with change, not only in themselves, right? 1214 00:51:37.665 --> 00:51:40.185 Because we have a lot of people who are just, you know, 1215 00:51:40.365 --> 00:51:41.305 I'm really good at change 1216 00:51:41.325 --> 00:51:42.745 and what's wrong with everybody else? 1217 00:51:42.815 --> 00:51:44.345 Well, that's no good, right? 1218 00:51:44.615 --> 00:51:48.385 Everybody has different change aptitude, just like we do 1219 00:51:48.385 --> 00:51:51.305 with sports or numbers or even fear of heights, right? 1220 00:51:51.535 --> 00:51:54.505 Everybody's different. We want people in the lead 1221 00:51:54.885 --> 00:51:58.785 who are good with change because it's gonna happen, right? 1222 00:51:59.045 --> 00:52:01.505 And to build that capability, no matter at 1223 00:52:01.505 --> 00:52:03.665 what level you're at, just thinking 1224 00:52:03.665 --> 00:52:06.425 that change is being led at the C-suite is nuts. 1225 00:52:06.645 --> 00:52:08.505 Change is happening all the time everywhere, 1226 00:52:08.505 --> 00:52:09.585 at every scale, at every level. 1227 00:52:09.685 --> 00:52:12.545 We all know that. So making it sort of like 1228 00:52:13.225 --> 00:52:18.025 a baseline criteria for hiring people who are in charge 1229 00:52:18.025 --> 00:52:20.225 of other people and in charge of areas to me, 1230 00:52:20.225 --> 00:52:22.485 seems like critical. 1231 00:52:22.785 --> 00:52:24.245 And if you are in that area 1232 00:52:24.385 --> 00:52:28.205 and you don't, you feel threatened by, or freaked out by, 1233 00:52:28.225 --> 00:52:31.285 or, you know, your main response to change is not good. 1234 00:52:31.445 --> 00:52:32.805 I would say you need to up your game 1235 00:52:32.805 --> 00:52:34.645 and change to be able to do your job well. 1236 00:52:34.745 --> 00:52:37.085 And that's what thresholds of change is for, is 1237 00:52:37.085 --> 00:52:38.445 to help you see the change process, 1238 00:52:38.445 --> 00:52:40.885 help you see those indicators, see what needs 1239 00:52:40.885 --> 00:52:42.925 to be done in each of those ch stages. 1240 00:52:43.665 --> 00:52:46.565 You know, that's, that's would be my recommendation is 1241 00:52:46.565 --> 00:52:48.605 that you, you know, do a course on change. 1242 00:52:48.605 --> 00:52:49.605 Right. 1243 00:52:50.485 --> 00:52:52.085 Excellent. All right. I shock, I'm gonna ignore 1244 00:52:52.085 --> 00:52:55.125 that comment, but 1245 00:52:56.025 --> 00:52:58.605 Aw, that's excellent. Yes, we should, 1246 00:52:59.555 --> 00:53:01.085 Yeah, it sounds, sounds good. 1247 00:53:01.105 --> 00:53:02.485 Bit of rock and roll guitar and, 1248 00:53:02.545 --> 00:53:05.165 and operatic voice would be fantastic. 1249 00:53:05.605 --> 00:53:07.565 I used to be in a rock band too, so I can do both. 1250 00:53:07.945 --> 00:53:09.965 We can do both. Excellent. Yeah. Excellent. 1251 00:53:10.005 --> 00:53:13.045 I do enjoy a little bit of opera myself. Um, cool, cool. 1252 00:53:13.385 --> 00:53:17.325 But not, not at the level that you do. Um, fa fantastic. 1253 00:53:17.545 --> 00:53:22.125 So the, the, the key I think is, um, 1254 00:53:24.055 --> 00:53:26.045 is just setting that culture of change 1255 00:53:26.505 --> 00:53:29.045 and the expectation of inclusion, right? 1256 00:53:29.305 --> 00:53:30.445 So, you know, 1257 00:53:30.445 --> 00:53:32.365 if I'm a project manager implementing a project, 1258 00:53:33.555 --> 00:53:36.445 it's not my job to force people to do something. 1259 00:53:37.235 --> 00:53:40.405 Your job is to serve people to enable change, right? 1260 00:53:40.675 --> 00:53:42.535 Not to force change, it's to enable change. 1261 00:53:43.515 --> 00:53:46.335 And that means changing people. 1262 00:53:46.515 --> 00:53:49.215 So, so a shock, I I I get where you're came coming from 1263 00:53:49.215 --> 00:53:50.535 with the comment about, you know, it's, 1264 00:53:50.535 --> 00:53:52.055 it's about data that's part of it. 1265 00:53:52.795 --> 00:53:55.495 But you've, you've gotta carry, you've gotta carry the head. 1266 00:53:55.675 --> 00:53:56.855 That's where the data comes in. 1267 00:53:56.855 --> 00:53:57.895 But you've also gotta carry the heart 1268 00:53:59.505 --> 00:54:00.845 And the whole Yeah, Right. 1269 00:54:00.865 --> 00:54:02.605 You, you've gotta, you've gotta, you know, it's 1270 00:54:02.605 --> 00:54:04.365 what you were saying earlier that connecting the head 1271 00:54:04.365 --> 00:54:05.885 with the, the body and, 1272 00:54:05.945 --> 00:54:08.765 and this, this process, if you like, of managing change, 1273 00:54:09.485 --> 00:54:10.925 I is the, is the neck that, 1274 00:54:10.955 --> 00:54:13.445 that connects the two. So you've gotta connect. I 1275 00:54:13.445 --> 00:54:14.805 Don't, I'd also like to speak 1276 00:54:14.805 --> 00:54:16.685 to Mary's comment really quick before we end, 1277 00:54:16.685 --> 00:54:19.925 because it's very much about you and Transparent joints 1278 00:54:19.925 --> 00:54:22.045 and the people that are my folks that are on here today, 1279 00:54:22.125 --> 00:54:23.285 I think came to learn about it. 1280 00:54:23.805 --> 00:54:26.165 I just wanna say that the thing that's extraordinary 1281 00:54:26.165 --> 00:54:27.765 to me about decision software and, 1282 00:54:27.945 --> 00:54:30.245 and so much fun about working with Transparent Choice 1283 00:54:30.265 --> 00:54:33.645 and Stewart and his team is that it is, 1284 00:54:33.745 --> 00:54:35.725 it is not making the decision for you. 1285 00:54:35.725 --> 00:54:39.125 What it is doing is it is exposing some of the elements 1286 00:54:39.265 --> 00:54:41.765 of decision making that are very hard to see 1287 00:54:42.185 --> 00:54:44.365 unless they're built into a software. 1288 00:54:44.705 --> 00:54:47.485 If you have to load a software with strategic criteria 1289 00:54:47.595 --> 00:54:49.805 that makes sense and that are shared, now all 1290 00:54:49.805 --> 00:54:51.645 of a sudden you gotta do that, which is what a lot 1291 00:54:51.645 --> 00:54:53.405 of leaders aren't doing, right? 1292 00:54:53.585 --> 00:54:54.645 So that's a beautiful thing. 1293 00:54:54.985 --> 00:54:57.805 The other thing that transparent choices so great for, 1294 00:54:57.805 --> 00:54:59.405 and I said this very early in the, 1295 00:54:59.405 --> 00:55:02.725 in the conversation today, is you can bring in hundreds 1296 00:55:02.785 --> 00:55:06.005 of people into a decision space efficiently. 1297 00:55:07.065 --> 00:55:11.045 And when you have big change, you want to bring in lots 1298 00:55:11.045 --> 00:55:12.885 of people, not just inside the organization, 1299 00:55:13.105 --> 00:55:14.165 but also outside. 1300 00:55:14.625 --> 00:55:18.245 So I encourage anybody that's facing big change 1301 00:55:18.265 --> 00:55:20.965 and asking a lot of questions to reach out to Stewart 1302 00:55:20.965 --> 00:55:24.125 because transparent choice is just rock and cool. 1303 00:55:24.305 --> 00:55:25.885 It is rock and cool. I love it. 1304 00:55:26.385 --> 00:55:27.885 That's super nice of you to say. 1305 00:55:28.145 --> 00:55:30.005 And, and Mary, thank you for, for that, uh, 1306 00:55:30.005 --> 00:55:31.045 Mary, yes, absolutely. 1307 00:55:31.045 --> 00:55:32.805 In fact, the, the situations 1308 00:55:32.805 --> 00:55:35.925 where Rebecca's used it has not been in a for-profit. 1309 00:55:36.025 --> 00:55:38.565 It was, it was, uh, very much around forestry and, 1310 00:55:38.625 --> 00:55:41.965 and, uh, for mission type organization. 1311 00:55:42.665 --> 00:55:45.885 Um, and, and, and the, you know, the reason, 1312 00:55:46.025 --> 00:55:48.125 the reason the software works by the way is because, 1313 00:55:48.515 --> 00:55:51.045 because we're, we're not super clever, 1314 00:55:51.065 --> 00:55:53.005 but we're clever enough to know that if there's 1315 00:55:53.565 --> 00:55:56.205 research out there that clever people have done 1316 00:55:57.075 --> 00:56:00.845 that tells you how to do something, the smart thing is to go 1317 00:56:00.845 --> 00:56:02.485 and read that research and then build software 1318 00:56:02.485 --> 00:56:03.805 that does it, right? 1319 00:56:03.865 --> 00:56:05.045 So the software works 1320 00:56:05.045 --> 00:56:07.885 because it's built on the psychology research, 1321 00:56:07.885 --> 00:56:10.485 the decision science research into what actually works, 1322 00:56:10.745 --> 00:56:14.205 how groups of people make decisions that stick. 1323 00:56:14.825 --> 00:56:17.365 Uh, and, and I actually have books up on the shelf in front 1324 00:56:17.365 --> 00:56:20.445 of me here, uh, about, about that 1325 00:56:20.465 --> 00:56:22.365 and how bad people are at making decisions 1326 00:56:22.365 --> 00:56:23.565 and why decisions fail. 1327 00:56:23.565 --> 00:56:26.325 We've got those, at least two Nobel laureates up there 1328 00:56:26.555 --> 00:56:28.005 talking about decision making 1329 00:56:28.005 --> 00:56:30.325 and how, how, how it fails, right? 1330 00:56:30.505 --> 00:56:32.765 So, um, it's not rocket science. 1331 00:56:32.835 --> 00:56:35.445 It's well understood, but not well 1332 00:56:35.445 --> 00:56:36.565 understood by enough people. 1333 00:56:37.065 --> 00:56:38.485 So, you know, come get involved 1334 00:56:38.665 --> 00:56:40.005 and that'd be, that'd be awesome. 1335 00:56:40.625 --> 00:56:43.685 Um, so just before we, just 1336 00:56:43.685 --> 00:56:47.685 before we wrap up, um, with the thank yous, um, don't forget 1337 00:56:47.685 --> 00:56:48.925 to book that case for change. 1338 00:56:48.945 --> 00:56:51.805 So if you are that, uh, you know, if you're in that sort 1339 00:56:51.805 --> 00:56:53.365 of portfolio lead role 1340 00:56:53.425 --> 00:56:55.605 or the cha transition, uh, transformation role, 1341 00:56:56.065 --> 00:57:00.845 and you're struggling to get the executives to really focus 1342 00:57:01.305 --> 00:57:05.605 and support you in this change journey the way you need, 1343 00:57:06.075 --> 00:57:07.165 book that case for change, 1344 00:57:07.225 --> 00:57:11.205 and we will help you put together a case for change, right? 1345 00:57:11.355 --> 00:57:13.005 Make, make something, something happen. 1346 00:57:13.665 --> 00:57:15.925 Um, uh, so with that, I, I see 1347 00:57:15.925 --> 00:57:17.205 that all the applause going up. 1348 00:57:17.205 --> 00:57:20.405 Thank you Rebecca, for sharing your thoughts and wisdom. 1349 00:57:21.035 --> 00:57:24.085 That was great. Um, we have, uh, 1350 00:57:24.285 --> 00:57:27.885 a question from Rebecca actually for the audience, um, 1351 00:57:28.215 --> 00:57:31.005 which is, we were talking about, um, 1352 00:57:31.215 --> 00:57:34.045 doing a session on strategy, right? 1353 00:57:34.525 --> 00:57:37.325 Strategy as a word, gets thrown around an awful lot. 1354 00:57:37.945 --> 00:57:41.325 So what is it and what, you know, what do you need 1355 00:57:41.325 --> 00:57:43.805 to know if you're in the change in transformation space? 1356 00:57:43.805 --> 00:57:45.165 What do you need to know about strategy? 1357 00:57:45.625 --> 00:57:48.165 You hear strategic alignment thrown around all the time. 1358 00:57:48.235 --> 00:57:52.795 What on earth does that actually mean? Who does strategy? 1359 00:57:52.805 --> 00:57:56.915 Whose job is it? The answer is all of us, by the way. 1360 00:57:57.815 --> 00:58:01.315 Um, uh, so if you would be interested in that session, 1361 00:58:01.465 --> 00:58:03.955 drop me a quick yes please into the chat, 1362 00:58:04.615 --> 00:58:06.155 and we will, we will make 1363 00:58:06.155 --> 00:58:08.515 that happen at some point in the, in the future. 1364 00:58:09.295 --> 00:58:10.835 Uh, so there you go. We got, we got at least 1365 00:58:10.835 --> 00:58:11.995 one, one little vote in there. 1366 00:58:12.735 --> 00:58:15.995 Um, super. So there's a, there's a few of those coming in so 1367 00:58:15.995 --> 00:58:18.755 that, that feels like something that we, that we need to do. 1368 00:58:19.415 --> 00:58:22.755 Um, and, uh, so we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, uh, 1369 00:58:22.755 --> 00:58:24.795 we'll bring Rebecca into that and maybe one or two others 1370 00:58:25.425 --> 00:58:30.375 because that one, that's one where there are 1371 00:58:30.375 --> 00:58:33.095 as many definitions of strategy as there are people 1372 00:58:33.515 --> 00:58:36.695 who know how to spell it. Uh, 1373 00:58:36.765 --> 00:58:40.135 Well, I just wanna say too, I'm totally open to chatting 1374 00:58:40.135 --> 00:58:41.735 with anybody about your situation. 1375 00:58:41.875 --> 00:58:43.095 I'm fascinated by this stuff. 1376 00:58:43.095 --> 00:58:44.975 Literally, I'm a geek about change. 1377 00:58:45.115 --> 00:58:47.335 So, you know, feel free to reach, reach out. 1378 00:58:47.415 --> 00:58:51.015 I think we put my website and stuff so people can find me. 1379 00:58:51.015 --> 00:58:54.215 Also, the, um, the LinkedIn platform is there. 1380 00:58:54.215 --> 00:58:56.975 So, brilliant. Yeah, I'm really open to talking to anybody. 1381 00:58:57.195 --> 00:58:59.575 And, and Lenora will be sending out an email in the next 1382 00:58:59.575 --> 00:59:01.015 day or so with the recording 1383 00:59:01.155 --> 00:59:04.015 and with the slides, so you can pick up Rebecca's details 1384 00:59:04.205 --> 00:59:07.735 from the slides and, um, you know, do go get a copy 1385 00:59:07.735 --> 00:59:10.535 of the book so you can kind of digest some of these ideas 1386 00:59:11.355 --> 00:59:12.775 on, uh, on your own time. 1387 00:59:13.235 --> 00:59:16.095 Um, definitely worth, definitely worth reading. 1388 00:59:16.475 --> 00:59:17.495 Um, so thank you 1389 00:59:17.495 --> 00:59:18.495 Stuart. Becca, 1390 00:59:18.495 --> 00:59:19.375 thank you as ever. 1391 00:59:19.405 --> 00:59:22.725 It's an absolute pleasure speaking with you for once. 1392 00:59:22.725 --> 00:59:24.325 We've managed to keep it to an hour. 1393 00:59:25.085 --> 00:59:28.085 Um, when we were working together, by the way, um, 1394 00:59:28.675 --> 00:59:30.965 because of the time difference, it was always late at night, 1395 00:59:30.985 --> 00:59:33.525 my time and, and I'd, so I'd go onto a conference call at, 1396 00:59:33.545 --> 00:59:34.845 you know, eight in the eight in the evening, 1397 00:59:35.545 --> 00:59:38.005 and my wife would say, is this with Rebecca? 1398 00:59:38.225 --> 00:59:40.845 I'm like, yes, I'm just gonna bed. 1399 00:59:40.905 --> 00:59:42.925 I'm not even gonna try and wait for you. Right? 1400 00:59:43.985 --> 00:59:45.445 I'd crawl into bed at midnight. 1401 00:59:47.585 --> 00:59:50.405 So we managed to keep it to an hour. Hey, well done. 1402 00:59:50.465 --> 00:59:51.245 So thank you everybody.