WEBVTT

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Uh, my name's Stuart Stuart Easton.

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Uh, I'm the CEO

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and, uh, one of the founders here at Transparent Choice.

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And we do a couple of these webinars every month

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where we dig into a topic that's interesting to, uh,

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business leaders, strategy leaders,

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transformation leaders, and PMOs.

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And our goal is to help that community of people work better

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towards a better future, right?

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It's, it's all about driving those business results,

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driving the transformation, enabling, uh, change to happen.

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That's what this session's all about.

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It's about trying to stop the firefighting.

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And so, uh, what I'd love, uh, for you all

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to do is just give me a quick, uh, a quick

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yay in the chat.

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Uh, go, go and go find the chat now.

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'cause I'm hoping you're all gonna use

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it quite a lot, right?

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Get involved in the, in the conversation.

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So go find the chat now

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and just tell me, you know, in, in terms of fires,

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how hot is yours?

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Right? Is it really, really hot?

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You're on fire and you're

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just running around the whole time?

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Or yeah, you're just feeling a bit warm.

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Or actually, are you feeling okay? Yeah.

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Taylor's feeling a little cozy. Um, uh, annoying.

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Persistent. I like that, Alan.

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Um, excellent.

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Very good, very good. I love it.

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People getting into the spirit.

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Um, we should ask like, which circle of hell? Yeah.

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Which all of them. All of them all at the same time.

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Um, fantastic.

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So, I mean, this is such a common problem from the PMO

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side, right?

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It feels like you're running

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around and everything's on fire.

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From the executive side, it feels like

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those people down there in execution.

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Why, why can't they just get stuff done? Right?

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We told 'em what to do, why can't they just do it?

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And so what we're gonna try

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and do today is figure out how you can reconcile those two,

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uh, those two viewpoints, and see if we can get some ideas

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and advice on how to fix the, the problem, right?

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And, and there is one really big problem.

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There's a bunch of, there's a bunch of problems,

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but there's one really big one that we'll get to, uh,

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I suspect at some point during the conversation, uh,

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around alignment and joining things together.

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Um, so, uh, I'd like to introduce the panelists.

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I, I, I've, I'm immensely lucky in my, um,

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I was gonna say my job, it's kind of a hobby going around,

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speaking at conferences and things.

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I meet amazing people.

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Three of them, three, three of them are on here, uh, today.

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So we're gonna start with Rebecca.

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Rebecca, um, Rebecca Reynolds, um, uh, is a consultant

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who works primarily with, uh, senior executives like the,

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the, the C-suite, the director level people in, uh,

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mostly US federal government agencies,

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helping them figure out, you know, what's our strategy

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and how do we make sure it happens Okay.

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In a, in a nutshell. Fair, fair summary, Rebecca?

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Yep. Yeah. Okay. That's good. We're done.

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So, Rebecca's here, she's gonna bring

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that executive view, right?

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The view from the boardroom.

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'cause she's in the room when the conversations are

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happening, and she's the one trying

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to help the execs figure it out.

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Then from the other side of the, the chasm shouting across

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and throwing his, throwing his, uh, death stars

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is Frederick Casagrande, uh, a really good friend

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of mine out in Dubai, Fred is French,

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yet somehow he's made friends with a Brit.

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Dunno how that happened. Um,

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but Fred has run multiple PMOs over the years.

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Uh, several of them, like multi-billion dollar PMOs.

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Uh, he was on board of the PMO Global Alliance for years, as

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that was kind of really growing.

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Um, uh, before the PMI bought it,

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I think it was Fred, correct?

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Um, so Fred's here in the blue corner representing the PMOs

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in this to, to bring that PMO lens.

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Yeah, he is ready for the fight.

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And Mike, Mike can bring some experience from both sides of

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that, that argument actually in his, in his, uh,

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professional life, uh, ex ex nasa, um, uh,

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super, super smart guy.

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Really, really nice guy as well.

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But the reason he's here is that, uh, for today, um, uh, is

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that, um, Mike happens to be one of the world's premier

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experts on how to get projects

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and transformation programs flying, right?

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Just massively increasing the velocity of delivery.

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Um, so he is written a book on it.

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Oh, I should have picked it up.

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I think I've got one or two of them over there.

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Um, but he, you know, he is written a book on this topic,

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um, and, uh, it's really worth a read for anybody

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who is interested in this.

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He's, it was very wise.

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It's a thin book, which means idiots like me can read it.

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Uh, and it uses simple words.

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Unlike Rebecca's book, which uses very complex words, uh,

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I have to struggle to keep up with Rebecca Subtype.

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Um, so, so Mike's here to help us figure out how

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to bridge the gap and how to give executives what it is

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that they really, really want, right?

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So we've got, we've got those three lenses

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that we're gonna look at this through today.

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So Rebecca, let's start with you and it, and, and folks,

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before we dive in, this is absolutely

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gonna be a conversation.

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Um, it's a conversation, uh, not just

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between the four of us.

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We'd like it to be a conversation with you as well.

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So I've got chat open on a separate screen over here.

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If you drop questions and comments in, I will try

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and work them into the conversation.

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So, Rebecca, what's it like in the boardroom?

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You walk in, execs are not happy, stuff's not happening.

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What's the mood like? What are they saying?

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Well, so I think it's various, right?

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I mean, there are those execs who are struggling themselves

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with how to articulate

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and get clear about what they want to happen, okay?

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So that's a problem in of itself,

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and we've all experienced that down below, right?

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It's confusing, it's not consistent.

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It may not even be strategic, right?

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It feels more like micromanaging.

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So that's a, that's one sort of special kind of problem.

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And that means my work is to really get those folks

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to focus on big strategic outcomes for the organization.

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The other issue is that they have that,

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or think they have that

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and they don't understand why it's not getting down to the,

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you know, to the level of execution.

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I will say, I don't think execs really think about it.

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It takes a very enlightened leader to actually care

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about the experience down there.

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What they're gonna respond to,

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and this is so important to remember, is the issues

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that are constraining the organization from realizing

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those goals and told to execs in a way they can understand

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that is the trick.

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How can we help those, the manager level to

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communicate in such a way that it lands

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and talking about problems

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or, you know, your difficult

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experience is generally not gonna work

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because they don't really care.

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I mean, like I said, it's a very unusual exec who goes,

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I really wanna understand my people's experience.

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They're just trying to get the job done.

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So those are the two sort of, uh, sort

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of sweet spots that I work in.

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So, Fred, what, what, how do you react to that?

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What do you, what do you think? What do you see?

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Well, I think it's, um, it's, it's a real struggle.

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Um, and, you know, we always talk about the communication

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and how it is responsibility of the standard to ensure

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that the message is clearly received

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and understood by the receiver.

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Um, unfortunately, there is clearly a disconnect between the

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planning and delivery layer, which is the PMOs

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and the, the delivery teams, um, at the,

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at the middle management.

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And sometimes even if we talk about the sponsors at the,

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the senior level of the organization

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and the executive leadership, so the executive leadership,

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they think they're clear in their communication to the,

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the lower layers that are supposed to execute.

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But, you know, conversely,

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that middle layer is also not

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very clear in the communication towards the executive.

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So, so I think there is a two way problem here in terms of

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managing and also managing upwards.

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Yeah. Okay.

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So, so, uh, Mike, I wanna bring you in on, on, um,

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'cause I, I think you're gonna have a a,

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a particular thought on this.

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Um, so Stuart Dixon, uh,

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in the chat has said what they should do.

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They being the executive, the leadership team, I think, uh,

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is, uh, get those senior leaders to do a, a day in the life

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of project manager PMO so they understand the issues.

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Mike, what do you think of that?

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I don't think, you know, Stuart,

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so you can say exactly what you, I know, Stuart,

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Your name looks familiar, so I have

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to dig through my LinkedIn, I guess.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. I both, I both, uh, agree

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and disagree vehemently at the same time.

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What I agree with is a little empathy goes a long way.

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And, uh, while I, while, uh,

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certainly my experience is consistent,

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what Rebecca said about, uh, look, even if I'm an executive

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who deeply cares about my people and,

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and they do exist, at the end of the day,

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we're all here to do a job.

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And like, we don't wanna hear a bunch of whining, right?

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So let's put our big boy and big girl pants on

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and get some work done, right?

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Um, the, the way I vehemently disagree with it is

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the best way to engage executives is not on your turf,

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but on theirs, right?

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And that's just true of all humans meet them where they are.

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And I think too many PMs have been trained to,

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to speak in sort of heads down execution, pm speak,

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you know, pm geek speak kind of language,

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and that just, that'll turn off most executives faster than

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anything I've ever seen, right?

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So there, there has to be some way to unite around a set

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of common objectives, which presumably we all share,

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Right?

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Right. Yeah, I mean, uh, uh, uh, hang on.

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I mean, in my experience, most people,

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in most organizations, at every level,

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they're not just turning up for the paycheck,

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they're turning up because they, they wanna,

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they wanna do something valuable, right?

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They wanna do something useful.

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We all wanna be part of a winning team.

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I've never, you know, oh, there

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You go again, it all, it keeps coming back

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to the Super Bowl with you today, Mike.

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That's twice,

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Sorry, I have no dog in that fight.

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But, um, but any case, uh, you know, this, this notion that,

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um, hey, we're, we're all humans.

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And except for the rare sociopath, uh, we do care about, uh,

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team success more than individual success.

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We're not always incentivized this way, way.

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And again, sometimes egos certainly can get in the way,

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but I think, uh, again, if there's a choice

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between individual success

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and being part of just an incredible

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team, the team usually wins.

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And I, you know, go back

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to like the Chicago Bulls of the 1980s.

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A bunch of superstars with giant egos

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who hated each other's guts,

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but they put all that animosity aside

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because they shared a common objective.

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But I think to your point, Mike, you know,

252
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there is one thing that I noticed in particular since the

253
00:11:33.135 --> 00:11:37.045
end of COVID, is there is a, a general

254
00:11:37.815 --> 00:11:41.925
layer of disgruntle across every industry, um,

255
00:11:41.925 --> 00:11:44.885
pretty much every, every country that,

256
00:11:45.195 --> 00:11:47.085
that was not existing before COVID.

257
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So I think it, it's emphasized by the fact

258
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that they felt isolation and that forced reflection.

259
00:11:54.855 --> 00:11:58.395
We have now team members who show up just for the paycheck.

260
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They're not actively going against the project objectives,

261
00:12:01.935 --> 00:12:05.155
but it's like, well, you know, as long

262
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as I cannot get fired, I'm fine.

263
00:12:08.705 --> 00:12:10.795
Well, I think that's not just a result of COVID.

264
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I've seen that for 30 years.

265
00:12:12.875 --> 00:12:16.075
There's always that, that component of the organization.

266
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And I don't, you know, I think it's even worse in

267
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US federal government.

268
00:12:20.655 --> 00:12:22.355
We have a lot of people who just hang out.

269
00:12:23.135 --> 00:12:26.835
But, um, to me, that's just sort of, the cost

270
00:12:26.835 --> 00:12:28.835
of doing business is always gonna be folks like that.

271
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To me, the trick is getting to the people who really,

272
00:12:33.455 --> 00:12:36.195
as Mike said, care about that greater good.

273
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And that greater good has to be communicated and articulated

274
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and discovered, if you will, first

275
00:12:42.815 --> 00:12:44.835
by executive leadership, that's their job.

276
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And without it, everybody else is just treading water.

277
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And there's good reason for people hanging out.

278
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There's nothing that they're being inspired to do.

279
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I mean, nobody's inspired by a to-do list, a checklist,

280
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a bunch of little tasks that's just so boring.

281
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We've got to feel that there's something bigger.

282
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And you know, I tell my execs if you can't and, and,

283
00:13:07.895 --> 00:13:11.235
and, you know, articulate that in a way that is compelling

284
00:13:11.235 --> 00:13:13.355
to your people, you're,

285
00:13:13.355 --> 00:13:15.075
you've lost the, you've lost the whole game. So,

286
00:13:15.295 --> 00:13:17.315
So we were talking a minute ago about kind of shared goals

287
00:13:17.315 --> 00:13:19.875
and things like that, Rebecca, so in the boardroom,

288
00:13:21.525 --> 00:13:24.585
do you think the board, the members of the board, uh,

289
00:13:24.605 --> 00:13:26.265
or the senior leaders of the organization,

290
00:13:26.265 --> 00:13:29.305
generally speaking, are on the same page of

291
00:13:29.305 --> 00:13:31.145
what they're trying to achieve, what their strategy is?

292
00:13:31.145 --> 00:13:32.345
Do they, do they have clarity?

293
00:13:33.165 --> 00:13:35.185
No. No. They're human, like everybody else.

294
00:13:35.185 --> 00:13:37.225
They're very involved in their own little areas.

295
00:13:37.685 --> 00:13:38.785
That's the biggest challenge.

296
00:13:38.785 --> 00:13:42.105
That's one reason I've used decision lens so much is,

297
00:13:42.205 --> 00:13:43.665
excuse me, transparent choice.

298
00:13:43.675 --> 00:13:46.185
Sorry, Stuart. I've used decision lens too,

299
00:13:46.285 --> 00:13:47.625
but Transparent Choice is better.

300
00:13:47.955 --> 00:13:50.225
Great. Um, one of the reasons I use it is

301
00:13:50.225 --> 00:13:51.905
because we need

302
00:13:51.905 --> 00:13:54.585
to get those folks from their very disparate areas

303
00:13:54.675 --> 00:13:56.185
where they have a ton of pressure

304
00:13:56.685 --> 00:14:00.105
and a ton of, you know, sort of world and language.

305
00:14:00.765 --> 00:14:03.105
How do we bring them together so they can really

306
00:14:03.995 --> 00:14:06.945
articulate something that is compelling and interesting?

307
00:14:07.915 --> 00:14:10.365
Yeah, because also, I mean, there is one thing that the,

308
00:14:10.425 --> 00:14:13.425
the regular people like us tend to forget,

309
00:14:13.575 --> 00:14:15.305
Rebecca, board members.

310
00:14:16.455 --> 00:14:18.355
We, we think of them as omnipotent,

311
00:14:18.415 --> 00:14:20.395
but they also report to someone.

312
00:14:21.595 --> 00:14:24.515
Absolutely. You gotta serve somebody, as Bob Dylan says.

313
00:14:25.225 --> 00:14:26.225
Yeah,

314
00:14:26.745 --> 00:14:27.745
Yeah. No, that's

315
00:14:27.745 --> 00:14:28.435
absolutely true.

316
00:14:28.535 --> 00:14:32.675
And, and the, the interesting thing is that, that, um, uh,

317
00:14:32.705 --> 00:14:35.835
okay, so activity time, you know, quick thumbs up.

318
00:14:36.535 --> 00:14:38.755
If you feel in your organization you have stove

319
00:14:38.845 --> 00:14:39.915
pipes, right?

320
00:14:39.935 --> 00:14:42.635
So you've got, you've got people in their own little part

321
00:14:42.635 --> 00:14:44.955
of the organization that care about their part

322
00:14:44.955 --> 00:14:46.835
of the organization and don't care

323
00:14:46.835 --> 00:14:49.235
or understand about other parts of the organization, right?

324
00:14:49.235 --> 00:14:51.035
This is a really common thing,

325
00:14:51.085 --> 00:14:54.805
and it exists right up into the leadership team where,

326
00:14:55.065 --> 00:14:57.165
you know, one part of the leadership team really just

327
00:14:57.165 --> 00:14:58.805
doesn't, doesn't know

328
00:14:58.805 --> 00:15:01.365
or care what other parts of the leadership team are doing.

329
00:15:02.025 --> 00:15:05.245
So, um, so re Rebecca, you've got this really nice analogy

330
00:15:05.245 --> 00:15:06.845
between the, the head and the body, which will come

331
00:15:06.845 --> 00:15:08.805
to a second, but the, the, the leadership team,

332
00:15:08.835 --> 00:15:10.605
like the head, and I'll let you explain it.

333
00:15:10.785 --> 00:15:12.845
The leadership team is like, like the head.

334
00:15:13.465 --> 00:15:15.565
And if, if your head is pointing all is trying

335
00:15:15.565 --> 00:15:17.085
to lead you in lots of different directions,

336
00:15:17.795 --> 00:15:19.605
then the body can't deliver, right?

337
00:15:19.625 --> 00:15:23.405
So, so we're getting to, one of the, the biggest causes

338
00:15:23.405 --> 00:15:28.325
of the, the firefighting down at the execution level is the,

339
00:15:28.705 --> 00:15:30.685
the fundamentally your leadership are trying

340
00:15:30.685 --> 00:15:31.885
to take you in different directions.

341
00:15:32.985 --> 00:15:35.445
And as a consequence, there's no clarity about what we need

342
00:15:35.445 --> 00:15:38.925
to do and how much, you know, and, and,

343
00:15:38.925 --> 00:15:41.125
and where to put the resources to get the most value.

344
00:15:41.385 --> 00:15:42.765
And so everybody keeps trying to pull the,

345
00:15:42.835 --> 00:15:44.885
pull the resources in different directions,

346
00:15:45.345 --> 00:15:47.965
and that, that, that can lead to a lot of frustration

347
00:15:47.965 --> 00:15:49.765
and that, that feeling of firefighting.

348
00:15:50.305 --> 00:15:53.005
So, so Rebecca, why don't you just kind, kind of talk us

349
00:15:53.005 --> 00:15:56.365
through for a second your, your, um, head and body

350
00:15:56.425 --> 00:15:57.805
and neck analogy.

351
00:15:58.045 --> 00:15:59.445
'cause I think it's really kind of interesting

352
00:15:59.645 --> 00:16:00.605
'cause we're, we're gonna talk about the

353
00:16:00.605 --> 00:16:01.525
neck quite a bit, I think.

354
00:16:02.405 --> 00:16:04.735
Well, I just always say that the, like you said,

355
00:16:04.905 --> 00:16:06.615
exact team is like the head.

356
00:16:07.035 --> 00:16:09.455
And so the head is supposed to be on top

357
00:16:09.475 --> 00:16:11.415
and supposed to be creating clarity

358
00:16:11.755 --> 00:16:14.375
and a direction mean, right?

359
00:16:14.795 --> 00:16:18.495
The body's supposed to execute, and if there's no neck

360
00:16:18.555 --> 00:16:21.535
or the neck is blocked, we've got a head, you know,

361
00:16:21.535 --> 00:16:23.375
a disembodied head roaming around,

362
00:16:24.195 --> 00:16:26.055
and, uh, a body that's just sort of,

363
00:16:26.115 --> 00:16:27.415
you know, trying to do whatever.

364
00:16:27.995 --> 00:16:31.655
So I always think of, you know, let's build a really strong,

365
00:16:31.745 --> 00:16:34.775
clear neck, which is the communication flow between the two.

366
00:16:35.195 --> 00:16:37.015
And that is from both sides.

367
00:16:37.355 --> 00:16:39.695
I'm, I do think that, I mean,

368
00:16:39.695 --> 00:16:42.695
my job when I go into the execs is to say

369
00:16:42.695 --> 00:16:44.735
to them, are you clear?

370
00:16:45.235 --> 00:16:48.015
No. Are you communicating in a way

371
00:16:48.015 --> 00:16:49.375
that your people will understand?

372
00:16:49.585 --> 00:16:53.495
Often not. So the communication, right, goes both ways.

373
00:16:53.635 --> 00:16:56.735
As, as, um, Frederick said, um, and,

374
00:16:57.035 --> 00:16:59.495
but when I'm working in the, you know, with the execs,

375
00:17:00.035 --> 00:17:02.695
I'm talking to them about how they're pushing down.

376
00:17:02.695 --> 00:17:04.815
When I'm talking down here, I'm talking about

377
00:17:04.815 --> 00:17:05.855
what are the questions?

378
00:17:06.315 --> 00:17:09.535
And I think the questions is the powerful way

379
00:17:09.915 --> 00:17:14.135
for the lower levels to get across to, to the upper levels,

380
00:17:14.475 --> 00:17:16.935
asking questions that are not inflammatory,

381
00:17:17.355 --> 00:17:19.775
but are actually based in real curiosity

382
00:17:19.915 --> 00:17:22.655
and trying to get what people need to move.

383
00:17:24.845 --> 00:17:26.165
Brilliant. And I'll add that, uh,

384
00:17:26.365 --> 00:17:29.085
a great tactic you can employ to arrive at

385
00:17:29.085 --> 00:17:30.365
what Rebecca just described.

386
00:17:30.465 --> 00:17:32.965
If you're a senior PM or a PMO leader

387
00:17:32.965 --> 00:17:37.325
or aspire to be one someday is okay, uh, in order

388
00:17:37.345 --> 00:17:40.325
to achieve X, assuming X is clear, we must,

389
00:17:41.325 --> 00:17:44.855
because often the execs don't understand the, the, the part

390
00:17:44.855 --> 00:17:46.475
after we must, right?

391
00:17:46.475 --> 00:17:49.285
They just feel like, well, we have a bunch of people, like,

392
00:17:49.545 --> 00:17:51.405
we have a bunch of money, let's go get it done.

393
00:17:52.185 --> 00:17:55.485
Uh, okay, well, in order to achieve those objectives, here's

394
00:17:55.485 --> 00:17:56.765
what must be become true.

395
00:17:58.035 --> 00:18:01.535
Uh, that then shifts the conversation to, Hey,

396
00:18:01.535 --> 00:18:03.135
we already gave you the priorities and the clarity.

397
00:18:03.235 --> 00:18:07.175
Now go execute. And don't bother me till it's done to, ah,

398
00:18:07.245 --> 00:18:08.415
okay, we're in this together.

399
00:18:08.795 --> 00:18:10.535
We, we have a shared set of objectives,

400
00:18:10.915 --> 00:18:12.895
but it has to be something we can achieve.

401
00:18:12.895 --> 00:18:15.775
Realistically, that doesn't mean unambitious.

402
00:18:16.135 --> 00:18:17.815
I think it can be absolutely lofty

403
00:18:17.875 --> 00:18:21.375
and should be ambitious, uh, but still achievable.

404
00:18:22.225 --> 00:18:26.385
Yeah. I also wanna say, just put a pin in culture

405
00:18:27.135 --> 00:18:31.665
that I think execs oftentimes aren't really thinking

406
00:18:31.835 --> 00:18:35.065
about how important their culture is,

407
00:18:35.125 --> 00:18:37.425
the culture they're in, particularly when that CEO

408
00:18:37.445 --> 00:18:39.945
or any of the C-suite is moving around so much.

409
00:18:40.575 --> 00:18:42.985
Each entity has its own culture based on

410
00:18:42.985 --> 00:18:45.865
where it is in the world, based on its own history.

411
00:18:46.485 --> 00:18:48.825
And when we're communicating big things,

412
00:18:48.825 --> 00:18:50.865
there's particularly things that are gonna shift

413
00:18:51.285 --> 00:18:53.305
or be in a very innovative, or,

414
00:18:53.365 --> 00:18:55.385
or big, like Mike was saying, visionary.

415
00:18:56.005 --> 00:18:58.185
We need to find a way to communicate it

416
00:18:58.535 --> 00:18:59.665
that fits the culture.

417
00:19:00.085 --> 00:19:03.425
And I mean, you know, culturally, strategy every day, right?

418
00:19:04.165 --> 00:19:07.585
So I think that's another piece, becoming aware of culture,

419
00:19:07.585 --> 00:19:09.465
which is really hard because it's like trying

420
00:19:09.465 --> 00:19:11.545
to become aware of your own, you know,

421
00:19:12.195 --> 00:19:13.625
world from the inside out.

422
00:19:13.885 --> 00:19:14.885
So,

423
00:19:15.125 --> 00:19:17.065
So, so let's bring it, let's bring it down a level

424
00:19:17.085 --> 00:19:19.105
so when the head's a bit disorganized, doesn't know

425
00:19:19.105 --> 00:19:22.225
where it wants to go, and you know, your left ears trying

426
00:19:22.225 --> 00:19:23.665
to take you this way, and your right

427
00:19:23.665 --> 00:19:24.785
ear is trying to take you that way.

428
00:19:25.445 --> 00:19:27.745
Um, Fred, what does that do in the portfolio?

429
00:19:27.745 --> 00:19:29.065
What does that do to the PMO?

430
00:19:29.065 --> 00:19:31.545
What does that mean in terms of workload

431
00:19:31.725 --> 00:19:34.145
and getting stuff done and delivering?

432
00:19:34.735 --> 00:19:36.945
Well see, I mean, every time there is one priority

433
00:19:36.945 --> 00:19:37.945
that is identified

434
00:19:37.945 --> 00:19:41.525
or perceived that understood, uh, you, you have to picture

435
00:19:42.425 --> 00:19:45.885
the portfolio of a, of a medium to large organization

436
00:19:46.185 --> 00:19:48.165
as a, a boat.

437
00:19:48.355 --> 00:19:52.295
Like, you know, the Titanic, right?

438
00:19:53.725 --> 00:19:55.095
It's a very heavy structure.

439
00:19:55.395 --> 00:19:56.615
It goes in one direction,

440
00:19:56.675 --> 00:19:58.495
and by the time you change the direction,

441
00:19:59.355 --> 00:20:03.455
it takes a long time for the boat to actually go towards

442
00:20:04.105 --> 00:20:05.375
where you, you steer.

443
00:20:06.475 --> 00:20:08.055
Um, and if there is,

444
00:20:08.315 --> 00:20:10.415
if there is a limited alignment at the top,

445
00:20:10.475 --> 00:20:12.295
and then suddenly there are two executives

446
00:20:12.395 --> 00:20:14.695
or a communication coming from the top

447
00:20:15.165 --> 00:20:16.535
that goes in two directions,

448
00:20:17.735 --> 00:20:19.875
all we are doing is we we're turning the wheel,

449
00:20:19.975 --> 00:20:21.195
but the boat never moves.

450
00:20:22.135 --> 00:20:24.795
And one thing that we know for sure at our level,

451
00:20:25.375 --> 00:20:27.115
we are not going in the right direction,

452
00:20:27.295 --> 00:20:29.075
but we don't know how to go in the right direction

453
00:20:29.075 --> 00:20:31.875
because we don't know where the right direction is.

454
00:20:33.415 --> 00:20:35.435
And, and so Mike, what impact does that have?

455
00:20:35.535 --> 00:20:37.395
And I'm thinking of your little, um,

456
00:20:38.495 --> 00:20:39.715
you know, your root cause thing.

457
00:20:40.015 --> 00:20:42.755
Um, what impact does that have on your ability to actually

458
00:20:43.585 --> 00:20:46.235
deliver, um, business results?

459
00:20:48.125 --> 00:20:49.205
I mean, you know, having played

460
00:20:49.205 --> 00:20:51.565
that game more times than I, than I can count.

461
00:20:52.305 --> 00:20:54.805
Uh, you basically have no choice,

462
00:20:55.265 --> 00:20:57.085
but like, if you're in the hot seat, PMO leader,

463
00:20:57.085 --> 00:20:59.605
senior pm whatever, you have almost no choice

464
00:20:59.825 --> 00:21:03.725
but to choose, uh, which executive to listen to

465
00:21:03.725 --> 00:21:05.405
and which one to ignore, right?

466
00:21:05.745 --> 00:21:08.125
So you're picking the one usually, uh,

467
00:21:08.195 --> 00:21:10.125
that has more power, right?

468
00:21:10.465 --> 00:21:12.965
So if I have to anger somebody, I wanna anger the person

469
00:21:12.965 --> 00:21:14.605
that has the least power, right?

470
00:21:14.865 --> 00:21:17.485
Or at least the least power to harm me in my career, right?

471
00:21:18.305 --> 00:21:21.165
Um, and that's a, that's a terrible reality,

472
00:21:21.185 --> 00:21:24.125
but one that I think executives don't quite understand.

473
00:21:24.695 --> 00:21:26.385
Like, I don't think they realize that

474
00:21:26.755 --> 00:21:29.585
until they find a better way, like using transparent choice

475
00:21:30.045 --> 00:21:33.345
to harmonize the, the, the disparate points of view

476
00:21:33.345 --> 00:21:34.905
that are natural in any group of humans.

477
00:21:35.685 --> 00:21:38.345
Um, but, but you gotta harmonize that so

478
00:21:38.345 --> 00:21:41.945
that it comes across as cogent and complete and clear.

479
00:21:42.685 --> 00:21:44.905
And I, I know that this is priority number one,

480
00:21:44.905 --> 00:21:45.945
and that's priority number two,

481
00:21:45.965 --> 00:21:47.065
and that's priority number three.

482
00:21:47.565 --> 00:21:50.105
And we can get it all done within our resource constraints.

483
00:21:50.685 --> 00:21:53.185
Um, but not just by, uh, you know,

484
00:21:53.185 --> 00:21:54.425
going into mad scramble mode.

485
00:21:55.345 --> 00:21:56.365
And, and when you go into mad

486
00:21:56.365 --> 00:21:57.645
scramble, what, what, what happens?

487
00:21:58.675 --> 00:22:00.525
Nothing, Right?

488
00:22:00.755 --> 00:22:03.325
Very, very little maybe is a better way. A lot of

489
00:22:03.325 --> 00:22:04.805
Ways of time and energy,

490
00:22:05.685 --> 00:22:09.015
What exactly what happens is burnout, it's turn, uh,

491
00:22:09.295 --> 00:22:10.815
turnover, it's, you know, people leaving.

492
00:22:10.885 --> 00:22:13.975
Yeah. It's what what happens is a real catastrophe

493
00:22:13.975 --> 00:22:16.735
for the organization, but it's only when you need

494
00:22:16.755 --> 00:22:20.535
to recover from that stage that you start realizing

495
00:22:20.555 --> 00:22:21.815
how much damage has been done.

496
00:22:23.855 --> 00:22:25.695
I also wanna point out, since we're talking

497
00:22:25.875 --> 00:22:30.335
to folks at the PMO level more, um, the most powerful thing

498
00:22:30.485 --> 00:22:34.775
that the body can do is to feed up through the neck

499
00:22:34.775 --> 00:22:39.695
to the execs large scale questions that help execs

500
00:22:39.695 --> 00:22:41.535
to see something they hadn't seen before.

501
00:22:42.235 --> 00:22:45.655
And I had, I've had this many times with clients

502
00:22:45.705 --> 00:22:49.535
where they were frustrated, complaining, seeing things, oh,

503
00:22:49.635 --> 00:22:50.775
why don't the execs see this?

504
00:22:50.955 --> 00:22:52.975
And I'm like, because you're not telling them

505
00:22:53.115 --> 00:22:54.375
and they need to hear from you,

506
00:22:54.435 --> 00:22:56.215
and they don't need to hear it as a complaint.

507
00:22:56.475 --> 00:22:59.015
We all know that. Nobody likes people

508
00:22:59.015 --> 00:23:00.095
who come in and complain.

509
00:23:00.685 --> 00:23:02.135
What they need to hear is

510
00:23:02.605 --> 00:23:06.055
what this gap in their view is causing.

511
00:23:06.675 --> 00:23:09.215
And that could either be a lack of opportunity, a loss

512
00:23:09.215 --> 00:23:12.815
of money, uh, you know, a a as Frederick just said, a a,

513
00:23:12.935 --> 00:23:14.095
a problem with morale.

514
00:23:14.555 --> 00:23:15.975
If we can speak to them

515
00:23:16.115 --> 00:23:19.375
and show them from where we are seeing things

516
00:23:19.375 --> 00:23:21.895
that have a large impact on their worldview,

517
00:23:22.125 --> 00:23:24.775
that can actually influence the strategy

518
00:23:24.875 --> 00:23:26.775
and the vision of the C-suite.

519
00:23:27.155 --> 00:23:30.775
And I think that's the kind of manager that execs

520
00:23:31.315 --> 00:23:34.895
really appreciate, as long as it's done, you know,

521
00:23:35.085 --> 00:23:38.015
authentically questions that are sort of snide

522
00:23:38.015 --> 00:23:39.335
and why didn't, you know, you know,

523
00:23:39.335 --> 00:23:41.215
that kind of thing doesn't work. So,

524
00:23:41.995 --> 00:23:44.215
But, But, but, but, you know, I mean, sorry, Stuart

525
00:23:45.505 --> 00:23:48.325
saying at, at the beginning of this, uh, the conversation

526
00:23:48.795 --> 00:23:50.965
that no one wants to be not on the winning team.

527
00:23:52.945 --> 00:23:55.605
That's true for, for, for the working level,

528
00:23:55.665 --> 00:23:58.205
but it's also true for the executives.

529
00:23:58.325 --> 00:23:59.845
I mean, there is no board member

530
00:23:59.905 --> 00:24:02.085
who wants the company who's on the board of to fail.

531
00:24:03.475 --> 00:24:07.945
So rather than thinking either they are,

532
00:24:08.035 --> 00:24:09.905
quote unquote, and pardon my French, right,

533
00:24:09.925 --> 00:24:11.385
I'm gonna be candid, they're morons

534
00:24:12.045 --> 00:24:14.185
or they are incompetent, they're not,

535
00:24:15.125 --> 00:24:17.015
they think they're doing the best that they can.

536
00:24:17.555 --> 00:24:21.295
And sometimes we need to force this feedback loop to them

537
00:24:21.355 --> 00:24:23.055
and tell them, well, hang on a minute.

538
00:24:23.855 --> 00:24:26.555
And it can be an elevator pitch, it can be a conversation,

539
00:24:26.575 --> 00:24:28.315
you know, in a corridor it can be anything.

540
00:24:29.035 --> 00:24:32.735
But sometimes I, I see some of my C levels, uh, at, at work.

541
00:24:33.855 --> 00:24:36.015
I literally have 30 seconds windows with them.

542
00:24:36.695 --> 00:24:37.695
I have to make it count.

543
00:24:39.895 --> 00:24:42.195
So, so, uh, rain asked a question about

544
00:24:42.375 --> 00:24:45.075
how do you get the executives from providing projects

545
00:24:45.075 --> 00:24:48.155
basically loudest, you know, he shouts loudest wins.

546
00:24:48.855 --> 00:24:50.515
And instead providing the strategy

547
00:24:50.535 --> 00:24:53.595
and letting the prioritization process identify the projects

548
00:24:53.595 --> 00:24:55.035
that meet the strategy best.

549
00:24:55.435 --> 00:24:56.275
I think that's a really

550
00:24:56.285 --> 00:24:58.875
insightful question, rain, thank you for that.

551
00:24:59.615 --> 00:25:03.675
Um, and, uh, I could, at this point,

552
00:25:03.795 --> 00:25:06.195
I could launch into a whole thing about transparent choice.

553
00:25:06.355 --> 00:25:07.395
'cause that's what we do all day long.

554
00:25:07.395 --> 00:25:08.755
That's, that's what our software does.

555
00:25:09.375 --> 00:25:11.795
But I, I think the question isn't about the tool.

556
00:25:11.795 --> 00:25:14.595
If you walk in and say, you guys suck.

557
00:25:14.695 --> 00:25:17.075
We need a tool, I guarantee

558
00:25:17.185 --> 00:25:19.155
that will land like a lead balloon, right?

559
00:25:20.095 --> 00:25:22.875
Um, so how do you do that?

560
00:25:23.295 --> 00:25:24.715
How do you have that conversation?

561
00:25:24.735 --> 00:25:28.555
So Rebecca, what would you like to hear from the body

562
00:25:30.425 --> 00:25:31.915
when the head's confused, right?

563
00:25:32.015 --> 00:25:34.835
How do you, how do you help them put in place that process?

564
00:25:35.905 --> 00:25:38.645
So what I, and I just said it in the chat, tore, um, it's

565
00:25:39.245 --> 00:25:41.005
absolutely correct what you're saying.

566
00:25:41.365 --> 00:25:44.765
I want people to remember, a lot of execs have gotten there

567
00:25:45.155 --> 00:25:47.325
because they were good managers, right?

568
00:25:47.945 --> 00:25:50.765
And they weren't given any clear training or,

569
00:25:50.985 --> 00:25:53.925
or, you know, understanding of what the difference is

570
00:25:53.925 --> 00:25:57.805
between just projects and strategy.

571
00:25:58.065 --> 00:26:00.525
And that's just a crime

572
00:26:00.525 --> 00:26:02.805
because they're up there micromanaging, right?

573
00:26:02.865 --> 00:26:06.045
And it's terrible. So what I recommend is

574
00:26:06.045 --> 00:26:09.965
that people start asking them questions about things

575
00:26:10.155 --> 00:26:12.765
that strategy covers, right?

576
00:26:12.955 --> 00:26:16.405
Instead of, you know, which, which project is more important

577
00:26:16.405 --> 00:26:20.165
to you, asking about longer term goals

578
00:26:20.235 --> 00:26:22.445
that those projects are trying to accomplish.

579
00:26:23.145 --> 00:26:25.925
That's, that's where leadership's mind should be.

580
00:26:25.925 --> 00:26:27.565
And if somebody, if people are down here

581
00:26:27.585 --> 00:26:29.005
asking those questions mm-hmm.

582
00:26:29.355 --> 00:26:31.445
They're going to have to think that way, right?

583
00:26:31.915 --> 00:26:34.885
Love it. So, so Mike, you've got a, a technique

584
00:26:34.885 --> 00:26:37.045
that you use, a tool that you use, uh,

585
00:26:37.155 --> 00:26:38.365
when you're having this conversation.

586
00:26:38.585 --> 00:26:40.245
So part of it is about talking

587
00:26:40.265 --> 00:26:42.165
to the execs about their problems, right?

588
00:26:42.165 --> 00:26:46.125
So it's not about, oh, life down here is so hard

589
00:26:46.285 --> 00:26:47.485
'cause you guys dunno what you're doing, right?

590
00:26:47.485 --> 00:26:50.285
That's not the approach. It's about saying, Hey guys,

591
00:26:50.885 --> 00:26:53.045
I know you're really fed up, that projects take too long

592
00:26:53.045 --> 00:26:55.285
and cost too much, and they never deliver what you want.

593
00:26:56.105 --> 00:26:58.725
So why don't we do some root cause analysis.

594
00:26:58.725 --> 00:27:01.085
So when you do that, Mike, and you do your death spiral,

595
00:27:01.385 --> 00:27:04.565
and then you're, um, uh, whatever, the opposite

596
00:27:04.565 --> 00:27:05.925
of a death spiral is a life

597
00:27:05.925 --> 00:27:06.925
Spiral.

598
00:27:06.955 --> 00:27:09.885
Yeah. There you go. Um, so, so why don't you talk us

599
00:27:09.885 --> 00:27:10.885
through that a little bit, because

600
00:27:10.885 --> 00:27:11.925
that's really interesting.

601
00:27:11.925 --> 00:27:13.885
So, so if you talk to the execs about, Hey,

602
00:27:14.075 --> 00:27:15.565
your problem is 1, 2, 3,

603
00:27:16.465 --> 00:27:19.365
and then help them understand what the root cause

604
00:27:19.365 --> 00:27:21.125
of those problems is.

605
00:27:21.225 --> 00:27:23.165
So, Mike, do you wanna talk a little bit about that?

606
00:27:23.325 --> 00:27:24.325
I should have warned you

607
00:27:24.325 --> 00:27:25.725
because you might, you might have pulled one up,

608
00:27:25.825 --> 00:27:27.725
but I just, just give us the, the high,

609
00:27:28.235 --> 00:27:29.805
high idea, high pitch. Yeah, no,

610
00:27:30.465 --> 00:27:32.565
You know, this, this, you know, vicious

611
00:27:32.865 --> 00:27:34.325
to virtuous cycle stuff

612
00:27:34.385 --> 00:27:37.685
and how to build, you know, complex, logical cause

613
00:27:37.685 --> 00:27:39.325
and effect relationships and,

614
00:27:39.865 --> 00:27:40.645
and, you know, systems

615
00:27:40.765 --> 00:27:42.405
dynamics, modeling and all this stuff.

616
00:27:42.825 --> 00:27:45.805
It, we, we tend to make it sound fancier than it's right.

617
00:27:46.225 --> 00:27:48.965
Uh, it's all about, um, you know, many of us have heard

618
00:27:48.965 --> 00:27:50.605
of the five why's, right?

619
00:27:50.625 --> 00:27:53.845
If we just ask why, you know, it could be five times,

620
00:27:53.905 --> 00:27:56.085
it could be, uh, maybe even a little more than five times,

621
00:27:56.785 --> 00:27:59.125
but it not pro it's probably not a thousand times.

622
00:28:00.045 --> 00:28:02.145
Uh, so some manageable number of saying, well,

623
00:28:02.205 --> 00:28:04.425
why do projects cost so long, uh, cost so much

624
00:28:04.425 --> 00:28:05.425
and take so long, right?

625
00:28:05.925 --> 00:28:07.585
Um, why is it hard

626
00:28:07.585 --> 00:28:09.185
to get a clear sense of priorities around here?

627
00:28:09.725 --> 00:28:12.025
Why do we have three number ones, right?

628
00:28:12.605 --> 00:28:16.465
And how might we, uh, by the way, that's another little tip.

629
00:28:16.985 --> 00:28:19.185
Anything, any question that you start with, how might we,

630
00:28:19.765 --> 00:28:22.515
uh, is automatically a good question, right?

631
00:28:22.545 --> 00:28:24.075
Because you're already assuming

632
00:28:24.145 --> 00:28:25.715
that we share something in common

633
00:28:26.135 --> 00:28:28.075
and we're trying to go wrestle with some challenge

634
00:28:28.075 --> 00:28:29.315
or problem and solve it together.

635
00:28:30.215 --> 00:28:33.715
And if you, if you frame everything that way, uh,

636
00:28:33.775 --> 00:28:35.955
you will win allies every way you go.

637
00:28:36.575 --> 00:28:37.595
And so if you say, well,

638
00:28:37.815 --> 00:28:38.915
how might we make sure

639
00:28:38.965 --> 00:28:40.475
we're actually attacking the root cause?

640
00:28:41.215 --> 00:28:43.795
Um, the classic example is, you know, uh,

641
00:28:44.435 --> 00:28:46.115
software quality in your code base might be

642
00:28:46.115 --> 00:28:47.355
suffering more and more over time.

643
00:28:47.365 --> 00:28:50.915
Every project you get done seems to degrade it further, uh,

644
00:28:50.915 --> 00:28:52.035
when the opposite should be true.

645
00:28:53.015 --> 00:28:55.235
Uh, so a lot of organizations say, well, we need

646
00:28:55.235 --> 00:28:56.235
to get serious about quality.

647
00:28:56.335 --> 00:28:58.355
We need to have a quality assurance initiative

648
00:28:58.415 --> 00:29:00.075
or a quality control thing.

649
00:29:00.365 --> 00:29:01.995
We're gonna go all learn about quality

650
00:29:01.995 --> 00:29:03.195
techniques, blah, blah, blah.

651
00:29:03.695 --> 00:29:06.515
But if the root cause isn't poor quality practices,

652
00:29:06.855 --> 00:29:08.955
but it's this sense of overload, right?

653
00:29:09.295 --> 00:29:10.955
And just get more done

654
00:29:11.295 --> 00:29:14.155
and don't worry about the code base getting all messed up

655
00:29:14.155 --> 00:29:16.115
as we go, well, then, uh,

656
00:29:16.175 --> 00:29:17.755
we will never get outta that, right?

657
00:29:17.895 --> 00:29:21.325
No, no quality initiative will ever solve that, right?

658
00:29:21.345 --> 00:29:24.765
So this, uh, just taking a, a little bit of extra time

659
00:29:24.785 --> 00:29:28.285
and energy, having these healthy conversations, um,

660
00:29:28.355 --> 00:29:31.485
like Rebecca was talking about, to say, Hey, guys, uh,

661
00:29:31.505 --> 00:29:32.965
we all share the same objectives here.

662
00:29:32.965 --> 00:29:35.845
How might we actually go achieve them together that can,

663
00:29:36.385 --> 00:29:37.765
uh, get right to the root cause?

664
00:29:38.285 --> 00:29:40.645
I would also just add on to what Mike's saying, that

665
00:29:41.525 --> 00:29:44.975
I find that most of the time, if not

666
00:29:46.115 --> 00:29:48.815
all the time, the real problem is not

667
00:29:49.165 --> 00:29:50.375
that, that kind of thing.

668
00:29:50.645 --> 00:29:53.735
It's, it's a lack of understanding of where we're headed

669
00:29:54.275 --> 00:29:56.215
and how that prioritization.

670
00:29:56.215 --> 00:29:58.615
That's why transparent choice is so important.

671
00:29:59.915 --> 00:30:01.575
We have to know where to say no.

672
00:30:02.075 --> 00:30:04.335
And we don't like to say no as adults.

673
00:30:04.395 --> 00:30:06.215
We don't, we like to say, oh, yes, yes,

674
00:30:06.295 --> 00:30:07.615
I can do everything, but that's not true.

675
00:30:07.995 --> 00:30:10.135
We can't do everything and why would we wanna do everything?

676
00:30:10.155 --> 00:30:12.095
It just thins us out into nothing.

677
00:30:12.635 --> 00:30:15.375
So we wanna be really good at a few things,

678
00:30:15.515 --> 00:30:18.735
and leadership has to decide that because,

679
00:30:19.075 --> 00:30:21.215
and they have to have the rigor to hold it to,

680
00:30:21.715 --> 00:30:24.135
and that is something that I think we also see is

681
00:30:24.135 --> 00:30:28.015
that there's a lack of rigor in when we've chosen, you know,

682
00:30:28.015 --> 00:30:30.295
it's like somebody comes in with another great idea

683
00:30:30.315 --> 00:30:32.255
and the head gets turned toward it, right?

684
00:30:32.795 --> 00:30:34.335
So it's it's

685
00:30:34.755 --> 00:30:36.655
The flavor of the month, Yes.

686
00:30:36.675 --> 00:30:39.055
The flavor of the month. And also the new leader comes in

687
00:30:39.055 --> 00:30:41.935
and has to make his or her mark on everything.

688
00:30:42.035 --> 00:30:44.935
And it's just like, you know, to me, the strategies

689
00:30:44.935 --> 00:30:48.655
that are really important are the ones that endure beyond

690
00:30:49.605 --> 00:30:51.265
the, the tenure of the, of the leaders.

691
00:30:51.685 --> 00:30:53.745
So I had a, an interesting conversation a couple

692
00:30:53.745 --> 00:30:57.345
of weeks ago with a guy called Offer, offer, offer, offer.

693
00:30:57.925 --> 00:30:59.305
Oh, I can't remember his surname right now.

694
00:30:59.305 --> 00:31:00.745
It doesn't matter. But he is a,

695
00:31:00.865 --> 00:31:05.585
a university professor in Australia, uh, who focuses on, uh,

696
00:31:05.735 --> 00:31:08.145
project management, portfolio management type issues

697
00:31:08.145 --> 00:31:09.225
and strategy execution.

698
00:31:09.925 --> 00:31:14.815
And, uh, he fairly recently published a paper that looked at

699
00:31:16.925 --> 00:31:20.105
what drives Project Success.

700
00:31:20.105 --> 00:31:21.185
And by project success,

701
00:31:21.585 --> 00:31:24.345
I very specifically mean the organization achieves some

702
00:31:24.345 --> 00:31:25.945
value, right?

703
00:31:27.285 --> 00:31:32.115
And what he found is that there is a threshold

704
00:31:32.115 --> 00:31:35.425
of project competence that you need, right?

705
00:31:35.885 --> 00:31:37.745
But sometimes that threshold's not very high.

706
00:31:38.485 --> 00:31:39.865
In fact, often it's not very high.

707
00:31:41.655 --> 00:31:45.275
And the thing that really drove, say again, Mike,

708
00:31:45.715 --> 00:31:46.715
I don't think it has to be high.

709
00:31:46.755 --> 00:31:48.915
I think average humans can be set up

710
00:31:48.915 --> 00:31:51.035
to great stuff, but keep going. Sorry. Well,

711
00:31:51.215 --> 00:31:52.795
So we'll come to that in a sec, I think.

712
00:31:53.135 --> 00:31:57.435
But so, so the thing that really drove success

713
00:31:58.655 --> 00:32:00.715
was having a clear definition of what the value is,

714
00:32:00.715 --> 00:32:02.195
and then focusing on delivering the value.

715
00:32:03.125 --> 00:32:04.525
I mean, it's kind of simple, right?

716
00:32:05.145 --> 00:32:07.045
And the same thing's true at the portfolio level.

717
00:32:07.065 --> 00:32:08.205
If you, you know, if you try

718
00:32:08.205 --> 00:32:10.925
and do too much, you do less, you don't do more.

719
00:32:11.505 --> 00:32:13.605
So there's, I I call it the, so there's a bunch

720
00:32:13.605 --> 00:32:17.245
of researchers, a a rule that I call the, the rule

721
00:32:17.245 --> 00:32:18.605
of fifties, right?

722
00:32:18.625 --> 00:32:20.845
So if you cut your project load by 50%,

723
00:32:20.955 --> 00:32:22.925
your velocity will go up by 50%

724
00:32:23.265 --> 00:32:25.515
and you'll actually deliver more, right?

725
00:32:25.975 --> 00:32:27.355
And Mike, that's one of the things that you do.

726
00:32:27.355 --> 00:32:28.715
And whenever you go into a client, right?

727
00:32:29.825 --> 00:32:32.915
Yeah. In fact, I would say it's more like, uh, you, you,

728
00:32:32.915 --> 00:32:35.475
you, you cut the, you cut the congestion in half

729
00:32:35.535 --> 00:32:36.755
and you'll double the throughput,

730
00:32:37.365 --> 00:32:38.715
which makes sense if you've ever been

731
00:32:38.715 --> 00:32:39.740
stuck in, in a traffic jet.

732
00:32:40.155 --> 00:32:42.805
Yeah. So, so, so that question of rains about

733
00:32:42.805 --> 00:32:44.765
how do you get execs to pay attention to

734
00:32:44.765 --> 00:32:45.965
that is, is really critical.

735
00:32:46.345 --> 00:32:49.325
So, um, I, I think so, yeah, Fred,

736
00:32:49.425 --> 00:32:50.425
Go ahead. I, I,

737
00:32:50.425 --> 00:32:53.925
I have the, the billion dollar question for all

738
00:32:53.925 --> 00:32:56.125
of us at the execution and, and planning

739
00:32:56.125 --> 00:32:59.645
and delivery layer, how do we get access to those guides

740
00:32:59.665 --> 00:33:00.765
so we can actually tell them?

741
00:33:01.645 --> 00:33:04.485
I was about to come to you to ask that question, right?

742
00:33:04.585 --> 00:33:06.485
So for, because Fred's here to represent

743
00:33:06.485 --> 00:33:07.765
that PMO lens, right?

744
00:33:08.185 --> 00:33:09.725
And it's not always easy,

745
00:33:09.785 --> 00:33:12.765
and it's, Fred, would you say it's culture dependent?

746
00:33:13.175 --> 00:33:14.175
Would,

747
00:33:15.385 --> 00:33:19.805
I mean, it's certainly is more emphasized in some parts

748
00:33:19.805 --> 00:33:23.685
of the world, and I would say in every, in every, uh,

749
00:33:24.125 --> 00:33:27.965
geographical culture where the formal, uh, hierarchy

750
00:33:29.615 --> 00:33:31.915
is, is, you know, more important.

751
00:33:32.135 --> 00:33:34.355
Uh, anytime that you have a culture that has a,

752
00:33:34.515 --> 00:33:38.985
a power distance that is clearly established, um, you know,

753
00:33:38.985 --> 00:33:41.505
a board member st level will not talk to you

754
00:33:42.605 --> 00:33:44.265
if you are VP or below.

755
00:33:47.085 --> 00:33:51.105
So, so the, so the, so part of the question here then is

756
00:33:51.125 --> 00:33:53.745
how do you get their attention and correct,

757
00:33:54.205 --> 00:33:56.465
and, you know, there, there are lots of ways of doing that.

758
00:33:57.165 --> 00:34:00.225
Um, you know, one of the things I would suggest

759
00:34:00.225 --> 00:34:03.225
that you can do, because at the end of the day, I think

760
00:34:03.225 --> 00:34:05.025
what everybody has said in different ways is

761
00:34:05.025 --> 00:34:07.305
that getting clar strategic clarity

762
00:34:07.365 --> 00:34:10.385
and focus from the executive team having a strong

763
00:34:12.265 --> 00:34:16.675
Process to align your resources to your strategy, right?

764
00:34:16.675 --> 00:34:17.875
So let's call that prioritize.

765
00:34:17.875 --> 00:34:18.995
You can call it prioritization,

766
00:34:18.995 --> 00:34:20.555
we can call it capacity planning,

767
00:34:20.555 --> 00:34:22.555
you can call it whatever you want to call it, right?

768
00:34:22.555 --> 00:34:25.635
But having a strong process that that prioritizes

769
00:34:25.635 --> 00:34:29.275
and aligns, um, your strategy is what's gonna drive,

770
00:34:29.705 --> 00:34:31.195
it's gonna fix a lot of that firefighting.

771
00:34:31.195 --> 00:34:32.595
It's the root cause of all of that.

772
00:34:32.895 --> 00:34:34.595
You know, a lot of the, the hair on fire

773
00:34:35.055 --> 00:34:36.195
antics that we see out there.

774
00:34:36.895 --> 00:34:39.875
So, so if you can't get directly,

775
00:34:39.975 --> 00:34:41.475
or if you don't have strong support

776
00:34:42.025 --> 00:34:44.835
from the leadership team, uh, Mike, I'm gonna come

777
00:34:44.835 --> 00:34:45.955
to you then Rebecca, I'm gonna come

778
00:34:45.955 --> 00:34:48.195
to you right from opposite sides if you like.

779
00:34:48.935 --> 00:34:50.755
Uh, 'cause Mike, I know you've done this a lot with,

780
00:34:51.135 --> 00:34:52.315
uh, Laura and the crew.

781
00:34:52.575 --> 00:34:53.875
How do you go and get their attention,

782
00:34:54.735 --> 00:34:55.835
you know, in, in practice?

783
00:34:56.195 --> 00:34:57.955
I know what it says in Laura's purple book, Laura,

784
00:34:58.005 --> 00:34:59.915
we're talking about Laura Barnard, her purple book.

785
00:35:00.315 --> 00:35:01.515
I know what it says in the purple book.

786
00:35:01.545 --> 00:35:03.555
What, what's the reality? How do you do it?

787
00:35:04.295 --> 00:35:07.065
Well, uh, this is a tricky one, especially culturally,

788
00:35:07.065 --> 00:35:10.185
and it can be a bit risky depending on, uh, on your culture,

789
00:35:11.005 --> 00:35:13.345
but I find it very effective to say, Hey guys,

790
00:35:13.965 --> 00:35:15.865
if if this is not a priority for you

791
00:35:15.885 --> 00:35:18.305
to even find 10 minutes on your calendar to meet with me

792
00:35:18.305 --> 00:35:19.425
and chat about the objectives,

793
00:35:19.695 --> 00:35:21.225
then why should it be priority for me?

794
00:35:22.705 --> 00:35:24.115
That usually gets some attention.

795
00:35:24.165 --> 00:35:25.515
Might not be as favorable

796
00:35:25.515 --> 00:35:26.875
as you might prefer depending on your culture,

797
00:35:27.615 --> 00:35:30.035
but it, you, you, at some point,

798
00:35:30.065 --> 00:35:32.695
there's a flip over the desk moment, right?

799
00:35:32.695 --> 00:35:35.015
Where you can keep trudging along knowing you're heading

800
00:35:35.075 --> 00:35:37.805
for a dead end, which could also be very career limiting.

801
00:35:38.775 --> 00:35:40.555
Uh, or you have to raise your hand

802
00:35:40.555 --> 00:35:41.995
and say, guys, I don't get it.

803
00:35:42.375 --> 00:35:44.475
Uh, I think we need more clarity or more guidance,

804
00:35:44.575 --> 00:35:47.955
or more something, because this does not align with

805
00:35:47.955 --> 00:35:49.795
what a high priority project should look like.

806
00:35:51.605 --> 00:35:52.695
Fred, do you wanted to interject?

807
00:35:54.045 --> 00:35:57.175
Yeah, I mean, the, the answer, the answer I would get,

808
00:35:57.235 --> 00:35:58.855
and I, I got that answer a couple

809
00:35:58.855 --> 00:36:02.575
of times when I coincidentally managed to catch a guy,

810
00:36:03.195 --> 00:36:05.015
you know, in front of his, uh, of his office.

811
00:36:05.995 --> 00:36:07.855
Uh, you know, if it's not a priority

812
00:36:07.855 --> 00:36:08.975
for you, why should it be for me?

813
00:36:08.975 --> 00:36:10.655
Because, because that's what I pay you for.

814
00:36:12.765 --> 00:36:15.855
This is where you get the clear message, you know,

815
00:36:16.075 --> 00:36:19.495
you gotta find a way to figure it out without them.

816
00:36:20.855 --> 00:36:23.435
And, uh, it is, it is a struggle.

817
00:36:24.015 --> 00:36:25.875
So there was, there's one actually,

818
00:36:25.875 --> 00:36:27.155
there's one that sort of, can

819
00:36:27.155 --> 00:36:29.275
I go, can I Just here, so go ahead.

820
00:36:29.375 --> 00:36:31.955
One of the, I mean, I've dealt with this many, many, many,

821
00:36:31.955 --> 00:36:34.915
many times, and what I find is that it is

822
00:36:35.935 --> 00:36:38.885
the managers challenge

823
00:36:39.705 --> 00:36:43.605
to find the thing that is going to get the attention

824
00:36:44.235 --> 00:36:46.365
from further up, which means the manager,

825
00:36:46.505 --> 00:36:49.725
and I know it's hard, it's, it doesn't even seem fair,

826
00:36:50.305 --> 00:36:52.845
but if a manager can frame,

827
00:36:53.025 --> 00:36:55.125
and that's one of the things I work with them on,

828
00:36:55.225 --> 00:36:58.325
is frame their issue in terms

829
00:36:58.955 --> 00:37:02.605
that execs care about, they will get elevated.

830
00:37:02.785 --> 00:37:06.005
And I usually just go right to the guy right above wherever,

831
00:37:06.025 --> 00:37:08.165
you know, the, the level right above where we are

832
00:37:08.625 --> 00:37:09.685
and bring the message there.

833
00:37:09.745 --> 00:37:13.405
If it doesn't land, we redo it and we get it.

834
00:37:13.425 --> 00:37:15.165
We do, we tune it and change it

835
00:37:15.165 --> 00:37:18.685
and focus on it until we get that level attention.

836
00:37:19.105 --> 00:37:21.445
And then that level moves it up.

837
00:37:22.025 --> 00:37:24.565
And we've also tried it from top down.

838
00:37:24.775 --> 00:37:27.685
We've gone over the, over the top and brought it down.

839
00:37:27.785 --> 00:37:30.365
We, we'll, I'll try anything. I don't care.

840
00:37:31.005 --> 00:37:34.085
I assume it's not personal. I assume it's Yeah.

841
00:37:34.085 --> 00:37:35.285
But then again, doable. I,

842
00:37:35.985 --> 00:37:37.145
I fully agree with you.

843
00:37:37.285 --> 00:37:39.505
But then again, this is the perspective of somebody

844
00:37:39.565 --> 00:37:43.785
who has been brought in by the executives to fix the problem

845
00:37:43.815 --> 00:37:46.385
that they've already taken, uh, uh,

846
00:37:46.385 --> 00:37:50.855
or acknowledged, meaning the moment you are, you are

847
00:37:51.565 --> 00:37:52.735
into help them,

848
00:37:53.005 --> 00:37:56.315
they already know they have this level of problems. Um,

849
00:37:56.935 --> 00:37:58.155
But I'm also talking Frederick,

850
00:37:58.255 --> 00:37:59.835
I'm stage, I've been hired also

851
00:37:59.835 --> 00:38:01.995
by those managers to get up there.

852
00:38:02.255 --> 00:38:03.635
So that's what I was just talking about.

853
00:38:03.755 --> 00:38:04.955
I also work with that level

854
00:38:05.305 --> 00:38:06.835
because, you know, they're also

855
00:38:06.835 --> 00:38:08.155
struggling and they don't know why.

856
00:38:08.455 --> 00:38:09.715
And, and we look at it

857
00:38:09.715 --> 00:38:12.475
and we go, oh, the reason is coming from the top

858
00:38:12.615 --> 00:38:13.635
and they don't know it.

859
00:38:14.135 --> 00:38:17.035
And so how do we get that piece of information up there? And

860
00:38:17.215 --> 00:38:19.155
By The way, and, and so what's, well, hang on,

861
00:38:19.155 --> 00:38:20.275
Mike, just gimme a sec, if you would.

862
00:38:20.455 --> 00:38:22.755
So the, the message that I hope you're all getting from

863
00:38:22.755 --> 00:38:24.835
this, which is what I suspected was gonna happen,

864
00:38:25.495 --> 00:38:27.275
is there isn't one way to do it.

865
00:38:28.375 --> 00:38:30.155
No. There Are lots of ways to do it.

866
00:38:30.185 --> 00:38:31.355
It's culture dependent.

867
00:38:31.495 --> 00:38:34.395
Um, you can be as un subtle as you know, Mike,

868
00:38:34.515 --> 00:38:37.085
I think it was you that was telling a story about a customer

869
00:38:37.105 --> 00:38:39.325
who came to you and said, look, I'll pay you 10 grand

870
00:38:39.345 --> 00:38:41.725
to come and present my paper, right?

871
00:38:41.725 --> 00:38:44.005
Because, 'cause you are from outside, right? Yeah.

872
00:38:44.005 --> 00:38:45.445
So Fred, that's what you were saying, right?

873
00:38:45.865 --> 00:38:47.805
That's what I was gonna say. I mean, this morning

874
00:38:47.825 --> 00:38:49.405
People like us to de-risk the situation.

875
00:38:50.205 --> 00:38:51.765
Absolutely. This morning I had, uh,

876
00:38:51.805 --> 00:38:54.605
I had a meeting about something related to the,

877
00:38:55.065 --> 00:38:57.485
to the delivery of the ne next regulatory period.

878
00:38:58.885 --> 00:39:01.145
And the outcome of that meeting was, let's bring one

879
00:39:01.145 --> 00:39:04.375
of the big fours, because whatever,

880
00:39:04.885 --> 00:39:06.695
even if they tell the executives

881
00:39:06.695 --> 00:39:08.415
what we have been telling them for six months,

882
00:39:08.965 --> 00:39:11.295
it's gonna land where they're not listening to us.

883
00:39:12.305 --> 00:39:14.285
So that's exactly it, right? Yeah.

884
00:39:14.285 --> 00:39:17.735
And, and that Rebecca might be one vehicle.

885
00:39:18.815 --> 00:39:20.775
Absolutely. So that, you know, that's one way of doing it.

886
00:39:21.195 --> 00:39:24.575
Um, another way that I've seen work really well is

887
00:39:24.755 --> 00:39:27.615
to just kind of take an incremental approach where you find

888
00:39:28.235 --> 00:39:31.135
one small problem that you can fix that the execs feel

889
00:39:31.635 --> 00:39:34.735
and fix it just to get their attention right,

890
00:39:35.275 --> 00:39:36.415
and then fix another one.

891
00:39:36.635 --> 00:39:39.575
Do it really quickly and get their attention right.

892
00:39:39.575 --> 00:39:42.295
That, that can work. Um, uh, another,

893
00:39:42.295 --> 00:39:44.815
another method I've seen is to just sit down

894
00:39:44.875 --> 00:39:46.935
and build a case for change, right?

895
00:39:46.995 --> 00:39:48.855
To sit down and actually quantify.

896
00:39:49.635 --> 00:39:52.335
Um, so the way I talk about it is the, the, the, the,

897
00:39:52.355 --> 00:39:54.495
the head, the heart, and the heartbreak, right?

898
00:39:54.515 --> 00:39:57.015
So there's a, so quantify the business case, right?

899
00:39:57.015 --> 00:39:59.855
The financial business case, you know, projects are failing,

900
00:39:59.905 --> 00:40:01.015
we're missing deadlines.

901
00:40:01.015 --> 00:40:02.815
There, there's a financial aspect to that.

902
00:40:03.525 --> 00:40:06.015
There's the heart, which is that as a, as an exec,

903
00:40:06.155 --> 00:40:08.975
I'm frustrated because I, I don't know what's going on.

904
00:40:09.095 --> 00:40:12.415
I don't know how my projects are connected to my, I know

905
00:40:12.415 --> 00:40:14.495
what my strategy is, even if you don't,

906
00:40:14.875 --> 00:40:16.095
and I don't see the connection

907
00:40:16.095 --> 00:40:17.855
between the portfolio and my Strat, right?

908
00:40:17.855 --> 00:40:19.815
That's a heart thing. I, I feel uncomfortable.

909
00:40:19.955 --> 00:40:22.535
So we can fix that, right? You can fix that pretty easily.

910
00:40:23.115 --> 00:40:25.575
Um, and, and then the heartbreak is the one where, you know,

911
00:40:25.615 --> 00:40:29.135
I, I always think that any spectacular project failure

912
00:40:29.755 --> 00:40:32.415
is a golden opportunity to walk into the boardroom

913
00:40:32.835 --> 00:40:34.575
and present your root cause analysis.

914
00:40:35.915 --> 00:40:39.535
And to say, the reason fundamentally is that, you know,

915
00:40:39.535 --> 00:40:40.695
you do your whys right?

916
00:40:41.115 --> 00:40:42.695
Why we didn't have enough resources. Why?

917
00:40:42.695 --> 00:40:43.975
Because we've got too many projects. Why?

918
00:40:43.975 --> 00:40:45.815
Because our prioritization process is broken.

919
00:40:46.925 --> 00:40:50.145
Oh, what would you like to do about that? Guys?

920
00:40:50.505 --> 00:40:52.345
I know what, let's fix it. Right? It's their idea.

921
00:40:52.345 --> 00:40:53.465
It's not your idea. You're just

922
00:40:53.465 --> 00:40:56.385
presenting some context, right? Let it be their idea.

923
00:40:56.605 --> 00:40:57.785
You know, embedded in

924
00:40:57.785 --> 00:41:00.625
that Stuart is a huge insight I wanna make sure everyone

925
00:41:00.625 --> 00:41:04.425
captures, which is you're helping them see their system

926
00:41:04.725 --> 00:41:05.825
better than they do.

927
00:41:06.555 --> 00:41:09.495
Yep. That can make you an enormously valuable person.

928
00:41:09.885 --> 00:41:12.295
Because if you're, if you're meeting me where I am

929
00:41:12.295 --> 00:41:14.535
as an executive, you're helping me understand this system

930
00:41:14.565 --> 00:41:16.335
that often looks like a black box to me.

931
00:41:16.645 --> 00:41:19.295
Because you have ways to peer into the black box, right?

932
00:41:19.295 --> 00:41:21.335
Closer to how the work actually gets done than I do.

933
00:41:21.835 --> 00:41:24.435
And if you could say, here's how the system, here's

934
00:41:24.435 --> 00:41:26.155
where the system is breaking down, here's

935
00:41:26.155 --> 00:41:27.235
how we can fix the system

936
00:41:28.155 --> 00:41:29.845
that gets the attention way more than, oh,

937
00:41:29.845 --> 00:41:31.165
you gotta gimme more resources.

938
00:41:31.345 --> 00:41:34.005
Or how come you can't clarify your priorities better?

939
00:41:34.145 --> 00:41:36.955
Or, you know, all the, you know, all the finger wagging

940
00:41:36.955 --> 00:41:38.075
that you might otherwise do.

941
00:41:38.875 --> 00:41:41.525
Well, and I think that word system is really important

942
00:41:41.525 --> 00:41:44.125
because, um, I, I just wanna also name this.

943
00:41:44.225 --> 00:41:46.965
So often we think a problem can only be fixed

944
00:41:46.965 --> 00:41:48.365
with more money, more resources.

945
00:41:48.785 --> 00:41:50.925
And that is so tiresome

946
00:41:51.025 --> 00:41:52.485
to execs, they don't wanna hear that.

947
00:41:52.945 --> 00:41:56.725
But system change governance, how the flow of things,

948
00:41:57.095 --> 00:41:59.125
there is so much potential there.

949
00:41:59.225 --> 00:42:02.685
We waste so much time with terrible governance

950
00:42:02.685 --> 00:42:05.045
or invisible governance or gaps in governance.

951
00:42:05.465 --> 00:42:08.885
And I, when I talk about governance, I mean the flow of how

952
00:42:09.885 --> 00:42:11.925
communications and decisions are made so

953
00:42:11.925 --> 00:42:13.285
that things can happen.

954
00:42:13.745 --> 00:42:15.765
And if we can, that's the thing that we did.

955
00:42:15.785 --> 00:42:19.085
We brought a huge governance gap to leadership

956
00:42:19.105 --> 00:42:22.605
and said, if you will solve this governance gap in this way,

957
00:42:22.625 --> 00:42:23.845
and we're open to other ideas,

958
00:42:24.265 --> 00:42:25.725
but if you'll solve this, we can,

959
00:42:26.345 --> 00:42:28.245
we can change the landscape here.

960
00:42:28.265 --> 00:42:30.725
And, and leadership is like, whoa,

961
00:42:31.015 --> 00:42:32.525
let's, let's look at that. So

962
00:42:32.525 --> 00:42:34.205
Let's, let's put that into perspective, right?

963
00:42:34.615 --> 00:42:35.965
Let's make it kind of real.

964
00:42:36.665 --> 00:42:39.405
Um, anybody, anybody from the UK on here?

965
00:42:39.645 --> 00:42:41.325
Actually, Stuart Stewart's from the uk.

966
00:42:41.505 --> 00:42:44.365
Uh, I know that, um, I haven't seen anybody else. Who else?

967
00:42:44.485 --> 00:42:45.925
I, anyway, anyone else from the uk?

968
00:42:46.785 --> 00:42:48.165
So in the UK we have this thing

969
00:42:48.165 --> 00:42:49.245
called the National Health Service.

970
00:42:49.345 --> 00:42:51.925
We all love it, it's wonderful, it's an amazing institution.

971
00:42:52.305 --> 00:42:55.365
But is it efficient? Hmm. No, not really.

972
00:42:56.025 --> 00:42:59.055
Um, so they are going

973
00:42:59.055 --> 00:43:00.535
through a very large change at the moment.

974
00:43:00.955 --> 00:43:02.615
And as a general rule,

975
00:43:02.615 --> 00:43:06.135
the governance processes are not working well in the NHS.

976
00:43:06.915 --> 00:43:09.655
So I was speaking to a an NHS PMO

977
00:43:10.425 --> 00:43:11.895
eight months ago, something like that.

978
00:43:12.875 --> 00:43:14.495
And she said, yeah, the execs came

979
00:43:14.495 --> 00:43:17.215
and they, they just gave me 120 projects to do.

980
00:43:17.645 --> 00:43:19.295
They said, we've looked at the strategy.

981
00:43:19.605 --> 00:43:22.775
Here are 120 projects, to which I responded,

982
00:43:22.815 --> 00:43:24.415
I can't deliver a hundred, I can't deliver anywhere

983
00:43:24.655 --> 00:43:25.815
near 120 projects.

984
00:43:25.815 --> 00:43:27.735
And their answer was, anyone wanna have a

985
00:43:27.735 --> 00:43:28.775
guess what their answer was?

986
00:43:28.775 --> 00:43:30.335
Figure it out. Say it again, Mike.

987
00:43:30.555 --> 00:43:32.855
Figure it out. You got it. Just get it done.

988
00:43:33.445 --> 00:43:37.255
Just get it done. Right? That's what we've useful.

989
00:43:38.335 --> 00:43:39.545
Yeah, well, exactly.

990
00:43:39.925 --> 00:43:44.105
So they launched 120 projects, um, in the audience,

991
00:43:44.105 --> 00:43:46.385
fingers on keyboards, if you please have a guess out

992
00:43:46.385 --> 00:43:49.305
of 120 projects, how many did they actually finish?

993
00:43:49.765 --> 00:43:53.165
You only get points when you finish you 12.

994
00:43:53.165 --> 00:43:54.285
You only get points when you finish.

995
00:43:54.345 --> 00:43:58.845
Oh God, you lot a pessimistic, Oh,

996
00:43:58.845 --> 00:44:00.805
we got a whole bunch of EOS on the call today.

997
00:44:00.915 --> 00:44:04.005
Good grief. Um, yeah, so they, they,

998
00:44:04.195 --> 00:44:06.925
they finished about 20, right?

999
00:44:07.475 --> 00:44:11.325
They finished about 20. So, so think about that, right?

1000
00:44:11.835 --> 00:44:14.685
They put a load of investment into a hundred projects

1001
00:44:14.685 --> 00:44:15.845
that never delivered value.

1002
00:44:17.555 --> 00:44:20.205
Imagine if they just taken that effort

1003
00:44:20.205 --> 00:44:22.845
and put it into another 10 or 20 projects.

1004
00:44:22.845 --> 00:44:24.125
They could have delivered 50

1005
00:44:24.145 --> 00:44:26.645
or a hundred percent more value by doing that.

1006
00:44:28.295 --> 00:44:31.485
That is not a project execution problem.

1007
00:44:32.775 --> 00:44:33.905
That is a governance problem.

1008
00:44:34.505 --> 00:44:35.795
It's a decision making problem.

1009
00:44:37.015 --> 00:44:40.675
So, um, uh, so, you know, I think Rebecca,

1010
00:44:40.705 --> 00:44:42.555
your point is absolutely spot on

1011
00:44:43.335 --> 00:44:45.875
and, you know, we, we see it again and again and again.

1012
00:44:46.695 --> 00:44:50.235
The vast majority of problems in project delivery are

1013
00:44:50.635 --> 00:44:53.055
actually caused at the governance layer.

1014
00:44:54.055 --> 00:44:56.065
Yeah, we've got, so we've got, I just wanna sort

1015
00:44:56.065 --> 00:45:00.585
of sum up, we've got the lack of true strategy, meaning

1016
00:45:00.655 --> 00:45:03.145
that it's big picture, not a list of projects.

1017
00:45:03.165 --> 00:45:04.945
That's absolutely not strategy.

1018
00:45:05.485 --> 00:45:09.705
Second, we have, uh, the systems, the governance,

1019
00:45:10.165 --> 00:45:14.345
the flow of how things get done that's often just archaic

1020
00:45:14.345 --> 00:45:16.025
and ridiculous and we, and invisible.

1021
00:45:16.525 --> 00:45:18.425
So we're getting shot in the foot all the time.

1022
00:45:18.525 --> 00:45:21.065
And the third one that is absolutely critical is the

1023
00:45:21.065 --> 00:45:23.825
overarching culture in which all of this exists.

1024
00:45:24.485 --> 00:45:29.305
And you all are in your culture, so you know what they are.

1025
00:45:29.725 --> 00:45:31.345
And oh, I also wanna say a fourth thing.

1026
00:45:31.345 --> 00:45:33.785
It goes back to what Frederick and Mike were saying, that

1027
00:45:34.345 --> 00:45:37.025
bringing someone in from the outside is often the way

1028
00:45:37.125 --> 00:45:38.225
to get it to move.

1029
00:45:38.905 --> 00:45:41.385
I know that seems kind of frustrating.

1030
00:45:41.385 --> 00:45:42.505
It's like, we've been saying this,

1031
00:45:42.525 --> 00:45:43.785
why do you need somebody from the outside?

1032
00:45:43.935 --> 00:45:46.625
It's just the reality. Get over it.

1033
00:45:47.115 --> 00:45:50.105
Bring somebody in to help you deliver it.

1034
00:45:50.455 --> 00:45:52.225
They don't have to deliver it for you.

1035
00:45:52.765 --> 00:45:54.665
But just the fact that you've got someone from the

1036
00:45:54.665 --> 00:45:56.785
outside who's validating it, who has years

1037
00:45:56.805 --> 00:45:59.665
of experience doing it, helps leadership feel

1038
00:45:59.665 --> 00:46:01.865
that it's not political, it's not personal.

1039
00:46:02.165 --> 00:46:04.705
So it's just, it's just how the game is played.

1040
00:46:05.125 --> 00:46:08.065
So I think those four things are really important for,

1041
00:46:08.325 --> 00:46:09.785
you know, for us to hone in on.

1042
00:46:11.585 --> 00:46:12.635
Love it. Love it.

1043
00:46:13.055 --> 00:46:15.955
So, so we, we've sort of come, we, we've talked about some

1044
00:46:15.955 --> 00:46:17.595
of the root causes of inefficiency.

1045
00:46:18.245 --> 00:46:19.635
We've talked about a little bit about

1046
00:46:19.935 --> 00:46:23.915
how if you get alignment right and you prioritize properly

1047
00:46:24.295 --> 00:46:28.115
and you don't overload your people projects go faster.

1048
00:46:29.655 --> 00:46:32.515
Um, let's, let's come back to where we started

1049
00:46:32.935 --> 00:46:34.715
and talk a little bit about communication.

1050
00:46:36.165 --> 00:46:38.905
So, um, uh,

1051
00:46:40.425 --> 00:46:41.745
somebody at the beginning, I've forgotten who it was.

1052
00:46:41.845 --> 00:46:43.105
Oh, it was Stuart, wasn't it?

1053
00:46:43.105 --> 00:46:45.425
Said, oh, we just need to get them down here to do the,

1054
00:46:45.445 --> 00:46:49.065
you know, day in the life I'm gonna be stronger than Mike.

1055
00:46:49.305 --> 00:46:50.745
Actually, I'm gonna disagree more strongly.

1056
00:46:50.765 --> 00:46:53.415
Stuart, at the end of the day,

1057
00:46:55.675 --> 00:46:59.755
the leadership team is the customer, right?

1058
00:47:00.175 --> 00:47:02.235
The PMO is there to deliver their strategy.

1059
00:47:03.345 --> 00:47:06.775
They're not there to serve us. We're there to serve them.

1060
00:47:07.635 --> 00:47:09.935
So that means, and we, we've, we've heard it a bunch

1061
00:47:09.935 --> 00:47:12.695
of times that we need to meet them where they are, right?

1062
00:47:13.195 --> 00:47:17.575
So how, how, what, what are the, what are the changes that

1063
00:47:18.405 --> 00:47:21.065
people on this webinar need to make to mindset,

1064
00:47:21.285 --> 00:47:22.985
to their language, to their knowledge

1065
00:47:24.365 --> 00:47:25.785
to enable that to happen?

1066
00:47:26.485 --> 00:47:28.105
And, and Fred, I'm, I'm gonna come over

1067
00:47:28.105 --> 00:47:29.605
to you first actually on this one

1068
00:47:29.885 --> 00:47:31.725
'cause, um, it's a really tough one

1069
00:47:31.725 --> 00:47:34.485
and you've, you've probably battled more diverse cultures

1070
00:47:34.485 --> 00:47:35.605
than the rest of us put together.

1071
00:47:36.105 --> 00:47:37.965
So you probably have some quite unique insights.

1072
00:47:42.155 --> 00:47:45.615
Yeah, it's, um, it's a tough question. Um,

1073
00:47:50.415 --> 00:47:52.705
Have I stumped the great Frederick Cassa Grande?

1074
00:47:52.925 --> 00:47:54.945
No, I haven't. It's just the,

1075
00:47:55.145 --> 00:47:57.945
I dunno, I'm, I'm trying to find, uh,

1076
00:47:58.005 --> 00:48:01.185
to find a summarized a summarized answer to the question,

1077
00:48:01.205 --> 00:48:02.465
but I I don't think I have one.

1078
00:48:03.405 --> 00:48:06.745
Um, because for sure the more,

1079
00:48:06.745 --> 00:48:08.825
the more culturally diverse your environment is,

1080
00:48:10.875 --> 00:48:15.015
the more you, you're gonna, you're gonna risk, um,

1081
00:48:15.355 --> 00:48:17.015
to trip yourself on something

1082
00:48:17.015 --> 00:48:18.975
that is not actually the, the question or the problem.

1083
00:48:23.895 --> 00:48:25.015
I dunno, I don't, Stuart,

1084
00:48:28.255 --> 00:48:29.755
Uh, Mike, you wanna have a go?

1085
00:48:30.145 --> 00:48:31.145
It's a tough one.

1086
00:48:32.225 --> 00:48:34.705
I always, I always get back to the objectives

1087
00:48:34.725 --> 00:48:35.745
and the system, right?

1088
00:48:35.805 --> 00:48:39.305
So a lot of us PMs have heard the old story, uh,

1089
00:48:39.325 --> 00:48:41.825
or the fable fetch me a rock, right?

1090
00:48:41.965 --> 00:48:43.385
And so if a customer

1091
00:48:43.405 --> 00:48:47.025
or sponsor says, go fetch me a rock, you say, okay,

1092
00:48:47.025 --> 00:48:48.385
well I'm gonna go and press him and get the biggest

1093
00:48:48.385 --> 00:48:49.425
rock I possibly can.

1094
00:48:49.965 --> 00:48:52.185
And so you do. And they say, no, not that rock.

1095
00:48:52.695 --> 00:48:53.985
They say, okay, I'm gonna go run

1096
00:48:53.985 --> 00:48:55.625
and get the most expensive rock I can.

1097
00:48:55.625 --> 00:48:57.745
And you find a diamond and you bring it back

1098
00:48:57.745 --> 00:48:58.985
and they say, no, not that rock.

1099
00:48:59.485 --> 00:49:01.105
And at some point you're gonna stop

1100
00:49:01.105 --> 00:49:02.225
and say, well, wait, what are you

1101
00:49:02.225 --> 00:49:03.265
trying to achieve with the rock?

1102
00:49:04.035 --> 00:49:05.665
Maybe I should have asked that from the get go,

1103
00:49:05.665 --> 00:49:08.145
but I was so busy trying to impress you, you know, um,

1104
00:49:08.145 --> 00:49:10.785
pardon me and say, I'm just trying to teach my son how

1105
00:49:10.785 --> 00:49:12.185
to skip a rock across the pond.

1106
00:49:12.605 --> 00:49:15.425
Ah, well now we're getting somewhere, right?

1107
00:49:16.565 --> 00:49:19.065
And so some clarity on the objectives,

1108
00:49:19.065 --> 00:49:20.585
rather than just go fetch me a rock.

1109
00:49:21.245 --> 00:49:24.065
Um, because again, you might have thought as the executive,

1110
00:49:24.335 --> 00:49:26.905
well, I'm sitting here with my son trying to skip rocks.

1111
00:49:26.905 --> 00:49:28.585
It's, it should be obvious what I'm trying to achieve.

1112
00:49:29.095 --> 00:49:30.665
Well, maybe not, right?

1113
00:49:30.805 --> 00:49:33.225
May maybe, you know, from where I stand, I had no idea

1114
00:49:33.295 --> 00:49:35.825
that was your son or what you were doing, um,

1115
00:49:36.205 --> 00:49:38.265
or whether it's even related to this challenge.

1116
00:49:38.965 --> 00:49:40.665
So a few simple questions like

1117
00:49:40.665 --> 00:49:42.185
what are we actually trying to achieve here?

1118
00:49:42.575 --> 00:49:44.705
Yeah. Uh, and then follow that up with a

1119
00:49:44.705 --> 00:49:46.065
how might we, right?

1120
00:49:46.405 --> 00:49:47.785
And always do the we as a system.

1121
00:49:48.595 --> 00:49:50.125
Then I think you're, you're gonna,

1122
00:49:50.345 --> 00:49:52.085
you're gonna set the conversation up

1123
00:49:52.265 --> 00:49:53.925
for higher probability of success.

1124
00:49:55.555 --> 00:49:57.445
Well, I mean, the, the reason why I'm, I'm,

1125
00:49:58.345 --> 00:50:00.895
I'm a bit baffled in, in trying

1126
00:50:00.895 --> 00:50:02.015
to answer that question, okay?

1127
00:50:02.035 --> 00:50:03.055
So it's, it's, uh,

1128
00:50:03.685 --> 00:50:05.775
it's a story I've ha I've faced at work a couple

1129
00:50:05.775 --> 00:50:09.015
of months ago, um, related to, you know,

1130
00:50:09.235 --> 00:50:12.015
the age old question about implementing earned value

1131
00:50:12.015 --> 00:50:13.495
management across the whole portfolio.

1132
00:50:14.855 --> 00:50:18.125
And the CEO asked a question.

1133
00:50:18.345 --> 00:50:20.485
He asked a question in a very small committee

1134
00:50:21.365 --> 00:50:22.905
of the executive management team.

1135
00:50:23.705 --> 00:50:25.385
Somebody in the executive management team picked

1136
00:50:25.385 --> 00:50:26.785
that question to address it.

1137
00:50:28.785 --> 00:50:31.675
They reframe that question in their own understanding,

1138
00:50:31.975 --> 00:50:36.795
not being a project person directed it to

1139
00:50:37.955 --> 00:50:41.695
the, the, their peer in my line of management

1140
00:50:42.355 --> 00:50:46.615
who directed it to my line manager who directed it to me.

1141
00:50:46.995 --> 00:50:49.175
So that's four levels of filters.

1142
00:50:51.565 --> 00:50:53.985
Now, when I asked my line manager

1143
00:50:54.655 --> 00:50:59.345
what exactly is the CEO's problem, they answered

1144
00:50:59.535 --> 00:51:04.065
what they thought they understood from the C level, which is

1145
00:51:04.065 --> 00:51:06.505
what they thought they understood from the other C level,

1146
00:51:06.505 --> 00:51:08.825
which is what they thought they understood from the CEO.

1147
00:51:10.055 --> 00:51:12.835
The first meeting I managed to have in front of the CEO

1148
00:51:12.895 --> 00:51:17.225
to actually explain what I was thinking, to be the answer

1149
00:51:17.285 --> 00:51:18.665
to the question of the question of the question

1150
00:51:18.665 --> 00:51:21.025
of the question of the question, I understood

1151
00:51:21.025 --> 00:51:22.945
that his problem was absolutely

1152
00:51:23.455 --> 00:51:25.785
nowhere related to any of that.

1153
00:51:27.705 --> 00:51:31.045
But again, because we do not have face time with this level

1154
00:51:31.045 --> 00:51:33.925
of people, it's very difficult for us to actually

1155
00:51:34.465 --> 00:51:36.365
narrow down what is it, what ex

1156
00:51:36.515 --> 00:51:38.205
what exactly is your problem statement?

1157
00:51:38.705 --> 00:51:40.845
Not your symptom, but your problem statement.

1158
00:51:40.865 --> 00:51:42.405
But there's something, there's something really important

1159
00:51:42.405 --> 00:51:43.925
in the, in there, Fred, that I wanna pull out.

1160
00:51:43.925 --> 00:51:45.565
And it, it, it aligns with Mike as well.

1161
00:51:47.355 --> 00:51:50.695
What you've both said in different ways is that

1162
00:51:51.855 --> 00:51:55.135
wherever you, whatever your environment is, you need

1163
00:51:55.135 --> 00:51:58.735
to understand the business, you need

1164
00:51:58.735 --> 00:52:00.415
to understand the business problems, you need

1165
00:52:00.415 --> 00:52:03.255
to understand the business goals, the language

1166
00:52:03.255 --> 00:52:05.055
of the business, right?

1167
00:52:05.055 --> 00:52:07.695
So Fred, the reason that you could do that when you're

1168
00:52:07.765 --> 00:52:08.935
with A CEO is 'cause you,

1169
00:52:08.935 --> 00:52:10.615
you actually understand the business and how it works

1170
00:52:10.715 --> 00:52:11.855
and all that stuff.

1171
00:52:11.875 --> 00:52:14.455
So you're not, you're not going in there thinking about

1172
00:52:14.845 --> 00:52:17.295
project methodologies and earn value.

1173
00:52:17.315 --> 00:52:19.935
You're going in there talking business language,

1174
00:52:20.405 --> 00:52:21.405
Correct?

1175
00:52:21.425 --> 00:52:23.535
Right. So Rebecca, let's come to you.

1176
00:52:23.565 --> 00:52:26.455
What does, what does that feel like

1177
00:52:27.195 --> 00:52:29.055
in the leadership team when someone comes in

1178
00:52:29.055 --> 00:52:32.145
and starts speaking project ease?

1179
00:52:32.845 --> 00:52:34.945
Oh, well, they, they just shut off immediately.

1180
00:52:34.945 --> 00:52:35.945
You can just see it. I mean,

1181
00:52:35.945 --> 00:52:38.065
just you lo you lose them in four seconds.

1182
00:52:38.725 --> 00:52:42.545
But to, you know, what you were saying, Frederick, is

1183
00:52:43.565 --> 00:52:45.825
we, there, there are those layers, right?

1184
00:52:45.825 --> 00:52:47.145
There absolutely are those layers

1185
00:52:47.285 --> 00:52:51.625
and leadership, their job is to set strategy

1186
00:52:51.975 --> 00:52:54.305
that can be driven down those layers.

1187
00:52:54.565 --> 00:52:56.825
That's their job. If they aren't doing that,

1188
00:52:57.285 --> 00:52:59.705
it is a real hardship for down below.

1189
00:52:59.905 --> 00:53:01.185
I will absolutely say that,

1190
00:53:01.185 --> 00:53:03.585
and I work on this all the time

1191
00:53:04.085 --> 00:53:05.705
to get leaders to be precise.

1192
00:53:05.945 --> 00:53:08.505
I spend so much time, I mean, you said it Stuart language,

1193
00:53:09.095 --> 00:53:10.705
they talk, talk, talk, talk, talk,

1194
00:53:10.705 --> 00:53:12.425
everybody's pontificating.

1195
00:53:12.445 --> 00:53:14.425
And I'm like, could you just slow down

1196
00:53:14.485 --> 00:53:15.785
and explain what you mean?

1197
00:53:16.175 --> 00:53:18.065
Because they are using the same words,

1198
00:53:18.085 --> 00:53:20.065
but I know they don't mean the same thing.

1199
00:53:20.605 --> 00:53:24.225
So getting to real language, not corporate speak,

1200
00:53:25.085 --> 00:53:28.005
real language that is clear and, and direct.

1201
00:53:28.155 --> 00:53:32.205
That is so hard, I gotta tell you, it is a real challenge.

1202
00:53:32.745 --> 00:53:36.085
So if the leaders are trying to do that, then

1203
00:53:36.825 --> 00:53:39.685
my point from down below is that we ask the questions.

1204
00:53:39.685 --> 00:53:42.965
And Mike, I agree with you, the questions should always be,

1205
00:53:43.655 --> 00:53:44.925
where are we headed with this?

1206
00:53:45.545 --> 00:53:48.405
What's the big win that you're looking for?

1207
00:53:49.185 --> 00:53:51.885
Get leaders, no matter what level they're at, right?

1208
00:53:51.905 --> 00:53:53.965
To articulate that. Now, I do understand, Frederick,

1209
00:53:54.105 --> 00:53:56.765
if you ask the guy right here, and he

1210
00:53:56.765 --> 00:53:58.605
or she says what they think it is

1211
00:53:58.605 --> 00:54:03.105
and it doesn't fit up here, you know, we are a bit stuck.

1212
00:54:03.405 --> 00:54:06.665
But if we're seeing that there's some sort of disconnect,

1213
00:54:06.685 --> 00:54:09.795
we can also ask about that, right?

1214
00:54:10.255 --> 00:54:11.915
So I feel like that we have

1215
00:54:11.915 --> 00:54:15.875
to keep asking the question about strategy, not about

1216
00:54:16.595 --> 00:54:19.235
capacity, not about, you know, the small stuff.

1217
00:54:20.175 --> 00:54:21.315
Ask the big questions.

1218
00:54:21.815 --> 00:54:23.875
And, and to that end, actually,

1219
00:54:23.875 --> 00:54:24.955
that's a really good place.

1220
00:54:25.115 --> 00:54:26.395
'cause we're, we're nearly at the top of the hour.

1221
00:54:26.815 --> 00:54:29.195
So what we're really talking about is, is building

1222
00:54:29.195 --> 00:54:30.955
that strong neck, right?

1223
00:54:31.215 --> 00:54:34.795
So it it's, it's strategic alignment, it's good governance,

1224
00:54:35.295 --> 00:54:37.475
and then it, there's something about this communication

1225
00:54:37.655 --> 00:54:39.715
and using business language.

1226
00:54:40.295 --> 00:54:42.075
So if you as a PMO leader

1227
00:54:42.895 --> 00:54:45.755
aren't thinking in business language,

1228
00:54:46.255 --> 00:54:49.555
you've got a problem, right?

1229
00:54:50.095 --> 00:54:53.035
Either you need to go and work on those skills

1230
00:54:54.335 --> 00:54:56.515
or maybe find another role that doesn't need those skills

1231
00:54:57.335 --> 00:55:00.355
Or bring in someone who can help you. That is also,

1232
00:55:00.355 --> 00:55:01.355
Oh, bring someone who Can help you. That

1233
00:55:01.355 --> 00:55:03.075
is huge, right? Because that's what I do all the time.

1234
00:55:03.235 --> 00:55:05.235
I come in percent, I help that person

1235
00:55:05.695 --> 00:55:06.875
to get to that language.

1236
00:55:07.135 --> 00:55:11.035
So, so the second, the second piece there is, is, um, uh,

1237
00:55:11.095 --> 00:55:13.075
it, it was exactly that, Rebecca, right?

1238
00:55:13.075 --> 00:55:15.195
So one of the things that we've touched on several times is

1239
00:55:15.665 --> 00:55:16.955
sometimes it's a good idea

1240
00:55:16.955 --> 00:55:18.475
to bring someone in from the outside.

1241
00:55:18.475 --> 00:55:20.475
There's a couple of people on this call who you could, you

1242
00:55:20.495 --> 00:55:23.555
who you could call, who are you gonna call Ghostbusters.

1243
00:55:24.095 --> 00:55:26.075
Um, but you know, Mike and

1244
00:55:26.075 --> 00:55:27.675
and Rebecca both do this kind of work.

1245
00:55:27.815 --> 00:55:30.075
Um, we've got a bunch of others on our website as well.

1246
00:55:30.535 --> 00:55:32.875
Uh, Fadi who's on here is one of our, uh, one

1247
00:55:32.875 --> 00:55:34.235
of our good friends as well.

1248
00:55:35.055 --> 00:55:38.195
Um, so you know, that's always something that's open to you.

1249
00:55:38.195 --> 00:55:41.115
Someone to act as a bridge, someone to be that door opener,

1250
00:55:41.115 --> 00:55:42.395
someone who can come in.

1251
00:55:43.015 --> 00:55:44.915
Um, I was speaking with one

1252
00:55:44.915 --> 00:55:46.715
of our consulting partners a little while ago,

1253
00:55:47.615 --> 00:55:50.115
and you know, they, they'd just come off stage

1254
00:55:50.115 --> 00:55:52.435
where they talked about this really nice gentle process

1255
00:55:52.575 --> 00:55:56.195
for getting executive buy-in and they came off stage

1256
00:55:56.195 --> 00:55:58.995
and I went, but that's not what you do.

1257
00:55:59.305 --> 00:56:01.195
They said, oh, no, no, I'm paid lots of money

1258
00:56:01.395 --> 00:56:02.635
'cause so I can come in and I can

1259
00:56:02.635 --> 00:56:03.675
just punch 'em right in the face.

1260
00:56:04.595 --> 00:56:08.435
Right. Um, so, so sometimes it's worth paying someone just

1261
00:56:08.435 --> 00:56:09.435
to come in and punch 'em in the

1262
00:56:09.435 --> 00:56:10.155
face and get their attention.

1263
00:56:11.345 --> 00:56:13.525
Um, so that's, that's an interesting technique.

1264
00:56:13.745 --> 00:56:15.045
And then there's other, the,

1265
00:56:15.305 --> 00:56:17.565
the final thing is about the common language and asking lots

1266
00:56:17.565 --> 00:56:19.765
and lots of questions and, um,

1267
00:56:20.325 --> 00:56:22.125
I can't remember whether it's next month or the month after.

1268
00:56:22.705 --> 00:56:26.365
We are planning to invite Rebecca back again and Fadi

1269
00:56:26.905 --> 00:56:29.925
and, uh, and I think a guy called Ben Chamberlain

1270
00:56:30.385 --> 00:56:32.485
to come along and have that conversation,

1271
00:56:32.585 --> 00:56:33.725
to have the conversation about

1272
00:56:33.725 --> 00:56:37.665
what are those big questions you need to be asking right?

1273
00:56:37.765 --> 00:56:39.225
To, to, to build understanding.

1274
00:56:40.005 --> 00:56:42.705
And just asking those

1275
00:56:43.025 --> 00:56:45.065
questions will open doors.

1276
00:56:45.365 --> 00:56:47.865
Not every door, not all the time,

1277
00:56:48.925 --> 00:56:51.785
but just asking the questions will change the perception of

1278
00:56:51.785 --> 00:56:52.905
what the PMO is for,

1279
00:56:53.525 --> 00:56:55.305
and it will start to open doors for you.

1280
00:56:56.015 --> 00:56:58.065
Well also too, I really hope we get to talk about

1281
00:56:58.405 --> 00:56:59.825
how do you know which question?

1282
00:57:00.095 --> 00:57:03.425
Because you can't ask a billion questions.

1283
00:57:03.485 --> 00:57:05.025
You've gotta really get to

1284
00:57:05.415 --> 00:57:07.505
what is the sweet spot of that question.

1285
00:57:07.525 --> 00:57:10.185
And so I I hope that we'll be able to talk about that too

1286
00:57:10.735 --> 00:57:11.735
Next time, Stuart.

1287
00:57:11.775 --> 00:57:13.625
Yeah, we'll have, we'll have some prep with Fadi

1288
00:57:13.625 --> 00:57:15.545
and we'll make sure we've got a good, good set of questions.

1289
00:57:15.965 --> 00:57:19.465
So, uh, so hopefully, um, hopefully

1290
00:57:19.465 --> 00:57:20.585
that's been useful for people.

1291
00:57:21.125 --> 00:57:23.665
Um, I, I want to just sort of thank you all for coming.

1292
00:57:23.985 --> 00:57:28.665
I want to thank, uh, the team for, for, uh, for coming along

1293
00:57:28.665 --> 00:57:30.025
and sharing their expertise.

1294
00:57:30.645 --> 00:57:33.185
Um, uh, I, I, I really, I mean the,

1295
00:57:33.285 --> 00:57:34.945
the introductions were very, very brief

1296
00:57:35.525 --> 00:57:37.625
and I really can't express enough

1297
00:57:37.775 --> 00:57:39.265
what a high powered team it is

1298
00:57:39.265 --> 00:57:40.825
that we've got on here this, this month.

1299
00:57:41.325 --> 00:57:43.625
So, you know, big thank you to the guys for turning up.

1300
00:57:43.625 --> 00:57:44.625
Really appreciate it.

1301
00:57:45.165 --> 00:57:48.305
Um, but, but what do you mean it's finished already? Yeah.

1302
00:57:48.305 --> 00:57:49.785
That, that's it. We're at the top of the hour.

1303
00:57:49.785 --> 00:57:51.505
Can you believe it? No.

1304
00:57:51.565 --> 00:57:54.025
So it's, it's a little bit like when you go to Fred's house

1305
00:57:54.045 --> 00:57:56.385
for dinner, right?

1306
00:57:56.405 --> 00:57:58.465
You get to the end and you just can't believe it.

1307
00:58:00.805 --> 00:58:03.625
Um, so, uh, so, so good. Thanks everybody.

1308
00:58:04.035 --> 00:58:06.345
Thank you everybody. And, uh, watch out for

1309
00:58:06.345 --> 00:58:07.345
that email from Pretty,

1310
00:58:08.165 --> 00:58:11.385
and if, uh, if you want to have a, a conversation and,

1311
00:58:11.405 --> 00:58:14.625
and start working out how to get your executives attention,

1312
00:58:15.405 --> 00:58:18.065
um, one of the things an email Pretty will send is our

1313
00:58:18.325 --> 00:58:20.665
little workshop that we do to help people get

1314
00:58:20.665 --> 00:58:23.185
that process started, uh, very often with one

1315
00:58:23.185 --> 00:58:24.225
of our partners to do that.

1316
00:58:24.685 --> 00:58:27.145
So if you've been affected by the topics of this,

1317
00:58:27.685 --> 00:58:30.225
of this article, do uh, do get in touch

1318
00:58:30.525 --> 00:58:31.585
and book yourself a session.

1319
00:58:32.455 --> 00:58:35.225
Awesome. Thank you everybody. Really appreciate it.

1320
00:58:35.235 --> 00:58:36.465
Watch out for the next webinar.

1321
00:58:37.165 --> 00:58:39.065
Uh, there's a demo webinar at the end of the month

1322
00:58:39.065 --> 00:58:41.225
and then next month we'll be doing another one of these.

1323
00:58:41.485 --> 00:58:43.825
So Awesome. Thank you everyone. Really appreciate it.