Uh, my name's Stuart Stuart Easton.
Uh, I'm the CEO
and, uh, one of the founders here at Transparent Choice.
And we do a couple of these webinars every month
where we dig into a topic that's interesting to, uh,
business leaders, strategy leaders,
transformation leaders, and PMOs.
And our goal is to help that community of people work better
towards a better future, right?
It's, it's all about driving those business results,
driving the transformation, enabling, uh, change to happen.
That's what this session's all about.
It's about trying to stop the firefighting.
And so, uh, what I'd love, uh, for you all
to do is just give me a quick, uh, a quick
yay in the chat.
Uh, go, go and go find the chat now.
'cause I'm hoping you're all gonna use
it quite a lot, right?
Get involved in the, in the conversation.
So go find the chat now
and just tell me, you know, in, in terms of fires,
how hot is yours?
Right? Is it really, really hot?
You're on fire and you're
just running around the whole time?
Or yeah, you're just feeling a bit warm.
Or actually, are you feeling okay? Yeah.
Taylor's feeling a little cozy. Um, uh, annoying.
Persistent. I like that, Alan.
Um, excellent.
Very good, very good. I love it.
People getting into the spirit.
Um, we should ask like, which circle of hell? Yeah.
Which all of them. All of them all at the same time.
Um, fantastic.
So, I mean, this is such a common problem from the PMO
side, right?
It feels like you're running
around and everything's on fire.
From the executive side, it feels like
those people down there in execution.
Why, why can't they just get stuff done? Right?
We told 'em what to do, why can't they just do it?
And so what we're gonna try
and do today is figure out how you can reconcile those two,
uh, those two viewpoints, and see if we can get some ideas
and advice on how to fix the, the problem, right?
And, and there is one really big problem.
There's a bunch of, there's a bunch of problems,
but there's one really big one that we'll get to, uh,
I suspect at some point during the conversation, uh,
around alignment and joining things together.
Um, so, uh, I'd like to introduce the panelists.
I, I, I've, I'm immensely lucky in my, um,
I was gonna say my job, it's kind of a hobby going around,
speaking at conferences and things.
I meet amazing people.
Three of them, three, three of them are on here, uh, today.
So we're gonna start with Rebecca.
Rebecca, um, Rebecca Reynolds, um, uh, is a consultant
who works primarily with, uh, senior executives like the,
the, the C-suite, the director level people in, uh,
mostly US federal government agencies,
helping them figure out, you know, what's our strategy
and how do we make sure it happens Okay.
In a, in a nutshell. Fair, fair summary, Rebecca?
Yep. Yeah. Okay. That's good. We're done.
So, Rebecca's here, she's gonna bring
that executive view, right?
The view from the boardroom.
'cause she's in the room when the conversations are
happening, and she's the one trying
to help the execs figure it out.
Then from the other side of the, the chasm shouting across
and throwing his, throwing his, uh, death stars
is Frederick Casagrande, uh, a really good friend
of mine out in Dubai, Fred is French,
yet somehow he's made friends with a Brit.
Dunno how that happened. Um,
but Fred has run multiple PMOs over the years.
Uh, several of them, like multi-billion dollar PMOs.
Uh, he was on board of the PMO Global Alliance for years, as
that was kind of really growing.
Um, uh, before the PMI bought it,
I think it was Fred, correct?
Um, so Fred's here in the blue corner representing the PMOs
in this to, to bring that PMO lens.
Yeah, he is ready for the fight.
And Mike, Mike can bring some experience from both sides of
that, that argument actually in his, in his, uh,
professional life, uh, ex ex nasa, um, uh,
super, super smart guy.
Really, really nice guy as well.
But the reason he's here is that, uh, for today, um, uh, is
that, um, Mike happens to be one of the world's premier
experts on how to get projects
and transformation programs flying, right?
Just massively increasing the velocity of delivery.
Um, so he is written a book on it.
Oh, I should have picked it up.
I think I've got one or two of them over there.
Um, but he, you know, he is written a book on this topic,
um, and, uh, it's really worth a read for anybody
who is interested in this.
He's, it was very wise.
It's a thin book, which means idiots like me can read it.
Uh, and it uses simple words.
Unlike Rebecca's book, which uses very complex words, uh,
I have to struggle to keep up with Rebecca Subtype.
Um, so, so Mike's here to help us figure out how
to bridge the gap and how to give executives what it is
that they really, really want, right?
So we've got, we've got those three lenses
that we're gonna look at this through today.
So Rebecca, let's start with you and it, and, and folks,
before we dive in, this is absolutely
gonna be a conversation.
Um, it's a conversation, uh, not just
between the four of us.
We'd like it to be a conversation with you as well.
So I've got chat open on a separate screen over here.
If you drop questions and comments in, I will try
and work them into the conversation.
So, Rebecca, what's it like in the boardroom?
You walk in, execs are not happy, stuff's not happening.
What's the mood like? What are they saying?
Well, so I think it's various, right?
I mean, there are those execs who are struggling themselves
with how to articulate
and get clear about what they want to happen, okay?
So that's a problem in of itself,
and we've all experienced that down below, right?
It's confusing, it's not consistent.
It may not even be strategic, right?
It feels more like micromanaging.
So that's a, that's one sort of special kind of problem.
And that means my work is to really get those folks
to focus on big strategic outcomes for the organization.
The other issue is that they have that,
or think they have that
and they don't understand why it's not getting down to the,
you know, to the level of execution.
I will say, I don't think execs really think about it.
It takes a very enlightened leader to actually care
about the experience down there.
What they're gonna respond to,
and this is so important to remember, is the issues
that are constraining the organization from realizing
those goals and told to execs in a way they can understand
that is the trick.
How can we help those, the manager level to
communicate in such a way that it lands
and talking about problems
or, you know, your difficult
experience is generally not gonna work
because they don't really care.
I mean, like I said, it's a very unusual exec who goes,
I really wanna understand my people's experience.
They're just trying to get the job done.
So those are the two sort of, uh, sort
of sweet spots that I work in.
So, Fred, what, what, how do you react to that?
What do you, what do you think? What do you see?
Well, I think it's, um, it's, it's a real struggle.
Um, and, you know, we always talk about the communication
and how it is responsibility of the standard to ensure
that the message is clearly received
and understood by the receiver.
Um, unfortunately, there is clearly a disconnect between the
planning and delivery layer, which is the PMOs
and the, the delivery teams, um, at the,
at the middle management.
And sometimes even if we talk about the sponsors at the,
the senior level of the organization
and the executive leadership, so the executive leadership,
they think they're clear in their communication to the,
the lower layers that are supposed to execute.
But, you know, conversely,
that middle layer is also not
very clear in the communication towards the executive.
So, so I think there is a two way problem here in terms of
managing and also managing upwards.
Yeah. Okay.
So, so, uh, Mike, I wanna bring you in on, on, um,
'cause I, I think you're gonna have a a,
a particular thought on this.
Um, so Stuart Dixon, uh,
in the chat has said what they should do.
They being the executive, the leadership team, I think, uh,
is, uh, get those senior leaders to do a, a day in the life
of project manager PMO so they understand the issues.
Mike, what do you think of that?
I don't think, you know, Stuart,
so you can say exactly what you, I know, Stuart,
Your name looks familiar, so I have
to dig through my LinkedIn, I guess.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I both, I both, uh, agree
and disagree vehemently at the same time.
What I agree with is a little empathy goes a long way.
And, uh, while I, while, uh,
certainly my experience is consistent,
what Rebecca said about, uh, look, even if I'm an executive
who deeply cares about my people and,
and they do exist, at the end of the day,
we're all here to do a job.
And like, we don't wanna hear a bunch of whining, right?
So let's put our big boy and big girl pants on
and get some work done, right?
Um, the, the way I vehemently disagree with it is
the best way to engage executives is not on your turf,
but on theirs, right?
And that's just true of all humans meet them where they are.
And I think too many PMs have been trained to,
to speak in sort of heads down execution, pm speak,
you know, pm geek speak kind of language,
and that just, that'll turn off most executives faster than
anything I've ever seen, right?
So there, there has to be some way to unite around a set
of common objectives, which presumably we all share,
Right?
Right. Yeah, I mean, uh, uh, uh, hang on.
I mean, in my experience, most people,
in most organizations, at every level,
they're not just turning up for the paycheck,
they're turning up because they, they wanna,
they wanna do something valuable, right?
They wanna do something useful.
We all wanna be part of a winning team.
I've never, you know, oh, there
You go again, it all, it keeps coming back
to the Super Bowl with you today, Mike.
That's twice,
Sorry, I have no dog in that fight.
But, um, but any case, uh, you know, this, this notion that,
um, hey, we're, we're all humans.
And except for the rare sociopath, uh, we do care about, uh,
team success more than individual success.
We're not always incentivized this way, way.
And again, sometimes egos certainly can get in the way,
but I think, uh, again, if there's a choice
between individual success
and being part of just an incredible
team, the team usually wins.
And I, you know, go back
to like the Chicago Bulls of the 1980s.
A bunch of superstars with giant egos
who hated each other's guts,
but they put all that animosity aside
because they shared a common objective.
But I think to your point, Mike, you know,
there is one thing that I noticed in particular since the
end of COVID, is there is a, a general
layer of disgruntle across every industry, um,
pretty much every, every country that,
that was not existing before COVID.
So I think it, it's emphasized by the fact
that they felt isolation and that forced reflection.
We have now team members who show up just for the paycheck.
They're not actively going against the project objectives,
but it's like, well, you know, as long
as I cannot get fired, I'm fine.
Well, I think that's not just a result of COVID.
I've seen that for 30 years.
There's always that, that component of the organization.
And I don't, you know, I think it's even worse in
US federal government.
We have a lot of people who just hang out.
But, um, to me, that's just sort of, the cost
of doing business is always gonna be folks like that.
To me, the trick is getting to the people who really,
as Mike said, care about that greater good.
And that greater good has to be communicated and articulated
and discovered, if you will, first
by executive leadership, that's their job.
And without it, everybody else is just treading water.
And there's good reason for people hanging out.
There's nothing that they're being inspired to do.
I mean, nobody's inspired by a to-do list, a checklist,
a bunch of little tasks that's just so boring.
We've got to feel that there's something bigger.
And you know, I tell my execs if you can't and, and,
and, you know, articulate that in a way that is compelling
to your people, you're,
you've lost the, you've lost the whole game. So,
So we were talking a minute ago about kind of shared goals
and things like that, Rebecca, so in the boardroom,
do you think the board, the members of the board, uh,
or the senior leaders of the organization,
generally speaking, are on the same page of
what they're trying to achieve, what their strategy is?
Do they, do they have clarity?
No. No. They're human, like everybody else.
They're very involved in their own little areas.
That's the biggest challenge.
That's one reason I've used decision lens so much is,
excuse me, transparent choice.
Sorry, Stuart. I've used decision lens too,
but Transparent Choice is better.
Great. Um, one of the reasons I use it is
because we need
to get those folks from their very disparate areas
where they have a ton of pressure
and a ton of, you know, sort of world and language.
How do we bring them together so they can really
articulate something that is compelling and interesting?
Yeah, because also, I mean, there is one thing that the,
the regular people like us tend to forget,
Rebecca, board members.
We, we think of them as omnipotent,
but they also report to someone.
Absolutely. You gotta serve somebody, as Bob Dylan says.
Yeah,
Yeah. No, that's
absolutely true.
And, and the, the interesting thing is that, that, um, uh,
okay, so activity time, you know, quick thumbs up.
If you feel in your organization you have stove
pipes, right?
So you've got, you've got people in their own little part
of the organization that care about their part
of the organization and don't care
or understand about other parts of the organization, right?
This is a really common thing,
and it exists right up into the leadership team where,
you know, one part of the leadership team really just
doesn't, doesn't know
or care what other parts of the leadership team are doing.
So, um, so re Rebecca, you've got this really nice analogy
between the, the head and the body, which will come
to a second, but the, the, the leadership team,
like the head, and I'll let you explain it.
The leadership team is like, like the head.
And if, if your head is pointing all is trying
to lead you in lots of different directions,
then the body can't deliver, right?
So, so we're getting to, one of the, the biggest causes
of the, the firefighting down at the execution level is the,
the fundamentally your leadership are trying
to take you in different directions.
And as a consequence, there's no clarity about what we need
to do and how much, you know, and, and,
and where to put the resources to get the most value.
And so everybody keeps trying to pull the,
pull the resources in different directions,
and that, that, that can lead to a lot of frustration
and that, that feeling of firefighting.
So, so Rebecca, why don't you just kind, kind of talk us
through for a second your, your, um, head and body
and neck analogy.
'cause I think it's really kind of interesting
'cause we're, we're gonna talk about the
neck quite a bit, I think.
Well, I just always say that the, like you said,
exact team is like the head.
And so the head is supposed to be on top
and supposed to be creating clarity
and a direction mean, right?
The body's supposed to execute, and if there's no neck
or the neck is blocked, we've got a head, you know,
a disembodied head roaming around,
and, uh, a body that's just sort of,
you know, trying to do whatever.
So I always think of, you know, let's build a really strong,
clear neck, which is the communication flow between the two.
And that is from both sides.
I'm, I do think that, I mean,
my job when I go into the execs is to say
to them, are you clear?
No. Are you communicating in a way
that your people will understand?
Often not. So the communication, right, goes both ways.
As, as, um, Frederick said, um, and,
but when I'm working in the, you know, with the execs,
I'm talking to them about how they're pushing down.
When I'm talking down here, I'm talking about
what are the questions?
And I think the questions is the powerful way
for the lower levels to get across to, to the upper levels,
asking questions that are not inflammatory,
but are actually based in real curiosity
and trying to get what people need to move.
Brilliant. And I'll add that, uh,
a great tactic you can employ to arrive at
what Rebecca just described.
If you're a senior PM or a PMO leader
or aspire to be one someday is okay, uh, in order
to achieve X, assuming X is clear, we must,
because often the execs don't understand the, the, the part
after we must, right?
They just feel like, well, we have a bunch of people, like,
we have a bunch of money, let's go get it done.
Uh, okay, well, in order to achieve those objectives, here's
what must be become true.
Uh, that then shifts the conversation to, Hey,
we already gave you the priorities and the clarity.
Now go execute. And don't bother me till it's done to, ah,
okay, we're in this together.
We, we have a shared set of objectives,
but it has to be something we can achieve.
Realistically, that doesn't mean unambitious.
I think it can be absolutely lofty
and should be ambitious, uh, but still achievable.
Yeah. I also wanna say, just put a pin in culture
that I think execs oftentimes aren't really thinking
about how important their culture is,
the culture they're in, particularly when that CEO
or any of the C-suite is moving around so much.
Each entity has its own culture based on
where it is in the world, based on its own history.
And when we're communicating big things,
there's particularly things that are gonna shift
or be in a very innovative, or,
or big, like Mike was saying, visionary.
We need to find a way to communicate it
that fits the culture.
And I mean, you know, culturally, strategy every day, right?
So I think that's another piece, becoming aware of culture,
which is really hard because it's like trying
to become aware of your own, you know,
world from the inside out.
So,
So, so let's bring it, let's bring it down a level
so when the head's a bit disorganized, doesn't know
where it wants to go, and you know, your left ears trying
to take you this way, and your right
ear is trying to take you that way.
Um, Fred, what does that do in the portfolio?
What does that do to the PMO?
What does that mean in terms of workload
and getting stuff done and delivering?
Well see, I mean, every time there is one priority
that is identified
or perceived that understood, uh, you, you have to picture
the portfolio of a, of a medium to large organization
as a, a boat.
Like, you know, the Titanic, right?
It's a very heavy structure.
It goes in one direction,
and by the time you change the direction,
it takes a long time for the boat to actually go towards
where you, you steer.
Um, and if there is,
if there is a limited alignment at the top,
and then suddenly there are two executives
or a communication coming from the top
that goes in two directions,
all we are doing is we we're turning the wheel,
but the boat never moves.
And one thing that we know for sure at our level,
we are not going in the right direction,
but we don't know how to go in the right direction
because we don't know where the right direction is.
And, and so Mike, what impact does that have?
And I'm thinking of your little, um,
you know, your root cause thing.
Um, what impact does that have on your ability to actually
deliver, um, business results?
I mean, you know, having played
that game more times than I, than I can count.
Uh, you basically have no choice,
but like, if you're in the hot seat, PMO leader,
senior pm whatever, you have almost no choice
but to choose, uh, which executive to listen to
and which one to ignore, right?
So you're picking the one usually, uh,
that has more power, right?
So if I have to anger somebody, I wanna anger the person
that has the least power, right?
Or at least the least power to harm me in my career, right?
Um, and that's a, that's a terrible reality,
but one that I think executives don't quite understand.
Like, I don't think they realize that
until they find a better way, like using transparent choice
to harmonize the, the, the disparate points of view
that are natural in any group of humans.
Um, but, but you gotta harmonize that so
that it comes across as cogent and complete and clear.
And I, I know that this is priority number one,
and that's priority number two,
and that's priority number three.
And we can get it all done within our resource constraints.
Um, but not just by, uh, you know,
going into mad scramble mode.
And, and when you go into mad
scramble, what, what, what happens?
Nothing, Right?
Very, very little maybe is a better way. A lot of
Ways of time and energy,
What exactly what happens is burnout, it's turn, uh,
turnover, it's, you know, people leaving.
Yeah. It's what what happens is a real catastrophe
for the organization, but it's only when you need
to recover from that stage that you start realizing
how much damage has been done.
I also wanna point out, since we're talking
to folks at the PMO level more, um, the most powerful thing
that the body can do is to feed up through the neck
to the execs large scale questions that help execs
to see something they hadn't seen before.
And I had, I've had this many times with clients
where they were frustrated, complaining, seeing things, oh,
why don't the execs see this?
And I'm like, because you're not telling them
and they need to hear from you,
and they don't need to hear it as a complaint.
We all know that. Nobody likes people
who come in and complain.
What they need to hear is
what this gap in their view is causing.
And that could either be a lack of opportunity, a loss
of money, uh, you know, a a as Frederick just said, a a,
a problem with morale.
If we can speak to them
and show them from where we are seeing things
that have a large impact on their worldview,
that can actually influence the strategy
and the vision of the C-suite.
And I think that's the kind of manager that execs
really appreciate, as long as it's done, you know,
authentically questions that are sort of snide
and why didn't, you know, you know,
that kind of thing doesn't work. So,
But, But, but, but, you know, I mean, sorry, Stuart
saying at, at the beginning of this, uh, the conversation
that no one wants to be not on the winning team.
That's true for, for, for the working level,
but it's also true for the executives.
I mean, there is no board member
who wants the company who's on the board of to fail.
So rather than thinking either they are,
quote unquote, and pardon my French, right,
I'm gonna be candid, they're morons
or they are incompetent, they're not,
they think they're doing the best that they can.
And sometimes we need to force this feedback loop to them
and tell them, well, hang on a minute.
And it can be an elevator pitch, it can be a conversation,
you know, in a corridor it can be anything.
But sometimes I, I see some of my C levels, uh, at, at work.
I literally have 30 seconds windows with them.
I have to make it count.
So, so, uh, rain asked a question about
how do you get the executives from providing projects
basically loudest, you know, he shouts loudest wins.
And instead providing the strategy
and letting the prioritization process identify the projects
that meet the strategy best.
I think that's a really
insightful question, rain, thank you for that.
Um, and, uh, I could, at this point,
I could launch into a whole thing about transparent choice.
'cause that's what we do all day long.
That's, that's what our software does.
But I, I think the question isn't about the tool.
If you walk in and say, you guys suck.
We need a tool, I guarantee
that will land like a lead balloon, right?
Um, so how do you do that?
How do you have that conversation?
So Rebecca, what would you like to hear from the body
when the head's confused, right?
How do you, how do you help them put in place that process?
So what I, and I just said it in the chat, tore, um, it's
absolutely correct what you're saying.
I want people to remember, a lot of execs have gotten there
because they were good managers, right?
And they weren't given any clear training or,
or, you know, understanding of what the difference is
between just projects and strategy.
And that's just a crime
because they're up there micromanaging, right?
And it's terrible. So what I recommend is
that people start asking them questions about things
that strategy covers, right?
Instead of, you know, which, which project is more important
to you, asking about longer term goals
that those projects are trying to accomplish.
That's, that's where leadership's mind should be.
And if somebody, if people are down here
asking those questions mm-hmm.
They're going to have to think that way, right?
Love it. So, so Mike, you've got a, a technique
that you use, a tool that you use, uh,
when you're having this conversation.
So part of it is about talking
to the execs about their problems, right?
So it's not about, oh, life down here is so hard
'cause you guys dunno what you're doing, right?
That's not the approach. It's about saying, Hey guys,
I know you're really fed up, that projects take too long
and cost too much, and they never deliver what you want.
So why don't we do some root cause analysis.
So when you do that, Mike, and you do your death spiral,
and then you're, um, uh, whatever, the opposite
of a death spiral is a life
Spiral.
Yeah. There you go. Um, so, so why don't you talk us
through that a little bit, because
that's really interesting.
So, so if you talk to the execs about, Hey,
your problem is 1, 2, 3,
and then help them understand what the root cause
of those problems is.
So, Mike, do you wanna talk a little bit about that?
I should have warned you
because you might, you might have pulled one up,
but I just, just give us the, the high,
high idea, high pitch. Yeah, no,
You know, this, this, you know, vicious
to virtuous cycle stuff
and how to build, you know, complex, logical cause
and effect relationships and,
and, you know, systems
dynamics, modeling and all this stuff.
It, we, we tend to make it sound fancier than it's right.
Uh, it's all about, um, you know, many of us have heard
of the five why's, right?
If we just ask why, you know, it could be five times,
it could be, uh, maybe even a little more than five times,
but it not pro it's probably not a thousand times.
Uh, so some manageable number of saying, well,
why do projects cost so long, uh, cost so much
and take so long, right?
Um, why is it hard
to get a clear sense of priorities around here?
Why do we have three number ones, right?
And how might we, uh, by the way, that's another little tip.
Anything, any question that you start with, how might we,
uh, is automatically a good question, right?
Because you're already assuming
that we share something in common
and we're trying to go wrestle with some challenge
or problem and solve it together.
And if you, if you frame everything that way, uh,
you will win allies every way you go.
And so if you say, well,
how might we make sure
we're actually attacking the root cause?
Um, the classic example is, you know, uh,
software quality in your code base might be
suffering more and more over time.
Every project you get done seems to degrade it further, uh,
when the opposite should be true.
Uh, so a lot of organizations say, well, we need
to get serious about quality.
We need to have a quality assurance initiative
or a quality control thing.
We're gonna go all learn about quality
techniques, blah, blah, blah.
But if the root cause isn't poor quality practices,
but it's this sense of overload, right?
And just get more done
and don't worry about the code base getting all messed up
as we go, well, then, uh,
we will never get outta that, right?
No, no quality initiative will ever solve that, right?
So this, uh, just taking a, a little bit of extra time
and energy, having these healthy conversations, um,
like Rebecca was talking about, to say, Hey, guys, uh,
we all share the same objectives here.
How might we actually go achieve them together that can,
uh, get right to the root cause?
I would also just add on to what Mike's saying, that
I find that most of the time, if not
all the time, the real problem is not
that, that kind of thing.
It's, it's a lack of understanding of where we're headed
and how that prioritization.
That's why transparent choice is so important.
We have to know where to say no.
And we don't like to say no as adults.
We don't, we like to say, oh, yes, yes,
I can do everything, but that's not true.
We can't do everything and why would we wanna do everything?
It just thins us out into nothing.
So we wanna be really good at a few things,
and leadership has to decide that because,
and they have to have the rigor to hold it to,
and that is something that I think we also see is
that there's a lack of rigor in when we've chosen, you know,
it's like somebody comes in with another great idea
and the head gets turned toward it, right?
So it's it's
The flavor of the month, Yes.
The flavor of the month. And also the new leader comes in
and has to make his or her mark on everything.
And it's just like, you know, to me, the strategies
that are really important are the ones that endure beyond
the, the tenure of the, of the leaders.
So I had a, an interesting conversation a couple
of weeks ago with a guy called Offer, offer, offer, offer.
Oh, I can't remember his surname right now.
It doesn't matter. But he is a,
a university professor in Australia, uh, who focuses on, uh,
project management, portfolio management type issues
and strategy execution.
And, uh, he fairly recently published a paper that looked at
what drives Project Success.
And by project success,
I very specifically mean the organization achieves some
value, right?
And what he found is that there is a threshold
of project competence that you need, right?
But sometimes that threshold's not very high.
In fact, often it's not very high.
And the thing that really drove, say again, Mike,
I don't think it has to be high.
I think average humans can be set up
to great stuff, but keep going. Sorry. Well,
So we'll come to that in a sec, I think.
But so, so the thing that really drove success
was having a clear definition of what the value is,
and then focusing on delivering the value.
I mean, it's kind of simple, right?
And the same thing's true at the portfolio level.
If you, you know, if you try
and do too much, you do less, you don't do more.
So there's, I I call it the, so there's a bunch
of researchers, a a rule that I call the, the rule
of fifties, right?
So if you cut your project load by 50%,
your velocity will go up by 50%
and you'll actually deliver more, right?
And Mike, that's one of the things that you do.
And whenever you go into a client, right?
Yeah. In fact, I would say it's more like, uh, you, you,
you, you cut the, you cut the congestion in half
and you'll double the throughput,
which makes sense if you've ever been
stuck in, in a traffic jet.
Yeah. So, so, so that question of rains about
how do you get execs to pay attention to
that is, is really critical.
So, um, I, I think so, yeah, Fred,
Go ahead. I, I,
I have the, the billion dollar question for all
of us at the execution and, and planning
and delivery layer, how do we get access to those guides
so we can actually tell them?
I was about to come to you to ask that question, right?
So for, because Fred's here to represent
that PMO lens, right?
And it's not always easy,
and it's, Fred, would you say it's culture dependent?
Would,
I mean, it's certainly is more emphasized in some parts
of the world, and I would say in every, in every, uh,
geographical culture where the formal, uh, hierarchy
is, is, you know, more important.
Uh, anytime that you have a culture that has a,
a power distance that is clearly established, um, you know,
a board member st level will not talk to you
if you are VP or below.
So, so the, so the, so part of the question here then is
how do you get their attention and correct,
and, you know, there, there are lots of ways of doing that.
Um, you know, one of the things I would suggest
that you can do, because at the end of the day, I think
what everybody has said in different ways is
that getting clar strategic clarity
and focus from the executive team having a strong
Process to align your resources to your strategy, right?
So let's call that prioritize.
You can call it prioritization,
we can call it capacity planning,
you can call it whatever you want to call it, right?
But having a strong process that that prioritizes
and aligns, um, your strategy is what's gonna drive,
it's gonna fix a lot of that firefighting.
It's the root cause of all of that.
You know, a lot of the, the hair on fire
antics that we see out there.
So, so if you can't get directly,
or if you don't have strong support
from the leadership team, uh, Mike, I'm gonna come
to you then Rebecca, I'm gonna come
to you right from opposite sides if you like.
Uh, 'cause Mike, I know you've done this a lot with,
uh, Laura and the crew.
How do you go and get their attention,
you know, in, in practice?
I know what it says in Laura's purple book, Laura,
we're talking about Laura Barnard, her purple book.
I know what it says in the purple book.
What, what's the reality? How do you do it?
Well, uh, this is a tricky one, especially culturally,
and it can be a bit risky depending on, uh, on your culture,
but I find it very effective to say, Hey guys,
if if this is not a priority for you
to even find 10 minutes on your calendar to meet with me
and chat about the objectives,
then why should it be priority for me?
That usually gets some attention.
Might not be as favorable
as you might prefer depending on your culture,
but it, you, you, at some point,
there's a flip over the desk moment, right?
Where you can keep trudging along knowing you're heading
for a dead end, which could also be very career limiting.
Uh, or you have to raise your hand
and say, guys, I don't get it.
Uh, I think we need more clarity or more guidance,
or more something, because this does not align with
what a high priority project should look like.
Fred, do you wanted to interject?
Yeah, I mean, the, the answer, the answer I would get,
and I, I got that answer a couple
of times when I coincidentally managed to catch a guy,
you know, in front of his, uh, of his office.
Uh, you know, if it's not a priority
for you, why should it be for me?
Because, because that's what I pay you for.
This is where you get the clear message, you know,
you gotta find a way to figure it out without them.
And, uh, it is, it is a struggle.
So there was, there's one actually,
there's one that sort of, can
I go, can I Just here, so go ahead.
One of the, I mean, I've dealt with this many, many, many,
many times, and what I find is that it is
the managers challenge
to find the thing that is going to get the attention
from further up, which means the manager,
and I know it's hard, it's, it doesn't even seem fair,
but if a manager can frame,
and that's one of the things I work with them on,
is frame their issue in terms
that execs care about, they will get elevated.
And I usually just go right to the guy right above wherever,
you know, the, the level right above where we are
and bring the message there.
If it doesn't land, we redo it and we get it.
We do, we tune it and change it
and focus on it until we get that level attention.
And then that level moves it up.
And we've also tried it from top down.
We've gone over the, over the top and brought it down.
We, we'll, I'll try anything. I don't care.
I assume it's not personal. I assume it's Yeah.
But then again, doable. I,
I fully agree with you.
But then again, this is the perspective of somebody
who has been brought in by the executives to fix the problem
that they've already taken, uh, uh,
or acknowledged, meaning the moment you are, you are
into help them,
they already know they have this level of problems. Um,
But I'm also talking Frederick,
I'm stage, I've been hired also
by those managers to get up there.
So that's what I was just talking about.
I also work with that level
because, you know, they're also
struggling and they don't know why.
And, and we look at it
and we go, oh, the reason is coming from the top
and they don't know it.
And so how do we get that piece of information up there? And
By The way, and, and so what's, well, hang on,
Mike, just gimme a sec, if you would.
So the, the message that I hope you're all getting from
this, which is what I suspected was gonna happen,
is there isn't one way to do it.
No. There Are lots of ways to do it.
It's culture dependent.
Um, you can be as un subtle as you know, Mike,
I think it was you that was telling a story about a customer
who came to you and said, look, I'll pay you 10 grand
to come and present my paper, right?
Because, 'cause you are from outside, right? Yeah.
So Fred, that's what you were saying, right?
That's what I was gonna say. I mean, this morning
People like us to de-risk the situation.
Absolutely. This morning I had, uh,
I had a meeting about something related to the,
to the delivery of the ne next regulatory period.
And the outcome of that meeting was, let's bring one
of the big fours, because whatever,
even if they tell the executives
what we have been telling them for six months,
it's gonna land where they're not listening to us.
So that's exactly it, right? Yeah.
And, and that Rebecca might be one vehicle.
Absolutely. So that, you know, that's one way of doing it.
Um, another way that I've seen work really well is
to just kind of take an incremental approach where you find
one small problem that you can fix that the execs feel
and fix it just to get their attention right,
and then fix another one.
Do it really quickly and get their attention right.
That, that can work. Um, uh, another,
another method I've seen is to just sit down
and build a case for change, right?
To sit down and actually quantify.
Um, so the way I talk about it is the, the, the, the,
the head, the heart, and the heartbreak, right?
So there's a, so quantify the business case, right?
The financial business case, you know, projects are failing,
we're missing deadlines.
There, there's a financial aspect to that.
There's the heart, which is that as a, as an exec,
I'm frustrated because I, I don't know what's going on.
I don't know how my projects are connected to my, I know
what my strategy is, even if you don't,
and I don't see the connection
between the portfolio and my Strat, right?
That's a heart thing. I, I feel uncomfortable.
So we can fix that, right? You can fix that pretty easily.
Um, and, and then the heartbreak is the one where, you know,
I, I always think that any spectacular project failure
is a golden opportunity to walk into the boardroom
and present your root cause analysis.
And to say, the reason fundamentally is that, you know,
you do your whys right?
Why we didn't have enough resources. Why?
Because we've got too many projects. Why?
Because our prioritization process is broken.
Oh, what would you like to do about that? Guys?
I know what, let's fix it. Right? It's their idea.
It's not your idea. You're just
presenting some context, right? Let it be their idea.
You know, embedded in
that Stuart is a huge insight I wanna make sure everyone
captures, which is you're helping them see their system
better than they do.
Yep. That can make you an enormously valuable person.
Because if you're, if you're meeting me where I am
as an executive, you're helping me understand this system
that often looks like a black box to me.
Because you have ways to peer into the black box, right?
Closer to how the work actually gets done than I do.
And if you could say, here's how the system, here's
where the system is breaking down, here's
how we can fix the system
that gets the attention way more than, oh,
you gotta gimme more resources.
Or how come you can't clarify your priorities better?
Or, you know, all the, you know, all the finger wagging
that you might otherwise do.
Well, and I think that word system is really important
because, um, I, I just wanna also name this.
So often we think a problem can only be fixed
with more money, more resources.
And that is so tiresome
to execs, they don't wanna hear that.
But system change governance, how the flow of things,
there is so much potential there.
We waste so much time with terrible governance
or invisible governance or gaps in governance.
And I, when I talk about governance, I mean the flow of how
communications and decisions are made so
that things can happen.
And if we can, that's the thing that we did.
We brought a huge governance gap to leadership
and said, if you will solve this governance gap in this way,
and we're open to other ideas,
but if you'll solve this, we can,
we can change the landscape here.
And, and leadership is like, whoa,
let's, let's look at that. So
Let's, let's put that into perspective, right?
Let's make it kind of real.
Um, anybody, anybody from the UK on here?
Actually, Stuart Stewart's from the uk.
Uh, I know that, um, I haven't seen anybody else. Who else?
I, anyway, anyone else from the uk?
So in the UK we have this thing
called the National Health Service.
We all love it, it's wonderful, it's an amazing institution.
But is it efficient? Hmm. No, not really.
Um, so they are going
through a very large change at the moment.
And as a general rule,
the governance processes are not working well in the NHS.
So I was speaking to a an NHS PMO
eight months ago, something like that.
And she said, yeah, the execs came
and they, they just gave me 120 projects to do.
They said, we've looked at the strategy.
Here are 120 projects, to which I responded,
I can't deliver a hundred, I can't deliver anywhere
near 120 projects.
And their answer was, anyone wanna have a
guess what their answer was?
Figure it out. Say it again, Mike.
Figure it out. You got it. Just get it done.
Just get it done. Right? That's what we've useful.
Yeah, well, exactly.
So they launched 120 projects, um, in the audience,
fingers on keyboards, if you please have a guess out
of 120 projects, how many did they actually finish?
You only get points when you finish you 12.
You only get points when you finish.
Oh God, you lot a pessimistic, Oh,
we got a whole bunch of EOS on the call today.
Good grief. Um, yeah, so they, they,
they finished about 20, right?
They finished about 20. So, so think about that, right?
They put a load of investment into a hundred projects
that never delivered value.
Imagine if they just taken that effort
and put it into another 10 or 20 projects.
They could have delivered 50
or a hundred percent more value by doing that.
That is not a project execution problem.
That is a governance problem.
It's a decision making problem.
So, um, uh, so, you know, I think Rebecca,
your point is absolutely spot on
and, you know, we, we see it again and again and again.
The vast majority of problems in project delivery are
actually caused at the governance layer.
Yeah, we've got, so we've got, I just wanna sort
of sum up, we've got the lack of true strategy, meaning
that it's big picture, not a list of projects.
That's absolutely not strategy.
Second, we have, uh, the systems, the governance,
the flow of how things get done that's often just archaic
and ridiculous and we, and invisible.
So we're getting shot in the foot all the time.
And the third one that is absolutely critical is the
overarching culture in which all of this exists.
And you all are in your culture, so you know what they are.
And oh, I also wanna say a fourth thing.
It goes back to what Frederick and Mike were saying, that
bringing someone in from the outside is often the way
to get it to move.
I know that seems kind of frustrating.
It's like, we've been saying this,
why do you need somebody from the outside?
It's just the reality. Get over it.
Bring somebody in to help you deliver it.
They don't have to deliver it for you.
But just the fact that you've got someone from the
outside who's validating it, who has years
of experience doing it, helps leadership feel
that it's not political, it's not personal.
So it's just, it's just how the game is played.
So I think those four things are really important for,
you know, for us to hone in on.
Love it. Love it.
So, so we, we've sort of come, we, we've talked about some
of the root causes of inefficiency.
We've talked about a little bit about
how if you get alignment right and you prioritize properly
and you don't overload your people projects go faster.
Um, let's, let's come back to where we started
and talk a little bit about communication.
So, um, uh,
somebody at the beginning, I've forgotten who it was.
Oh, it was Stuart, wasn't it?
Said, oh, we just need to get them down here to do the,
you know, day in the life I'm gonna be stronger than Mike.
Actually, I'm gonna disagree more strongly.
Stuart, at the end of the day,
the leadership team is the customer, right?
The PMO is there to deliver their strategy.
They're not there to serve us. We're there to serve them.
So that means, and we, we've, we've heard it a bunch
of times that we need to meet them where they are, right?
So how, how, what, what are the, what are the changes that
people on this webinar need to make to mindset,
to their language, to their knowledge
to enable that to happen?
And, and Fred, I'm, I'm gonna come over
to you first actually on this one
'cause, um, it's a really tough one
and you've, you've probably battled more diverse cultures
than the rest of us put together.
So you probably have some quite unique insights.
Yeah, it's, um, it's a tough question. Um,
Have I stumped the great Frederick Cassa Grande?
No, I haven't. It's just the,
I dunno, I'm, I'm trying to find, uh,
to find a summarized a summarized answer to the question,
but I I don't think I have one.
Um, because for sure the more,
the more culturally diverse your environment is,
the more you, you're gonna, you're gonna risk, um,
to trip yourself on something
that is not actually the, the question or the problem.
I dunno, I don't, Stuart,
Uh, Mike, you wanna have a go?
It's a tough one.
I always, I always get back to the objectives
and the system, right?
So a lot of us PMs have heard the old story, uh,
or the fable fetch me a rock, right?
And so if a customer
or sponsor says, go fetch me a rock, you say, okay,
well I'm gonna go and press him and get the biggest
rock I possibly can.
And so you do. And they say, no, not that rock.
They say, okay, I'm gonna go run
and get the most expensive rock I can.
And you find a diamond and you bring it back
and they say, no, not that rock.
And at some point you're gonna stop
and say, well, wait, what are you
trying to achieve with the rock?
Maybe I should have asked that from the get go,
but I was so busy trying to impress you, you know, um,
pardon me and say, I'm just trying to teach my son how
to skip a rock across the pond.
Ah, well now we're getting somewhere, right?
And so some clarity on the objectives,
rather than just go fetch me a rock.
Um, because again, you might have thought as the executive,
well, I'm sitting here with my son trying to skip rocks.
It's, it should be obvious what I'm trying to achieve.
Well, maybe not, right?
May maybe, you know, from where I stand, I had no idea
that was your son or what you were doing, um,
or whether it's even related to this challenge.
So a few simple questions like
what are we actually trying to achieve here?
Yeah. Uh, and then follow that up with a
how might we, right?
And always do the we as a system.
Then I think you're, you're gonna,
you're gonna set the conversation up
for higher probability of success.
Well, I mean, the, the reason why I'm, I'm,
I'm a bit baffled in, in trying
to answer that question, okay?
So it's, it's, uh,
it's a story I've ha I've faced at work a couple
of months ago, um, related to, you know,
the age old question about implementing earned value
management across the whole portfolio.
And the CEO asked a question.
He asked a question in a very small committee
of the executive management team.
Somebody in the executive management team picked
that question to address it.
They reframe that question in their own understanding,
not being a project person directed it to
the, the, their peer in my line of management
who directed it to my line manager who directed it to me.
So that's four levels of filters.
Now, when I asked my line manager
what exactly is the CEO's problem, they answered
what they thought they understood from the C level, which is
what they thought they understood from the other C level,
which is what they thought they understood from the CEO.
The first meeting I managed to have in front of the CEO
to actually explain what I was thinking, to be the answer
to the question of the question of the question
of the question of the question, I understood
that his problem was absolutely
nowhere related to any of that.
But again, because we do not have face time with this level
of people, it's very difficult for us to actually
narrow down what is it, what ex
what exactly is your problem statement?
Not your symptom, but your problem statement.
But there's something, there's something really important
in the, in there, Fred, that I wanna pull out.
And it, it, it aligns with Mike as well.
What you've both said in different ways is that
wherever you, whatever your environment is, you need
to understand the business, you need
to understand the business problems, you need
to understand the business goals, the language
of the business, right?
So Fred, the reason that you could do that when you're
with A CEO is 'cause you,
you actually understand the business and how it works
and all that stuff.
So you're not, you're not going in there thinking about
project methodologies and earn value.
You're going in there talking business language,
Correct?
Right. So Rebecca, let's come to you.
What does, what does that feel like
in the leadership team when someone comes in
and starts speaking project ease?
Oh, well, they, they just shut off immediately.
You can just see it. I mean,
just you lo you lose them in four seconds.
But to, you know, what you were saying, Frederick, is
we, there, there are those layers, right?
There absolutely are those layers
and leadership, their job is to set strategy
that can be driven down those layers.
That's their job. If they aren't doing that,
it is a real hardship for down below.
I will absolutely say that,
and I work on this all the time
to get leaders to be precise.
I spend so much time, I mean, you said it Stuart language,
they talk, talk, talk, talk, talk,
everybody's pontificating.
And I'm like, could you just slow down
and explain what you mean?
Because they are using the same words,
but I know they don't mean the same thing.
So getting to real language, not corporate speak,
real language that is clear and, and direct.
That is so hard, I gotta tell you, it is a real challenge.
So if the leaders are trying to do that, then
my point from down below is that we ask the questions.
And Mike, I agree with you, the questions should always be,
where are we headed with this?
What's the big win that you're looking for?
Get leaders, no matter what level they're at, right?
To articulate that. Now, I do understand, Frederick,
if you ask the guy right here, and he
or she says what they think it is
and it doesn't fit up here, you know, we are a bit stuck.
But if we're seeing that there's some sort of disconnect,
we can also ask about that, right?
So I feel like that we have
to keep asking the question about strategy, not about
capacity, not about, you know, the small stuff.
Ask the big questions.
And, and to that end, actually,
that's a really good place.
'cause we're, we're nearly at the top of the hour.
So what we're really talking about is, is building
that strong neck, right?
So it it's, it's strategic alignment, it's good governance,
and then it, there's something about this communication
and using business language.
So if you as a PMO leader
aren't thinking in business language,
you've got a problem, right?
Either you need to go and work on those skills
or maybe find another role that doesn't need those skills
Or bring in someone who can help you. That is also,
Oh, bring someone who Can help you. That
is huge, right? Because that's what I do all the time.
I come in percent, I help that person
to get to that language.
So, so the second, the second piece there is, is, um, uh,
it, it was exactly that, Rebecca, right?
So one of the things that we've touched on several times is
sometimes it's a good idea
to bring someone in from the outside.
There's a couple of people on this call who you could, you
who you could call, who are you gonna call Ghostbusters.
Um, but you know, Mike and
and Rebecca both do this kind of work.
Um, we've got a bunch of others on our website as well.
Uh, Fadi who's on here is one of our, uh, one
of our good friends as well.
Um, so you know, that's always something that's open to you.
Someone to act as a bridge, someone to be that door opener,
someone who can come in.
Um, I was speaking with one
of our consulting partners a little while ago,
and you know, they, they'd just come off stage
where they talked about this really nice gentle process
for getting executive buy-in and they came off stage
and I went, but that's not what you do.
They said, oh, no, no, I'm paid lots of money
'cause so I can come in and I can
just punch 'em right in the face.
Right. Um, so, so sometimes it's worth paying someone just
to come in and punch 'em in the
face and get their attention.
Um, so that's, that's an interesting technique.
And then there's other, the,
the final thing is about the common language and asking lots
and lots of questions and, um,
I can't remember whether it's next month or the month after.
We are planning to invite Rebecca back again and Fadi
and, uh, and I think a guy called Ben Chamberlain
to come along and have that conversation,
to have the conversation about
what are those big questions you need to be asking right?
To, to, to build understanding.
And just asking those
questions will open doors.
Not every door, not all the time,
but just asking the questions will change the perception of
what the PMO is for,
and it will start to open doors for you.
Well also too, I really hope we get to talk about
how do you know which question?
Because you can't ask a billion questions.
You've gotta really get to
what is the sweet spot of that question.
And so I I hope that we'll be able to talk about that too
Next time, Stuart.
Yeah, we'll have, we'll have some prep with Fadi
and we'll make sure we've got a good, good set of questions.
So, uh, so hopefully, um, hopefully
that's been useful for people.
Um, I, I want to just sort of thank you all for coming.
I want to thank, uh, the team for, for, uh, for coming along
and sharing their expertise.
Um, uh, I, I, I really, I mean the,
the introductions were very, very brief
and I really can't express enough
what a high powered team it is
that we've got on here this, this month.
So, you know, big thank you to the guys for turning up.
Really appreciate it.
Um, but, but what do you mean it's finished already? Yeah.
That, that's it. We're at the top of the hour.
Can you believe it? No.
So it's, it's a little bit like when you go to Fred's house
for dinner, right?
You get to the end and you just can't believe it.
Um, so, uh, so, so good. Thanks everybody.
Thank you everybody. And, uh, watch out for
that email from Pretty,
and if, uh, if you want to have a, a conversation and,
and start working out how to get your executives attention,
um, one of the things an email Pretty will send is our
little workshop that we do to help people get
that process started, uh, very often with one
of our partners to do that.
So if you've been affected by the topics of this,
of this article, do uh, do get in touch
and book yourself a session.
Awesome. Thank you everybody. Really appreciate it.
Watch out for the next webinar.
Uh, there's a demo webinar at the end of the month
and then next month we'll be doing another one of these.
So Awesome. Thank you everyone. Really appreciate it.