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Let's get started. So thank you for joining us today.

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The topic we are here to discuss is around the PMO and

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how we can make the PMO a value-led proposition, a partner at portfolio level.

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I'm here representing Transparent Choice.

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So my name's Dan Jewers, and I look after what we call customer success, which is

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effectively what we do with our software.

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Our software is a platform designed to support prioritization, decision making,

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very much with that kind of underlying goal of helping turn your portfolio into

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a value engine, a value-centric collection of projects that are designed to deliver

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your company's strategies. So be pleased, I'm not going to bang on too much about

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the software.

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But if there's a spike of interest at any point, just drop me a message, and we'll

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set something up offline.

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And I'm really pleased today to be able to welcome two extreme experienced PMO

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leaders in the form of Sam and Alexander.

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Sam, as I apologized before, I've almost certainly said your name wrong.

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So I'll let you introduce yourself properly.

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But both Sam and Alexander have got many years experience, both in terms

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of leading PMOs and providing consulting support to others to lead PMOs.

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So we're going to lean today on their experience.

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We're going to learn what they've learnt.

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So I think it's going to be a mixture of methodology, war stories, tricks, and

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tips. So with that in mind, let me introduce you to Sam first, who can

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tell you a little bit about his background, and yeah. Sam, over to you.

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Thank you, Dan. Yes, it's Sam. That's the correct pronunciation.

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I'm from Belgium, from north of Belgium, so my mother tongue is Dutch.

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That's where the IJ comes from. The last 10 years I've been

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a consultant in the PMO world. I've been a trainer.

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I'm an accredited trainer in the PRINCE2 suites, all the PRINCE2 products, from

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project to portfolio and the PMO level.

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And at the one end, I'm basically teaching, so methodology theory, and then the

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other foot I'm standing still in the mud, doing the actual work, setting up

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PMOs, restructuring, reenergizing PMOs, often with a portfolio focus,

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so bringing the organization from a project-focused organization to a portfolio

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level.

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Yeah, that's it.

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Brilliant. And Alexander?

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Perfect.

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I just fall into PMO. I think that's an interesting one.

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So I started my career with dark science. I was with Boston Consulting Group, BCG.

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More into M&A, actually, interestingly enough.

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So I was in mergers, acquisition, turnaround, and PMOs happened to be a big thing

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that time. And we know at that time in an M&A environment, you talk about value

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piece. And I was thinking, oh, there's a gap there maybe we can start focusing on

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value in PMO and change management. So I started working with different companies.

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I've done 13 PMOs in my career so far, set up enterprise portfolio management

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offices. Now I've joined forces with Laure Bernard, who some of you already know.

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We formed a company called Global Transformation Group, and we've been helping

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clients for the past few years. So that's me.

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Brilliant. Thank you very much. And as I just dropped in on the chat, as we go

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through today's discussion, it's relatively free form.

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So we're not going to give you 50 slides or anything like that.

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But do feel free to join in the participation.

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So just drop your notes into the chat, and I'll make sure that the guys are picking

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them up as we go through. So with that in mind, I think let's dive into it.

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So

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today's focus is around how we can get the organization to support that journey

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towards a value-led PMO. But before we dive into that

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transition, I think it'd be really useful for the group to share what that means

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because I keep seeing it all over LinkedIn, right? Value-led PMO. Value-led PMO.

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What does it actually mean to you? Start with you, Alex.

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Well, with me.

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For me, I think it's ... I've been on both sides where the PMO is sort of our

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status quo, looking at RAGs and understanding what the RAGs are telling you.

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The value-led PMO for me is moving into around what is the value looks like at the

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P&L level, profit and loss level. What is the EBITDA margin, NPVs?

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I'm sure you guys have come across IRR.

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It's those kind of things because end of the day, the bottom line, we need to

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understand how does it impact the business because that's why we do any change or

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that's why we do any projects. But then there is some positive impact we need to be

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looking at from value perspective, like the people side. Are we being productive?

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Are we from a customer service perspective, like NPS stuff.

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So the VMO, we call them value management offices or value-led PMO, is more about

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focusing on the outcomes rather than the outputs.

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And that's where the shift is

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from my opinion.

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I don't disagree, of course. The thing is that I've worked with quite a

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few of public sectors organizations.

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Your financial metrics are less of their interest, let's say, given that

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it's hard to quantify in monetary terms less people in jail or

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sick people being assisted living.

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So the benefit focus ... So I would turn it more into

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the

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less monetary concept. Focus on the benefits and moving indeed from these

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deliverables output focus to an outcome focus, basically

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speaking the language of the business, translating that project level language into

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something that leadership actually values.

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Because as I said, part of my world is in methodology.

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Very few leaders get excited about methodology.

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Very few leaders can be convinced with a process or with repeatability.

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So it's translating that, what does the methodology bring you?

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What does the repeatability bring you in your business terminology?

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How does this link to your KPIs at business level, at that organizational level?

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So that's I think the job of the PMO, moving from

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projects to business results.

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No, exactly. Totally. I think just to add to that point you mentioned is we call it

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operating common sense in contractors.

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So sometimes you don't have to follow everything by book because I need A, B, C, D,

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any process. I need to make sure everything is aligned to PMI or PRINCE.

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To your point, it's making sure this common sense exists.

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Every client is different. Every company is different.

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Every matrix is different, is what works for you.

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But the idea is all about, from my point of view, the way I focus on this is making

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sure we have lean governance, and to your point, and it's focusing on the outcomes.

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So your governance should be focusing on the outcomes rather than looking at

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deliverables to your point.

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Yeah. Lean governance is really- Again, given that I ...

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Again, I don't want to be the one blaming the public sector, but a

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public sector disease that I often see is to add more levels of

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governance and more control. So I've seen in one of my consultancy assignments, an

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organization that built an assurance team that controlled the project level,

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and then for some reason, they missed something probably somewhere, something got

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dropped, so they created a team that controlled the assurance team.

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So at some point you have ... Yeah, there are so many people creating overhead that

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the focus of the actual work gets lost.

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Yeah.

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I like that. Yeah, we often like to think about just enough governance is

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recognizing that no governance is probably the wrong solution.

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Too much governance is the wrong solution.

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And like many things in life, the middle way is often the best way forward.

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Yeah. You're spending somebody else's money, so you need to reassure these people

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that their money is spent in a proper way. Is it a shareholder or is it the public?

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Yeah.

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In both cases, you need to

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handle that money properly.

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So you touched on some interesting stuff there in terms of saying

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it's about moving beyond processes or at least reconciling those two to

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business language. So- This feels like it's a two-way conversation.

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It's about upskilling the people in the project community and also then engaging

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the people in the wider community.

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Suppose before we go into the wider community, we can focus on that transition into

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the project community. So I'm guessing we've got people of all sorts of levels of

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maturity understanding experience in the call.

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So for those folks, how do you do that?

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How do you bring others on that journey? What's your experience in that?

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What's helped me and what I've seen as what works is actually

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training.

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Training is a very low-level step or a very low investment

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to

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share a common

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understanding, and it also gets people somehow motivated.

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So typically, whether it's certification related or not, a

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training starts when I start talking about what is good practice in project

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portfolio management.

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Mm-hmm.

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It starts with people getting very negative.

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There's some kind of

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grievance

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process within the training itself as people say, "Ah, this doesn't work in our

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environment." But as you move along and you start translating theoretical

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concepts into what it actually practically could mean in their environment, people

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get actually quite excited and motivated to start

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doing or implement those things. So you build some coalition of the willing with a

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training. I think training is one of the key change management practices.

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Not so much the technical how do we do it training, but it's more a mindset change,

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getting people excited about, "We could do this as well."

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Yeah. I think we've got some feedback from Suzanne on the chat there, just joining

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us-

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Exactly

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... open, honest communication-

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100%

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... being important and finding genuine grievance, right?

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And looking for how this makes people's lives better.

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Yeah. Usually, down to your point, as Suzanne mentioned as well, for me, we look at

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three things. So we've done up in the PMO.

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There's usually skill, will or behaviors, and skills to Sami's point, making sure

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we have the right training in place.

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We need to make sure we have right communication to Suzanne's point in place, and

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we focus on root cause rather than the pain points.

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Because half the time people focus on is pain points.

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It doesn't solve the symptoms. It just helps you for the time being.

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But going back to something you mentioned, you're adding more people because now

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somebody else is showing your work, and you're bringing someone else on top of

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someone. So the idea is how do we fix the root cause? And that's the hardest part.

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And that goes down to making sure you understand a different level of your

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stakeholders, having those conversations with them, running like a 360 interview to

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understand what people actually need. What is the problem you're trying to fix?

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What are we trying to get at as a business?

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And then the will comes in to understand people's will is not there because they

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don't really understand why and what I'm doing and how does it benefit the

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business. So they don't see a point.

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And that's where your strategy to execution alignment comes in.

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So making sure that anything we do need to have some sort of either financial

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benefit or a business benefit, so people can understand the value from the work

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they're producing for the business.

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And the behaviors piece, that's always an interesting one.

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That comes in because people not been informed, people hasn't been involved part of

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that discussion or design of that process or design of that system.

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And that's where your change management piece kicks in.

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So that's why the point I was trying to make previously is doing the change with

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people rather than doing the change to them.

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So when you're doing any PMO implementation, it's working with the people to design

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the process. So you have more chance of implementing something which is designed

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with them as compared to sometimes people, I've seen a lot of big four company

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coming in and say, "Here's a template.

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Go and do this." Or you could get 10, 60 pages of PowerPoint slides to read

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through. And to be honest, I've been on that side, so I know how it feels like.

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So the idea is working on the processes and change with them, and that's where your

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Kaizen principle comes in. You're designing the process with the team and with the

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business. And by doing all those threes together will help remove that skill

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barrier, the behavior barrier, and the will of the people, which really helps.

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Because actually that case will change.

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People are behind the change and sponsoring it rather than pushing it away.

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Yeah. I absolutely second that. And so that's been my role as well the last few

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years, being a consultant in the setup of a PMO, for example.

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Setting up a PMO is a change initiative like any other change initiative.

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But being there, not doing it for them, being the advisor, of course, make my hands

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dirty, but not doing all the work, doing it together.

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Having seen indeed PMOs being rolled out by a big consultancy, staffed by

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the consultancy for a little while, it really creates ...

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And because their mandate, if you have an externally manned

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PMO, their mandate is typically to police. And that's exactly what we don't want.

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We want the PMO to be a support structure, and there will be some policing

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necessary. But the first thing that you should bring is support, is helping the

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project managers, the leaders to understand what's going on.

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Yeah.

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And if you create a big structure with the change that

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comes along with it, and you start alienating people against your PMO from the

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get-go, that doesn't work. So building it together indeed, it builds also this

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commitment of the people to that structure that you're building.

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Very good. So I'm hearing a lot of good stuff around the approach, and I'm sure

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we'll get onto also some good outcomes as well.

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But what would be really interesting, I think, just to try and bring this home for

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the group, do you have examples of the kind of services or the kind of activities

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that have worked? So I'm guessing when you go in, you'll have long lists, be it

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through root causes and the kind of diagnosis and your experience.

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But are there other typical kind of activities or low-hanging fruit that you tend

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to find progress this journey quickest with the quick wins?

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So I think the way I normally see it is, rather than looking at just one element,

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you have to look at them all together, because one is dependent on the other one.

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So I use something called POPIT. It's a bit of common terminology.

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It's people, organization, process, information, technology.

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And the part of that, you have to look at all those in detail in order to be able

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to combine the solution which works for the business.

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So for example, if you look at governance, people say, "Okay, I need a portfolio

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board. I need a project board. I need a program board." But why do we need it?

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The governance is there to control initiators.

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It's not there to talk about how was your weekend, or talk about the kids or

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family, which is good to talk about, but it's there to make a decision.

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It should be 45 minutes. You're making decisions, you're moving out.

241
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But why we need governance in the first place?

242
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So you have to think about the process.

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Because without the process, because process drive the governance, and the

244
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governance drive the insight, and the insights drive the system, you need to make

245
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that visibility on the solution. So the way I see it is making sure that we touch

246
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all of those, and which is making sure the process is there.

247
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Who's driving the process, the roles and accountability from the people point of

248
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view? Do I have an operating model

249
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of the organization designed to be able to operate this new process or this process

250
00:17:00.246 --> 00:17:04.176
in general? Do I have the right governance and controls to be able to measure

251
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success at the right time, at the right place, and to make decisions?

252
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Do I have the right data? Because half the time that's the biggest challenge, to

253
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have the right data and the visibility in order to be able to make those decisions.

254
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And then what underpins all of this is have I got the right technology?

255
00:17:19.026 --> 00:17:22.866
Because if you're working in Excel, there's always an issue when you've got 400

256
00:17:22.896 --> 00:17:24.517
projects. It's not going to work.

257
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But the foundation is having that process, the people, the organization information

258
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to get it right first. Technology for me is the last piece of the puzzle, which you

259
00:17:34.566 --> 00:17:39.816
bring in to amplify the change. But just to answer your point, Dan, I think that's

260
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how I normally approach. But with anything else, you're starting with diagnostic.

261
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You need to understand the root cause and pain points first, and then you apply

262
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this POPIT principle to help you deliver the change.

263
00:17:51.816 --> 00:17:57.456
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And the tooling part, that's the question I usually get first.

264
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What tool is going to fix this for us? Do we use Jira? Do we ...

265
00:18:01.866 --> 00:18:02.106
Again,

266
00:18:03.606 --> 00:18:05.916
I'm fully aligned with Alex there.

267
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I think Excel is a great tool to start with before you put anything in cement

268
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or before you put anything in stone.

269
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But my approach is typically, my diagnostic, I have a typical

270
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maturity model that I follow

271
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along a number of

272
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dimensions. After the first meeting, I can already predict where the score

273
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probably will be typically. Benefits management is very low.

274
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Financial management is typically the highest because that's where it all starts.

275
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We need to protect our money. But then how do you deal with risks?

276
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How do you deal with stakeholders and communication? How do you plan? How do you...

277
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And indeed, governance. That why question that you asked a few times, Alex, so

278
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challenging. Why am I here? And so you brought me in as a consultant, but why am I

279
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here? What are you trying to achieve? Being very clear about what the objective is.

280
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If I'm here just to standardize your process or even then, we need to have another

281
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session to discuss the underlying why.

282
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Okay.

283
00:19:16.386 --> 00:19:20.046
So that's how I typically approach it.

284
00:19:21.366 --> 00:19:24.456
So you mentioned benefits management, and obviously Alex has

285
00:19:25.746 --> 00:19:27.846
emphasized the importance of the P&L.

286
00:19:29.197 --> 00:19:32.766
If we sort of focus on that as a challenge area and an area of typical under

287
00:19:32.826 --> 00:19:33.396
maturity,

288
00:19:34.806 --> 00:19:39.336
what I hear in terms of why it's not done, I think partly there's the challenge.

289
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It's how do you

290
00:19:42.456 --> 00:19:48.216
get value, particularly if you have a non-commercial environment and articulate it

291
00:19:48.246 --> 00:19:52.926
in a way that people buy into. And the second would be possibly the time element of

292
00:19:53.226 --> 00:19:55.176
if project is here, benefits are here.

293
00:19:55.896 --> 00:20:00.906
Exactly. I think that's one of the main things, that accountability for benefits is

294
00:20:01.326 --> 00:20:07.026
easier to get away with because I will be promoted by the time these

295
00:20:07.056 --> 00:20:08.706
benefits should be realized.

296
00:20:09.966 --> 00:20:13.386
And to us, I get that question all the time saying we are a non-profit organization

297
00:20:13.447 --> 00:20:15.816
or we're a public organization. We don't track benefits.

298
00:20:16.176 --> 00:20:20.016
Our focus is about spend the money rather than track the money.

299
00:20:20.796 --> 00:20:25.236
But in those cases, it's all about you could track benefits.

300
00:20:25.326 --> 00:20:26.256
There are two ways,

301
00:20:28.086 --> 00:20:31.776
like I said, the way I see it is there's an outward benefits, inwards benefits.

302
00:20:32.736 --> 00:20:36.336
Outward benefits are things like I mentioned, financial KPIs or could be

303
00:20:36.396 --> 00:20:41.796
non-financial KPIs. We talked about people, productivity, people health surveys or

304
00:20:41.886 --> 00:20:46.536
NPS, Your Voice, the feedback from the people and the employee.

305
00:20:47.256 --> 00:20:49.926
But there is inward KPIs as well people don't really think about.

306
00:20:50.496 --> 00:20:53.976
From a PMO side, they should be tracking, okay, how long it takes me from an

307
00:20:54.066 --> 00:20:58.566
ideation to a project start, right now. To do a business case, to create a project.

308
00:20:59.406 --> 00:21:01.146
Should it be taking three months? Should it be taking a month?

309
00:21:01.236 --> 00:21:06.276
Or should it be taking two weeks? Do I have a sizing view on my initiatives or I'm

310
00:21:06.336 --> 00:21:09.937
just doing everything together? I'm applying all the governance to every single

311
00:21:09.966 --> 00:21:13.266
thing I'm doing, which is not really productive of doing it.

312
00:21:15.006 --> 00:21:18.786
And then how often am I reporting? Is my reporting is working effectively?

313
00:21:18.876 --> 00:21:23.437
So there's KPIs which exist. I call them inward KPIs, which a PMO should be

314
00:21:23.466 --> 00:21:26.466
checking themself. Am I delivering the value for the business?

315
00:21:27.006 --> 00:21:30.126
Am I increasing the speed of the flow? We call it flow management.

316
00:21:30.576 --> 00:21:31.956
How much flow is going through the business?

317
00:21:32.796 --> 00:21:32.916
Mm-hmm.

318
00:21:33.486 --> 00:21:35.886
Is it improving once you baseline it?

319
00:21:36.426 --> 00:21:40.206
Because every month, every quarter, every year, you should be looking at making it

320
00:21:40.266 --> 00:21:44.316
faster, the faster you can get. But now AI coming in plays down, I'm sure we all

321
00:21:44.376 --> 00:21:47.916
talk about AI, but the idea is where AI can take us.

322
00:21:48.006 --> 00:21:50.766
But if you don't have the foundation and the baseline, AI can tell you how bad you

323
00:21:50.826 --> 00:21:50.976
are.

324
00:21:53.166 --> 00:21:56.406
So hence the reason getting the foundations right, making sure you have a baseline,

325
00:21:56.466 --> 00:21:59.197
and measuring yourself internally, not just the external KPIs.

326
00:21:59.256 --> 00:22:02.916
They are really good for the business, but you need to create your own KPIs within

327
00:22:02.947 --> 00:22:04.566
the PMO when you're delivering those change.

328
00:22:05.586 --> 00:22:11.496
Yes. And taking it one step back or a bit higher, a benefit

329
00:22:11.706 --> 00:22:15.516
is an improvement, is the typical definition of measurable improvement.

330
00:22:15.966 --> 00:22:19.986
Basically, your benefits should be a translation of your strategy.

331
00:22:20.166 --> 00:22:21.546
Every organization has a strategy.

332
00:22:21.786 --> 00:22:25.386
Whether you're a commercial or a nonprofit, you have a strategy.

333
00:22:26.616 --> 00:22:30.486
You will be judged on certain results as an organization.

334
00:22:30.816 --> 00:22:36.546
If you're a hospital, it's about how many patients you treat, how often, how

335
00:22:36.576 --> 00:22:41.556
quickly you treat patients. So there will be KPIs at the organization level that

336
00:22:41.676 --> 00:22:46.926
somehow reflect which are proxy measurements for strategy delivery.

337
00:22:48.156 --> 00:22:53.256
The benefits of your initiatives should indeed ideally be linked to those KPIs

338
00:22:53.286 --> 00:22:59.136
because why are you changing something in the business if it doesn't add value to

339
00:22:59.166 --> 00:23:01.447
your strategy? And the same goes indeed for the PMO.

340
00:23:01.506 --> 00:23:07.056
The PMO should have internal measurement points, KPIs that they focus on because

341
00:23:07.086 --> 00:23:10.896
they want to improve something. They want to improve decision making, they want to

342
00:23:10.956 --> 00:23:14.856
improve delivery, and those things, what is important should be measured.

343
00:23:14.916 --> 00:23:20.646
And there is always, hopefully, a cascade or a link between those PMO KPIs to the

344
00:23:20.856 --> 00:23:25.746
organizational KPIs that somehow measure value delivery at strategy level.

345
00:23:26.856 --> 00:23:30.306
Very good. I feel we've got two very interesting strands here, the internal and the

346
00:23:30.366 --> 00:23:35.856
external. I think on the external one, the alignment to strategy, I'll make a rare

347
00:23:35.886 --> 00:23:40.687
intervention and join in here. But this is something that we're very passionate

348
00:23:40.746 --> 00:23:45.816
about at Transparent Choice in terms of how you can build that bridge that connects

349
00:23:45.876 --> 00:23:51.036
a strategy to, if you like, a project selection process due to

350
00:23:51.066 --> 00:23:53.856
prioritization. Because ultimately,

351
00:23:55.416 --> 00:23:59.197
one would hope that almost every project that's undertaken is important to someone,

352
00:23:59.376 --> 00:24:00.306
somewhere, somehow.

353
00:24:02.346 --> 00:24:06.576
If that's not the case, you've really got bigger problems than value led PMO.

354
00:24:08.706 --> 00:24:14.466
But it's about understanding how you can balance the limited resources that you

355
00:24:14.496 --> 00:24:16.986
have as an organization with

356
00:24:19.056 --> 00:24:23.766
those goals. Sandy, you were talking about your organization's trying to achieve

357
00:24:23.826 --> 00:24:28.386
and recognizing that, put it bluntly, if you try and do a bit of everything and

358
00:24:28.447 --> 00:24:29.526
keep everyone happy-

359
00:24:29.976 --> 00:24:30.096
Yeah

360
00:24:30.516 --> 00:24:33.096
... then you are diluting your capability.

361
00:24:33.126 --> 00:24:38.886
And I think every PMO and every organization has limited capacity, and you're

362
00:24:38.916 --> 00:24:44.856
diluting it away from those key objectives, be that the hospital KPIs or

363
00:24:44.885 --> 00:24:46.056
the commercial KPIs.

364
00:24:47.766 --> 00:24:49.566
So yeah, I think that's an excellent point.

365
00:24:50.886 --> 00:24:51.697
But perhaps we could also-

366
00:24:51.756 --> 00:24:53.376
If I can just too take it further.

367
00:24:53.406 --> 00:24:53.437
Mm-hmm.

368
00:24:53.437 --> 00:24:57.876
I think people, from my opinion, see prioritization as one bucket, which is, oh, we

369
00:24:57.876 --> 00:25:03.156
need to prioritize things. Prioritization is not just a challenge on its own, but

370
00:25:03.216 --> 00:25:06.396
it's a big task because there are two different strands of prioritization.

371
00:25:07.176 --> 00:25:09.426
You're prioritizing investment, where you look at different things.

372
00:25:09.937 --> 00:25:12.187
When you're prioritizing resources, you're looking at different things.

373
00:25:13.026 --> 00:25:16.536
So what I'd like to make people understand is when you're prioritizing, you have to

374
00:25:16.566 --> 00:25:17.796
prioritize in two different ways.

375
00:25:18.126 --> 00:25:19.476
It all comes together in one plan-

376
00:25:19.926 --> 00:25:19.956
Mm-hmm

377
00:25:19.956 --> 00:25:21.456
... but make sure you're looking at two different angle.

378
00:25:21.516 --> 00:25:27.426
Investment is, like you said, KPIs, investment, ROIs, NPVs, strategic alignment

379
00:25:27.486 --> 00:25:30.006
to standpoint, making sure it's aligned to each of those initiatives.

380
00:25:30.786 --> 00:25:34.146
But then you have prioritization on your capacity, which is more about have you got

381
00:25:34.176 --> 00:25:39.546
the skills in-house? Can we actually deliver this by ourself with the amount of

382
00:25:39.576 --> 00:25:43.026
time it's going to take? And does the technology even available in the market for

383
00:25:43.056 --> 00:25:45.786
us to go and buy this or do we have to create it ourself?

384
00:25:46.536 --> 00:25:48.696
So it's making sure that there's no confusion.

385
00:25:48.726 --> 00:25:50.796
There are two different things you're looking at from prioritization.

386
00:25:51.396 --> 00:25:56.616
Both of them plays a good role in the cycle, but it's how you do it and the

387
00:25:56.646 --> 00:25:57.486
sequence of doing it.

388
00:25:58.656 --> 00:26:01.386
So here's a question for you then on that front, for both of you.

389
00:26:02.016 --> 00:26:06.486
If there's a financial element, presumably heavily influenced by finance and

390
00:26:08.826 --> 00:26:10.567
an operational element which is-

391
00:26:10.716 --> 00:26:10.806
Yeah

392
00:26:10.806 --> 00:26:15.187
... basically the PMO should be more prominent, how do they reconcile with each

393
00:26:15.246 --> 00:26:19.026
other? Because presumably they're making the same decision of whether we should do

394
00:26:19.086 --> 00:26:22.416
that work now or not do that work or do that work later.

395
00:26:23.046 --> 00:26:27.937
And what experience have you got of trying to bring that decision process together

396
00:26:27.996 --> 00:26:32.016
so we don't end up with, if you like, trying to ride two horses at the same time?

397
00:26:32.677 --> 00:26:36.846
I think it's a sequence. So initially, when I started my career, I used to do them

398
00:26:36.877 --> 00:26:39.846
together, and I know Stuart and I talked about this multiple times.

399
00:26:40.866 --> 00:26:45.606
But it's a sequence because if you're trying to pick a battle, you pick a battle in

400
00:26:45.666 --> 00:26:47.377
a sequence, so you have high chance of winning it.

401
00:26:48.636 --> 00:26:53.346
The first battle is getting the OKRs, the KPIs, the financial matrix, the finance

402
00:26:53.406 --> 00:26:56.466
agreed. What can we actually afford and what can we-

403
00:26:56.766 --> 00:26:56.796
Yeah

404
00:26:56.796 --> 00:26:58.177
... from a strategy point of view, what should we be delivering?

405
00:26:58.416 --> 00:27:00.006
So you have one problem out of the way.

406
00:27:00.666 --> 00:27:02.646
Once you've done that, then you take the next level.

407
00:27:02.916 --> 00:27:06.396
Because if you think about this as a filter, you're going from bigger list to a

408
00:27:06.457 --> 00:27:10.326
smaller list. And then when you apply your deliverability piece, the next

409
00:27:10.386 --> 00:27:12.576
operational list, it should be going down this way.

410
00:27:12.636 --> 00:27:12.817
Mm-hmm.

411
00:27:14.196 --> 00:27:17.586
So it's not one or the other. I think it's one after the other.

412
00:27:18.576 --> 00:27:18.937
Sequential, yeah.

413
00:27:18.996 --> 00:27:23.016
And the outcome is your one prioritized list which you can deliver.

414
00:27:24.858 --> 00:27:25.248
Very good

415
00:27:25.669 --> 00:27:30.948
... because you need to know what the strategy is and how to translate the

416
00:27:31.008 --> 00:27:36.558
strategy. You need to know what is affordable, how much money you have basically

417
00:27:36.649 --> 00:27:41.238
available to invest, and you need to know what somehow the risk appetite of your

418
00:27:41.268 --> 00:27:47.089
organization is to be able to come up with, because you might have what

419
00:27:47.149 --> 00:27:51.649
looks like low-hanging fruit, but actually be very risky on other aspects.

420
00:27:51.978 --> 00:27:57.438
So I think those three are prerequisites before you can basically model and somehow

421
00:27:57.858 --> 00:27:58.399
create a

422
00:28:00.139 --> 00:28:01.848
standardized way of evaluating.

423
00:28:02.628 --> 00:28:04.098
Exactly. Exactly the point. Yeah.

424
00:28:05.029 --> 00:28:09.978
Because just to add to that point as well, the different way prioritization works,

425
00:28:10.008 --> 00:28:14.389
and Susan and I talked about AHV, which from my point of view, is a really good way

426
00:28:14.419 --> 00:28:17.928
of doing prioritization. But then within that, you need to create some sort of a

427
00:28:18.889 --> 00:28:22.518
lens how you look at your investment. So it's like a run, grow, transform.

428
00:28:22.578 --> 00:28:27.198
That's how I do it personally, because people compare apples with bananas rather

429
00:28:27.228 --> 00:28:30.649
than apples to apples, and that's the heart of the battle, basically, when you're

430
00:28:30.678 --> 00:28:34.368
looking at those investments. So it's making sure you compare the right things with

431
00:28:34.428 --> 00:28:39.108
the right stuff. As an example, we all talk about keeping the lights on, or we call

432
00:28:39.139 --> 00:28:39.318
them

433
00:28:40.578 --> 00:28:43.788
mandatory initiatives we have to do in our business because they're compliance

434
00:28:43.848 --> 00:28:44.328
related.

435
00:28:45.529 --> 00:28:48.678
But why is that compliance? What does a risk exposure looks like?

436
00:28:49.128 --> 00:28:52.998
When does it become an issue? And how long can we stay with the system or the new

437
00:28:53.328 --> 00:28:55.608
before it becomes an issue? So you have to compare them differently.

438
00:28:55.848 --> 00:28:57.288
You can't compare everything together.

439
00:28:58.068 --> 00:29:01.279
Otherwise, all your innovative stuff are never going to get any light.

440
00:29:01.457 --> 00:29:02.988
They're always going to be in the back of the bucket.

441
00:29:03.618 --> 00:29:04.669
So you're not going to be innovating.

442
00:29:04.728 --> 00:29:06.438
You're always going to be just keeping lights on.

443
00:29:07.698 --> 00:29:09.828
Or you have the opposite, where only the

444
00:29:11.478 --> 00:29:14.268
shiny new things get funded, and then some-

445
00:29:14.568 --> 00:29:14.839
Yeah

446
00:29:14.868 --> 00:29:20.149
... people need to squeeze in the infrastructure bit into a project.

447
00:29:20.808 --> 00:29:20.928
So

448
00:29:22.188 --> 00:29:25.848
an infrastructure that everybody will benefit from, but here the business case is

449
00:29:25.878 --> 00:29:29.598
good enough to justify to buy the infrastructure for everybody else, which is, of

450
00:29:29.658 --> 00:29:30.048
course not

451
00:29:31.518 --> 00:29:32.238
the right way to do it.

452
00:29:32.688 --> 00:29:35.688
And I think, yeah, that probably comes back down to the culture of the

453
00:29:35.748 --> 00:29:40.368
organization, whether it's a growth organization or potentially quite a

454
00:29:40.399 --> 00:29:43.818
risk-averse. So, it's a fascinating thread.

455
00:29:45.529 --> 00:29:50.419
Maybe just to close it off, you guys could provide some, I guess,

456
00:29:51.048 --> 00:29:54.498
examples and give us a sense of how you've done this, because I think that the idea

457
00:29:54.558 --> 00:30:00.169
of having these kind of distinct portfolios makes total sense intellectually.

458
00:30:01.608 --> 00:30:03.558
But to your point, every organization's different.

459
00:30:03.618 --> 00:30:08.478
How have you made it work in reality when you've hit an organization with one big

460
00:30:08.538 --> 00:30:09.318
bucket of projects?

461
00:30:11.298 --> 00:30:11.419
It's-

462
00:30:11.478 --> 00:30:12.438
Alex, do you want to go first?

463
00:30:12.858 --> 00:30:13.038
Yeah.

464
00:30:14.448 --> 00:30:19.008
I typically look at what are the dependencies between the different initiatives.

465
00:30:19.578 --> 00:30:20.658
So, for example,

466
00:30:22.728 --> 00:30:27.768
in one organization, I saw a lot of unwanted civil works and building stuff and

467
00:30:27.798 --> 00:30:29.988
building new infrastructure and

468
00:30:31.218 --> 00:30:35.178
technology. And those two were rather unrelated, let's say.

469
00:30:35.238 --> 00:30:39.498
Of course, you need to put some IT stuff in the building, but that's off the shelf.

470
00:30:40.368 --> 00:30:41.448
So that would be

471
00:30:43.248 --> 00:30:47.058
different portfolios as such. They are standing apart.

472
00:30:47.298 --> 00:30:50.748
You can apply different life cycles to these type of projects.

473
00:30:50.779 --> 00:30:56.718
So I don't only look at the leadership and on decision making, I also look

474
00:30:56.748 --> 00:31:00.798
at how can we make life easier for the people doing the actual work, project

475
00:31:00.828 --> 00:31:05.628
managers and their teams. But that first split would be obvious.

476
00:31:05.688 --> 00:31:11.328
But then, yeah, within the whole IT technology, should we separate the engineering

477
00:31:11.358 --> 00:31:13.488
from the IT part or not? I

478
00:31:17.598 --> 00:31:21.018
want to look at dependencies specifically about resource dependency.

479
00:31:21.078 --> 00:31:25.068
That's in resource people. Let's not call people resources.

480
00:31:26.149 --> 00:31:31.998
People dependencies. So if the same people need to work on both portfolio one and

481
00:31:32.029 --> 00:31:35.268
portfolio two, then they are not really separate portfolios because

482
00:31:36.978 --> 00:31:42.798
you cannot prioritize them individually or separately if there

483
00:31:42.828 --> 00:31:48.348
are so many overlaps. So I think I look at what type of projects, what is the

484
00:31:48.738 --> 00:31:53.568
subject matter or the topics that these projects work on and who is working on

485
00:31:53.628 --> 00:31:59.478
them, and how can we cleanly or as clean as possible, separate them to

486
00:31:59.538 --> 00:32:03.708
manage them as locally as possible while still keeping control as globally as

487
00:32:03.768 --> 00:32:04.158
possible.

488
00:32:06.139 --> 00:32:06.589
Perfect.

489
00:32:08.298 --> 00:32:11.208
I'll use a good example. So let me see if I can match that example.

490
00:32:12.288 --> 00:32:12.468
So,

491
00:32:13.878 --> 00:32:16.728
I'll use the, I think just to be honest, I can't name the company.

492
00:32:16.848 --> 00:32:21.438
It was an insurance company I was working in the UK with, and I started with a big

493
00:32:21.468 --> 00:32:26.238
list of all the initiatives, but no clear direction why, what, and how we're going

494
00:32:26.268 --> 00:32:26.748
to deliver them.

495
00:32:28.068 --> 00:32:30.438
So the first protocol for me was to understand

496
00:32:32.149 --> 00:32:34.818
what is the focus of the business look like. Is it to grow the business?

497
00:32:35.238 --> 00:32:37.548
Is it a payback? We need to get our money quickly.

498
00:32:38.538 --> 00:32:41.748
Is it to make sure we're creating a sustainable business?

499
00:32:42.139 --> 00:32:43.518
So it's understanding what is the focus.

500
00:32:43.578 --> 00:32:46.818
Why are we getting up in the morning to deliver these changes?

501
00:32:47.029 --> 00:32:51.048
What key factors looks like? And they usually sometimes you get from strategy.

502
00:32:51.108 --> 00:32:53.928
In this case, we didn't have a strategy, which doesn't really help.

503
00:32:54.589 --> 00:32:58.279
So, this is going back to Suzanne, your point is having those

504
00:32:59.658 --> 00:33:04.458
conversation with those people at different levels to understand why and what we're

505
00:33:04.488 --> 00:33:06.618
doing for the business, what are we trying to achieve.

506
00:33:07.818 --> 00:33:12.768
That gives you the first filter on that list to say, "Okay, how they stack against

507
00:33:12.798 --> 00:33:16.998
those priorities of the business at a really high level." The second thing I

508
00:33:17.029 --> 00:33:19.158
normally go after, I call them zombie projects.

509
00:33:19.578 --> 00:33:23.928
It sounds really weird name, but it's projects which are there just happening

510
00:33:23.988 --> 00:33:27.919
somewhere. They appear on the list, and nobody knows about them.

511
00:33:27.948 --> 00:33:29.928
You can't talk about them, otherwise you'll die.

512
00:33:31.158 --> 00:33:32.478
But people are booking time to them.

513
00:33:32.748 --> 00:33:36.318
So those are the projects I normally go after to start, again, the next level of

514
00:33:36.348 --> 00:33:39.708
filter to kill them, because they're not driving value.

515
00:33:40.878 --> 00:33:44.688
And then the third principle is going into that bucket point I mentioned earlier,

516
00:33:44.779 --> 00:33:48.618
having a clear distinction between what are we running, growing, and transforming

517
00:33:48.678 --> 00:33:51.978
the business, and seeing the balance. Are we investing in the right places?

518
00:33:52.639 --> 00:33:55.728
You should have the right balance between each of those buckets.

519
00:33:56.988 --> 00:34:00.618
Run has to be big, but at the same time, you need to be investing in grow and

520
00:34:00.649 --> 00:34:01.968
transform at the same time.

521
00:34:03.678 --> 00:34:07.848
And then the fourth filter, which is the AHV piece, which comes in, which is the

522
00:34:07.908 --> 00:34:11.569
ranking piece, the calibration piece with the team.

523
00:34:12.558 --> 00:34:16.008
But in order to get to the calibration, I think you do see who need to be part of

524
00:34:16.038 --> 00:34:19.069
that session. And who people need to understand this.

525
00:34:19.069 --> 00:34:21.018
It's a few housekeeping exercise I normally do.

526
00:34:21.558 --> 00:34:25.098
What this project means or change versus keeping the lights on.

527
00:34:25.428 --> 00:34:28.788
People really get confused, because you meet two types of people.

528
00:34:28.878 --> 00:34:30.589
Either they're confused or they do it on purpose.

529
00:34:32.358 --> 00:34:36.078
To hide the projects. So making sure the definition is clear, so you're bringing

530
00:34:36.138 --> 00:34:40.578
everyone on the same level of understanding what project means and what BAU means.

531
00:34:41.478 --> 00:34:46.158
And then started to then putting some alignment to value at the really high level.

532
00:34:46.488 --> 00:34:48.618
What are we delivering in those Eastern initiatives?

533
00:34:49.218 --> 00:34:53.718
Start doing the ranking and working with finance to start creating what is the

534
00:34:53.748 --> 00:34:55.848
affordability line look. So we call them red line.

535
00:34:56.298 --> 00:34:59.658
What's above the line, what's below the line, so we can understand what should we

536
00:34:59.688 --> 00:35:00.678
prioritizing first.

537
00:35:01.368 --> 00:35:01.968
And it's not just-

538
00:35:02.058 --> 00:35:04.938
Calibration doesn't mean that you're getting rid of everything you have in the

539
00:35:04.998 --> 00:35:09.378
list. The idea is that you will bring those initiatives in, but it's just not the

540
00:35:09.408 --> 00:35:10.188
right time for them.

541
00:35:11.449 --> 00:35:14.988
And when the time comes in, you bring them in, and that's the hardest job of being

542
00:35:15.048 --> 00:35:18.768
a PMO, is you need to keep an eye on both sides of that list, the stuff you're

543
00:35:18.768 --> 00:35:23.178
delivering, but the stuff you already have in your backlog, I call them, from a job

544
00:35:23.238 --> 00:35:23.748
point of view.

545
00:35:24.288 --> 00:35:29.449
Now, we've been joined by Stuart, who is our CEO here at Transparent Choice.

546
00:35:29.898 --> 00:35:33.738
So Stuart, you've probably been listening very quietly and intently.

547
00:35:35.418 --> 00:35:38.449
This might be a good point just to bring you in, and then I've got a great question

548
00:35:38.508 --> 00:35:41.748
from Guy, which I'm going to go to on the chat.

549
00:35:42.348 --> 00:35:45.228
Awesome, thanks. So just a really quick thing on this idea of buckets.

550
00:35:45.918 --> 00:35:50.328
So I love what you said, Sten, and obviously, Alex, we've talked about this stuff,

551
00:35:50.418 --> 00:35:52.548
so I don't think I'm going to contradict anything.

552
00:35:53.088 --> 00:35:57.678
But when you look at some of the research into this stuff, there are two or three

553
00:35:57.738 --> 00:36:03.618
big ways, normal ways, that people will break up their big portfolio into

554
00:36:03.678 --> 00:36:08.598
smaller chunks. So one of them is, it's kind of The Henley School, where

555
00:36:08.658 --> 00:36:13.608
you have run the business, grow the business, transform the business, right?

556
00:36:13.699 --> 00:36:18.318
So three tiers. So one is just we're going to keep operations, keep the lights on.

557
00:36:18.738 --> 00:36:21.858
This is all your, "I just need to upgrade my CRM system.

558
00:36:21.949 --> 00:36:27.018
I need to make sure our cybersecurity is in good shape." It's all that kind of

559
00:36:27.078 --> 00:36:28.158
stuff, the operational things.

560
00:36:29.556 --> 00:36:32.706
That's to run the business. Grow the business is exactly what it says, right?

561
00:36:32.797 --> 00:36:36.246
So we've got some KPIs, growth KPIs, cost-cutting KPIs.

562
00:36:36.726 --> 00:36:39.876
We want to enter the US market, those kind of things.

563
00:36:40.416 --> 00:36:43.416
So that lot goes into one bucket. And then transform the business.

564
00:36:43.446 --> 00:36:48.036
This is the risky stuff that we're going to shoot for the moon and maybe we'll hit

565
00:36:48.067 --> 00:36:53.976
the clouds. And those three buckets have got very different risk profiles

566
00:36:54.126 --> 00:36:59.586
associated with them and a very different level of ROI that you're expecting from

567
00:36:59.646 --> 00:37:03.726
them. So they're there to achieve different things, so you need different criteria

568
00:37:04.146 --> 00:37:08.286
to figure out which is which. Another way of thinking about it is, Stijn, the way

569
00:37:08.346 --> 00:37:11.317
that you did where you started with what are the

570
00:37:12.756 --> 00:37:16.326
dependencies, so it's the people, the teams, things like that. That's great.

571
00:37:16.927 --> 00:37:22.626
And then the third way is by size. So Alex, you did one a few months ago where

572
00:37:23.106 --> 00:37:28.836
you had two or three tiers, I forget what it was, but there were three pipelines-

573
00:37:28.896 --> 00:37:28.986
Yeah

574
00:37:29.196 --> 00:37:31.236
... for the three different tiers by size.

575
00:37:31.746 --> 00:37:35.677
And that was in an organization that was just very financially minded, so it was,

576
00:37:36.006 --> 00:37:40.567
is it less than 100,000, less than quarter of a million, over quarter of a million

577
00:37:40.596 --> 00:37:44.376
or something like that. But the key is, no matter how you break it up,

578
00:37:45.756 --> 00:37:49.116
the ranking you were talking about, Alex, is really cool because once you've got

579
00:37:49.177 --> 00:37:54.726
that scoring, actually, once you've quantified the contribution of your

580
00:37:54.786 --> 00:37:59.556
projects to the goals within each portfolio, we can then start to ask the question,

581
00:38:00.096 --> 00:38:05.226
how much resource and money should we allocate to each portfolio?

582
00:38:06.006 --> 00:38:08.826
And lots of organizations forget that step.

583
00:38:09.276 --> 00:38:14.376
So they go to all the trouble of prioritizing stuff within those buckets, but they

584
00:38:14.436 --> 00:38:18.396
forget the fact that they can actually move people and money between buckets.

585
00:38:19.026 --> 00:38:19.506
Yeah.

586
00:38:19.836 --> 00:38:24.336
And now of course, people aren't always fungible, but money's pretty fungible.

587
00:38:26.797 --> 00:38:31.236
And so you can actually move people and money between buckets to optimize return on

588
00:38:31.266 --> 00:38:35.406
investment. So there we go. I promised Dan I wasn't going to come in and take over,

589
00:38:35.466 --> 00:38:37.927
so I'm going to shut up again now and let you guys talk.

590
00:38:38.616 --> 00:38:42.786
Well, we had a good question from Guy, which I'd like to bring up,

591
00:38:44.076 --> 00:38:48.606
which said, he was just asking before when we were talking saying, are PMOs are

592
00:38:48.636 --> 00:38:52.206
meant to be supporting supply management or project managers?

593
00:38:52.596 --> 00:38:55.446
I think I know the answer you might give me on this one, but I'd like to hear your

594
00:38:55.476 --> 00:39:00.876
perspective on it. So PMOs, are they there looking up into the C-suite, or are they

595
00:39:00.966 --> 00:39:03.906
there to support their colleagues in the project community?

596
00:39:05.556 --> 00:39:07.927
Who's going first? Stijn, do you want to? Oh, do you want me to?

597
00:39:08.436 --> 00:39:09.817
Go on, Stijn. You go first.

598
00:39:09.936 --> 00:39:10.476
You go first.

599
00:39:10.806 --> 00:39:11.406
Okay. Yeah,

600
00:39:13.056 --> 00:39:13.536
both.

601
00:39:16.177 --> 00:39:20.856
A difficult answer. It depends. That's the typical consultancy answer.

602
00:39:20.946 --> 00:39:24.576
It depends what is the problem you're trying to solve with your PMO.

603
00:39:25.476 --> 00:39:27.756
But both are your key stakeholders.

604
00:39:27.966 --> 00:39:33.006
Both, they are two different stakeholder groups with different needs from your PMO.

605
00:39:33.606 --> 00:39:37.596
Your PMO provides services to both the leadership and the project community.

606
00:39:39.817 --> 00:39:41.885
Who should be getting more attention?

607
00:39:42.876 --> 00:39:46.206
That's the question that depends on why you're having the PMO.

608
00:39:47.946 --> 00:39:53.226
But I think, so maybe a little bridge between the discussion about prioritization

609
00:39:53.256 --> 00:39:58.356
and helping project managers. Two things can be true at the same time.

610
00:39:59.916 --> 00:40:01.326
If you're going to prioritize,

611
00:40:02.646 --> 00:40:07.386
things that I've seen. At one organization I saw a prioritized list of projects,

612
00:40:07.536 --> 00:40:12.246
and there were 800 projects in the list, prioritized from 1 to 800. Good.

613
00:40:12.606 --> 00:40:15.486
But they were still executed all of them at the same time.

614
00:40:15.666 --> 00:40:16.896
They were just priority set.

615
00:40:18.666 --> 00:40:22.026
Recently I talked to an organization, they had now the top 240.

616
00:40:24.576 --> 00:40:28.896
You can say it's less of a priority, but we start it anyway, then you keep adding

617
00:40:28.927 --> 00:40:32.136
paper to the printer to make it print faster, which will not work.

618
00:40:33.336 --> 00:40:38.106
So one of the key things in portfolio prioritization is also saying that you're not

619
00:40:38.166 --> 00:40:39.547
going to do certain things. It

620
00:40:41.016 --> 00:40:45.216
doesn't make sense to have everything ongoing and still having priorities.

621
00:40:45.276 --> 00:40:49.896
Okay, today I'm working on the higher priority things, so why is this helping the

622
00:40:49.927 --> 00:40:54.156
project managers as well? At least it reduces some frustration because I have been

623
00:40:54.186 --> 00:40:58.567
a program manager where at some point there was nobody left in the program.

624
00:40:58.896 --> 00:40:59.766
I was on my own.

625
00:41:01.026 --> 00:41:03.876
I can do a lot, but I cannot do everything.

626
00:41:04.506 --> 00:41:08.466
So before we go to Alex, I want to go into this because this is great.

627
00:41:08.526 --> 00:41:14.136
So how does an organization get to a point where it has 800 projects prioritized?

628
00:41:14.586 --> 00:41:20.196
Is this poor management? Is it poor

629
00:41:20.226 --> 00:41:25.866
communication? Is it wishful thinking? What drives this outcome?

630
00:41:27.786 --> 00:41:29.916
There I need to hypothesize. I don't know.

631
00:41:30.156 --> 00:41:30.246
I

632
00:41:31.806 --> 00:41:33.126
cannot say this is poor management.

633
00:41:33.576 --> 00:41:37.146
These people are probably paid a lot more than I am.

634
00:41:37.236 --> 00:41:37.356
So,

635
00:41:39.846 --> 00:41:45.606
yeah, it just evolves in that way. So somebody comes up with a good idea because

636
00:41:45.756 --> 00:41:48.756
they start probably with top 12. That's how we always start.

637
00:41:48.786 --> 00:41:52.116
We have top 12, and then one more and one more, and it's a slippery slope, and at

638
00:41:52.146 --> 00:41:53.496
some point you have a top 800.

639
00:41:54.036 --> 00:41:54.336
Hmm.

640
00:41:55.716 --> 00:41:55.746
I

641
00:41:57.067 --> 00:41:59.406
think there is management direction.

642
00:41:59.736 --> 00:42:01.896
There's direction guidance to go in a certain way.

643
00:42:02.256 --> 00:42:06.846
We prioritize the top 10, and then there's an exception, and then management is

644
00:42:06.906 --> 00:42:12.786
less involved because they think you work with that top 10, and then somehow, in

645
00:42:12.846 --> 00:42:18.006
the background, we see this process getting out of hand. That's a hypothesis.

646
00:42:18.096 --> 00:42:19.386
I didn't do one.

647
00:42:19.416 --> 00:42:23.256
No, it's just always fascinating how these things come to pass, because

648
00:42:23.346 --> 00:42:25.506
intellectually it feels so obvious.

649
00:42:25.986 --> 00:42:26.136
Yeah.

650
00:42:26.136 --> 00:42:27.516
Yet the reality is different.

651
00:42:28.206 --> 00:42:31.956
I think I've seen that before. I think it's normally the two factors is willingness

652
00:42:32.016 --> 00:42:32.256
to,

653
00:42:33.456 --> 00:42:37.476
we call them committees. That's usually a factor which drives it, because people

654
00:42:37.506 --> 00:42:40.776
have all these committees, everyone have opinions, and nothing comes out of it.

655
00:42:41.317 --> 00:42:44.106
That's normally my experience, that list getting bigger.

656
00:42:44.166 --> 00:42:48.306
And the other one is nobody have confidence to say no.

657
00:42:49.177 --> 00:42:52.236
Everyone's looking at each other saying, "Who's going to say no? Okay. Is it you?

658
00:42:52.326 --> 00:42:54.817
Is it you?" And it goes through this committee and nobody make a decision.

659
00:42:55.625 --> 00:42:57.785
So everyone are set to you have to say yes.

660
00:42:57.996 --> 00:43:00.726
So when you start saying yes to everything, then you come up with this big list,

661
00:43:00.966 --> 00:43:02.526
which you've been saying yes for the last three years.

662
00:43:04.446 --> 00:43:05.136
So yeah.

663
00:43:05.706 --> 00:43:11.616
Very good. Now we talked, I think in the initial outset and as the

664
00:43:11.677 --> 00:43:16.416
topic today about how we can bring leadership on this journey as the focus.

665
00:43:16.476 --> 00:43:22.116
So maybe we can zoom in on that. So you're in an organization, you've discovered

666
00:43:22.356 --> 00:43:27.636
800 projects, whole bunch of dumpster fires in agnostics.

667
00:43:28.746 --> 00:43:33.516
How do you go about turning the situation where you can clearly see what's a

668
00:43:33.576 --> 00:43:38.317
problem? You've probably got a very good experience base view on what the solution

669
00:43:38.406 --> 00:43:38.586
is,

670
00:43:39.936 --> 00:43:42.966
but you need to bring leadership on the journey.

671
00:43:44.047 --> 00:43:48.156
How do you achieve that, and how can folks listening to us today learn from that?

672
00:43:49.356 --> 00:43:54.726
And if I can modify the question a little bit, does leadership team even understand

673
00:43:54.756 --> 00:43:56.346
that the dumpster's on fire?

674
00:43:59.076 --> 00:44:04.416
Yes. I think indeed showing the consequence of

675
00:44:04.836 --> 00:44:08.196
this. Who's getting hurt? And probably everybody's getting hurt.

676
00:44:08.376 --> 00:44:12.156
So going back to what is the pain that this creates?

677
00:44:13.386 --> 00:44:18.006
My experience is that you can't really kill any projects

678
00:44:20.526 --> 00:44:21.966
just by decree.

679
00:44:23.346 --> 00:44:24.576
You can't say, "Let's kill this."

680
00:44:26.317 --> 00:44:30.817
Somebody will get offended. Somebody's baby is

681
00:44:30.876 --> 00:44:36.817
being taken away. So you need to give people, and definitely at leadership level,

682
00:44:36.876 --> 00:44:40.416
and now sometimes I compare senior management with toddlers.

683
00:44:40.446 --> 00:44:43.266
So you need to attract their attention with colors.

684
00:44:43.326 --> 00:44:45.936
You need to keep it short because they don't have a long attention span.

685
00:44:46.206 --> 00:44:48.427
But you also need to give them a candy from time to time.

686
00:44:48.846 --> 00:44:50.976
And if you take away one candy, you give them another candy.

687
00:44:52.146 --> 00:44:55.927
So if you stop one of their projects, they should get something in return.

688
00:44:55.986 --> 00:44:59.677
Not necessarily, well, hopefully not another project, but a reward.

689
00:44:59.826 --> 00:45:02.677
Like you do this for the good of the organization.

690
00:45:02.736 --> 00:45:03.636
You are the hero in this-

691
00:45:03.996 --> 00:45:04.806
My badge. Give me a badge.

692
00:45:04.836 --> 00:45:10.716
Yeah, exactly. You're the hero. Also leaders

693
00:45:11.677 --> 00:45:15.576
are people, and people have emotions, and they are not rational.

694
00:45:15.726 --> 00:45:20.646
I think that's one of the main lessons that I learned in my career, that people are

695
00:45:20.677 --> 00:45:22.596
not rational, and probably I'm also not rational.

696
00:45:23.196 --> 00:45:24.306
So the

697
00:45:25.626 --> 00:45:27.156
playing on the emotional level,

698
00:45:28.927 --> 00:45:34.866
not taking anything away without giving something back, that helps

699
00:45:34.927 --> 00:45:37.567
in at least getting some things off the list.

700
00:45:38.598 --> 00:45:42.828
And just before we go to Alex, when you say giving something back, what works for

701
00:45:42.858 --> 00:45:46.548
you well, apart from a badge and candy?

702
00:45:46.818 --> 00:45:46.938
What

703
00:45:48.768 --> 00:45:52.098
are good levers that you as a PML or project consultant could bring?

704
00:45:53.748 --> 00:45:58.458
So as a consultant, my hands are tied, of course, easily no accountability.

705
00:45:58.758 --> 00:46:02.178
No, but I typically want to work on this.

706
00:46:04.968 --> 00:46:06.588
If somebody gives a project up-

707
00:46:07.308 --> 00:46:07.518
Mm-hmm

708
00:46:07.518 --> 00:46:12.318
... one of their other projects, usually the leadership team, all of them have

709
00:46:12.378 --> 00:46:13.758
several projects in the list-

710
00:46:13.908 --> 00:46:14.148
Mm

711
00:46:14.148 --> 00:46:19.578
... that they sponsor. So you can't kill all the projects of just one guy,

712
00:46:20.058 --> 00:46:25.968
because then nobody's happy. But you're killing projects for

713
00:46:25.998 --> 00:46:31.788
a reason. Not to have the list shorter, but to have the others delivered faster,

714
00:46:32.058 --> 00:46:32.508
better.

715
00:46:34.248 --> 00:46:38.238
Yeah, and that could be a promise. So making sure that

716
00:46:39.498 --> 00:46:43.218
if you're taking a project away from someone, one of the other projects should

717
00:46:43.788 --> 00:46:49.548
somehow benefit. And not only from that project, but everybody gives something for

718
00:46:49.578 --> 00:46:54.768
the whole of the organization. So it's the badge or the symbolic recognition you

719
00:46:54.918 --> 00:46:55.038
are-

720
00:46:55.398 --> 00:46:55.458
Yeah

721
00:46:55.458 --> 00:47:00.318
... helping the organization move forward, but also we give you something you asked

722
00:47:00.378 --> 00:47:04.338
for faster. And that's possible because we don't do the other things.

723
00:47:04.878 --> 00:47:05.118
Mm-hmm.

724
00:47:06.768 --> 00:47:11.418
And yeah, I mean, I would just chip in here that we get very positive feedback when

725
00:47:11.478 --> 00:47:13.518
people feel that the system is fair.

726
00:47:14.478 --> 00:47:19.098
So it's a sense of people will accept sacrifice as long as they believe it's

727
00:47:19.818 --> 00:47:23.208
rational and fair, and they're not just suffering because the guy in the next door

728
00:47:23.268 --> 00:47:28.279
office has somehow pulled a fast one, stolen all their team, and he'll get the

729
00:47:28.938 --> 00:47:30.018
flowers at the end of the year

730
00:47:31.458 --> 00:47:33.048
because he's stolen their resource.

731
00:47:33.738 --> 00:47:35.478
I feel my approach is more aggressive, I think.

732
00:47:37.428 --> 00:47:38.838
Well, that does not surprise me, Alex.

733
00:47:39.048 --> 00:47:42.348
Yeah. I think it's more around, I think the half problem is people focusing on my

734
00:47:42.408 --> 00:47:45.168
outcomes or your outcomes or his outcomes or her outcomes.

735
00:47:45.708 --> 00:47:48.798
The idea is what the business outcomes looks like, is getting them agreed with the

736
00:47:48.858 --> 00:47:52.578
executive and getting that, because at the end of the day, nobody's taking the work

737
00:47:52.608 --> 00:47:56.298
home. At the end of the day, the outcomes are for the business, making sure we

738
00:47:56.358 --> 00:47:57.978
align those outcomes together as a team.

739
00:47:59.328 --> 00:48:02.748
And some companies, with the insurance company, as I mentioned before, the half

740
00:48:02.808 --> 00:48:06.588
problem they had is those outcomes are delivering their own outcomes are linked to

741
00:48:06.648 --> 00:48:10.638
this bonus, for example. So they have to protect them, and that's where the battle

742
00:48:10.668 --> 00:48:15.438
comes in. In those kind of situations, I usually create shared objectives between

743
00:48:15.468 --> 00:48:17.988
the executives so that take that pressure away.

744
00:48:19.818 --> 00:48:23.328
In some extreme cases, what I've done is I work with the executives to align their

745
00:48:23.808 --> 00:48:28.308
objectives and their bonuses to those initiated shared objectives.

746
00:48:28.428 --> 00:48:30.558
So they don't achieve those shared objectives, they don't get a bonus.

747
00:48:30.738 --> 00:48:34.128
That's an extreme case. But that created that kind of mindset, I think, because

748
00:48:34.158 --> 00:48:35.118
you're trying to change the mindset.

749
00:48:35.148 --> 00:48:38.628
Because over time, you want to create a culture and mindset where people are

750
00:48:38.688 --> 00:48:43.998
thinking as a business outcome rather than, "Oh, it's my outcome." And that if once

751
00:48:44.029 --> 00:48:47.779
that culture is cultivated, everything else becomes slightly easier because you're

752
00:48:47.808 --> 00:48:48.828
working and helping each other.

753
00:48:49.668 --> 00:48:51.529
So Alex, let me just dig on that a little bit, right?

754
00:48:51.618 --> 00:48:56.238
Because some people on this call will be probably sitting there thinking, "Are you

755
00:48:56.328 --> 00:49:01.758
crazy? How on earth am I going to get everyone to buy into changing executive

756
00:49:01.848 --> 00:49:07.218
compensation just so my projects can get done?" So how do you

757
00:49:07.848 --> 00:49:10.728
even begin to have that conversation with the business?

758
00:49:12.108 --> 00:49:16.848
So it comes down to, so I think in that example for that company, we do the

759
00:49:17.118 --> 00:49:20.538
business objective settings, part of the business planning.

760
00:49:21.738 --> 00:49:26.598
We talked about we have to do the mapping around, I think Suzanne mentioned about

761
00:49:26.628 --> 00:49:29.658
speaking to people. So one of the things I've done was the diagnostics to say,

762
00:49:29.868 --> 00:49:33.888
"Where are the actual root causes coming from in the business?" And one of the

763
00:49:33.949 --> 00:49:36.918
biggest root causes came through, and we had to present back to the executives,

764
00:49:36.978 --> 00:49:38.928
say, "It's because you guys don't work with each other.

765
00:49:39.438 --> 00:49:40.758
You just fight with each other like kids.

766
00:49:40.818 --> 00:49:44.148
You don't speak to each other, you don't work with each other." And we played it

767
00:49:44.208 --> 00:49:46.758
back, "The objectives you have is none of them are shared objectives.

768
00:49:46.878 --> 00:49:52.248
All of them is aligned to either ops or business, let's say a CCO or commercial

769
00:49:52.308 --> 00:49:54.348
side, but there's no shared objective.

770
00:49:54.529 --> 00:49:59.298
So how do you expect to deliver the outcomes which are actually shared outcome at

771
00:49:59.328 --> 00:50:02.898
the end of the day?" Because if you think about the P&L piece, Stuart and me talked

772
00:50:02.928 --> 00:50:06.708
about, there's a shared objective we're trying to get to, but your objectives on

773
00:50:06.738 --> 00:50:08.298
the top level are separated.

774
00:50:10.398 --> 00:50:14.508
And that's where this needs to... Where I started with them is their diagnostic

775
00:50:14.568 --> 00:50:17.928
piece by playing a bit back with them. But then there's softer touches as well.

776
00:50:18.168 --> 00:50:19.578
What's in it for them as a business?

777
00:50:20.088 --> 00:50:24.858
So for them piece, not just saying, "You need to do this, and you won't get paid

778
00:50:24.918 --> 00:50:28.488
your bonuses for next year," but what's in it for them, for the business?

779
00:50:28.878 --> 00:50:34.068
And I was working for, I think it was in 2019, for a train company.

780
00:50:35.029 --> 00:50:40.848
And during that time when I started the job with them, the company was just focused

781
00:50:40.878 --> 00:50:44.898
was about spending money. It's a government-owned company, so the idea was to spend

782
00:50:44.928 --> 00:50:47.208
the money, then focus on benefits.

783
00:50:47.298 --> 00:50:50.088
The starting point when I went in as a benefit, they said they looked at me and

784
00:50:50.118 --> 00:50:52.248
laughed and they showed me where the door is.

785
00:50:54.498 --> 00:50:56.029
So it was a challenge to start with.

786
00:50:56.088 --> 00:50:59.058
I think people are saying, "We don't deliver benefits. We are a train company.

787
00:51:00.199 --> 00:51:04.428
We serve our people." But then you do deliver benefits because it's taxpayers money

788
00:51:04.458 --> 00:51:07.248
at the end of the day. So I have to create that language in people saying, "Look,

789
00:51:07.368 --> 00:51:08.748
it's not our money, it's taxpayers".

790
00:51:10.008 --> 00:51:10.818
If it's your own money,

791
00:51:12.048 --> 00:51:15.709
would you be investing this way? And then we started seeing the objectives.

792
00:51:15.768 --> 00:51:19.848
None of them aligned to those object, none of them aligned to those, any key

793
00:51:19.908 --> 00:51:22.579
benefits for our customers we're delivering or taxpayers.

794
00:51:23.598 --> 00:51:26.209
So those are the gaps I start proving and showing to them.

795
00:51:26.239 --> 00:51:29.718
It's taken longer, but that created that baseline I wanted.

796
00:51:29.929 --> 00:51:34.818
Because without that mindset and culture, everything else, otherwise, you keep

797
00:51:34.908 --> 00:51:38.418
reacting all the time. You're just putting more layer on top of layers and more

798
00:51:38.478 --> 00:51:41.808
layers because portfolio management is the key part of the whole thing.

799
00:51:41.959 --> 00:51:45.348
Unless you fix that cycle, the project management cycle is always going to be

800
00:51:45.378 --> 00:51:45.829
reacting.

801
00:51:47.388 --> 00:51:51.648
So hence the reason that piece is so important because prioritization, as we know

802
00:51:51.709 --> 00:51:55.158
with EHP and everything else, is a collaborative way of working.

803
00:51:56.358 --> 00:51:59.989
People need to have a shared understanding and shared mindset, and if they don't

804
00:52:00.348 --> 00:52:02.179
participate in those things, it's not going to work.

805
00:52:02.209 --> 00:52:03.888
So you have to get the executive aligned.

806
00:52:05.987 --> 00:52:11.838
And just with relating to things like having too many projects and

807
00:52:12.378 --> 00:52:17.088
the importance then of working together to solve that situation, in your

808
00:52:17.148 --> 00:52:23.058
experience, looking at it from the executive's point of view in, do you think they

809
00:52:23.088 --> 00:52:28.368
see that challenge? When they ask for another project, do you think they understand

810
00:52:28.429 --> 00:52:31.368
that they're stopping the productivity elsewhere?

811
00:52:31.908 --> 00:52:35.898
Or is this simply they don't really think about it and it's someone else's job?

812
00:52:36.888 --> 00:52:38.838
I think there's two way of thinking.

813
00:52:38.898 --> 00:52:42.978
I think I've been so far in this conversation, I've been pointing about executives,

814
00:52:43.008 --> 00:52:46.608
how bad they are. But I think there's two way of looking at it because most of the

815
00:52:46.608 --> 00:52:51.168
time I've seen in my experience is the people in the PML, project management,

816
00:52:51.258 --> 00:52:54.468
portfolio management, transformation, depending, doesn't matter what department

817
00:52:54.528 --> 00:52:57.378
you're in, they don't speak the business language.

818
00:52:58.908 --> 00:53:02.628
So for example, there's a technician coming in my house and telling me all the

819
00:53:02.688 --> 00:53:05.929
wires, and this is all I want to know is how are you going to fix it?

820
00:53:07.878 --> 00:53:11.118
So that's what the executive care about is the outcomes. What are you here for?

821
00:53:11.179 --> 00:53:14.088
What are we trying to deliver? And if you talk about the whole storyline and every

822
00:53:14.118 --> 00:53:16.818
single thing, they switch off, and that's where you don't get the buy-in.

823
00:53:17.838 --> 00:53:19.128
So it's the language is a key thing.

824
00:53:19.188 --> 00:53:25.068
So it's not all the problems around executive not doing their job, it's us as

825
00:53:25.098 --> 00:53:28.128
well as a team, as a PMO, we need to be thinking about we need to be more outcome

826
00:53:28.188 --> 00:53:33.168
focused, think about what our stakeholder needs versus let's tell them everything.

827
00:53:34.429 --> 00:53:34.579
Yeah.

828
00:53:35.388 --> 00:53:39.048
So that's why insight is different from reporting. Report is everything.

829
00:53:39.288 --> 00:53:43.308
Insight is what is telling me. So, so what? So that's my opinion then.

830
00:53:43.758 --> 00:53:49.518
And linked to that is of course, the question from Guy earlier, you need to be

831
00:53:49.579 --> 00:53:51.408
there for the project community as well.

832
00:53:51.888 --> 00:53:56.808
You need to be a support for that project community in order to gain their trust,

833
00:53:56.929 --> 00:54:00.528
in order to have the information that you can relay to your senior leadership.

834
00:54:00.829 --> 00:54:05.179
Because if you don't, if people are hiding stuff from you because you are policing

835
00:54:05.239 --> 00:54:09.949
them, "Do it like this, don't do it like that," if they don't trust you, they won't

836
00:54:10.218 --> 00:54:14.989
tell you the truth, and you will be running around with false information, and you

837
00:54:15.048 --> 00:54:18.498
will reassure leadership that everything's possible without it actually being

838
00:54:18.528 --> 00:54:23.179
possible in the back end. So you need to be the friend, critical friend of the

839
00:54:23.209 --> 00:54:26.838
project community in order to be a good support for your leadership.

840
00:54:28.038 --> 00:54:28.098
Yeah.

841
00:54:28.158 --> 00:54:31.758
I think, like I said, Sam, I think just to add to that point, every single layer in

842
00:54:31.818 --> 00:54:33.858
the business cares about what's in it for them.

843
00:54:34.638 --> 00:54:37.788
Project management community, in my experience, care about I need to get my

844
00:54:37.818 --> 00:54:42.558
delivery done on time, cost, and quality. I don't care about everything else.

845
00:54:42.798 --> 00:54:47.478
I don't like governance. I want to get my s**t done So as a PMO, how can we help

846
00:54:47.508 --> 00:54:48.978
them? By making the governance lean.

847
00:54:49.548 --> 00:54:52.308
How can we make sure that we getting those decisions done quicker?

848
00:54:52.398 --> 00:54:54.228
By making sure we escalate them at the right time.

849
00:54:55.158 --> 00:54:58.368
PMO should be the voice for the project management, not a police.

850
00:54:58.908 --> 00:55:02.658
That's how I see the PMO to be. And same with executive.

851
00:55:02.688 --> 00:55:05.598
As I mentioned, executives, their view of them is, "I want to see what's happening

852
00:55:05.628 --> 00:55:07.278
in the portfolio. I want to make decisions.

853
00:55:07.548 --> 00:55:11.718
I want to be standing behind the data to say, 'Yes, I believe in this data.

854
00:55:11.748 --> 00:55:16.338
It's not garbage.'" And from the PMO point of view, their view of them is, "We need

855
00:55:16.368 --> 00:55:19.429
information. We need data coming from both sides.

856
00:55:19.579 --> 00:55:21.618
We need to understand from executives what they want from us.

857
00:55:21.829 --> 00:55:24.768
We need to understand from project management to give us the data to be able to

858
00:55:24.798 --> 00:55:30.288
produce these reports or insights." So it's, again, tapping on each of the layers

859
00:55:30.318 --> 00:55:35.179
and understanding what is in it for them will help solve half the problem, because

860
00:55:35.209 --> 00:55:38.538
that's the biggest pain points people always don't recognize.

861
00:55:39.888 --> 00:55:44.028
Very good. Now, gentlemen, we have, I think, one to two minutes left before we hit

862
00:55:44.058 --> 00:55:45.348
the end of the hour. So,

863
00:55:46.579 --> 00:55:51.558
firstly, thank you very much for your time and for what I hope the folks listening

864
00:55:51.588 --> 00:55:53.868
today found is a really positive, interesting debate.

865
00:55:55.038 --> 00:56:00.528
What I'll ask to conclude with, maybe each of you could give us 30 seconds on

866
00:56:01.218 --> 00:56:04.788
how you and your services and your support could help the group here today.

867
00:56:05.538 --> 00:56:10.278
What can they do? They've listened, they've nodded. What can you do to help them?

868
00:56:10.938 --> 00:56:12.199
And we'll start with Stijn.

869
00:56:14.239 --> 00:56:19.848
Yeah. My service catalog is focused on the PMO

870
00:56:20.209 --> 00:56:23.598
service catalog. So I build PMOs

871
00:56:25.068 --> 00:56:28.398
as an outcome-focused organization, as an organizational unit.

872
00:56:28.518 --> 00:56:34.128
I'm not a builder, I'm an architect, so I help you build your PMO,

873
00:56:34.699 --> 00:56:40.338
focusing on the one hand on the portfolio prioritization, getting a

874
00:56:40.398 --> 00:56:44.868
system in place to prioritize system, a way of prioritizing in place, and

875
00:56:45.108 --> 00:56:50.658
methodologically supporting your delivery, making delivery lean and

876
00:56:50.959 --> 00:56:52.068
controlled. That's-

877
00:56:52.278 --> 00:56:55.699
Brilliant. Alex, what can you bring to the party, my friend?

878
00:56:56.568 --> 00:56:59.148
I can do magic tricks. I can play ...

879
00:57:00.168 --> 00:57:02.268
I'm a mature guitarist at this point, learning from Stijn.

880
00:57:04.278 --> 00:57:07.278
Well, I think we can do that tattoo halfway up his arm. Wow.

881
00:57:08.778 --> 00:57:12.199
Thanks for that insight. But I think we've got a lot of resources.

882
00:57:12.288 --> 00:57:16.429
If you go into Global Transformation Group or PMO Strategies, we have a lot of free

883
00:57:16.489 --> 00:57:20.808
resources available. You can take health assessment to give you a baseline of where

884
00:57:20.868 --> 00:57:24.408
you are right now, which we can use with the executives to take, saying, "Look,

885
00:57:25.038 --> 00:57:28.608
this is where the pain points are." Sometimes, doing sort of maturity assessment

886
00:57:28.638 --> 00:57:33.258
really helps. It does play a role. And again, I'm available for a conversation.

887
00:57:33.318 --> 00:57:36.468
You can reach out to me on LinkedIn or to me, Laura, we're here to help.

888
00:57:36.528 --> 00:57:37.848
Like I said, be part of one big community.

889
00:57:37.908 --> 00:57:40.968
If you have any questions, you're stuck, reach out to us.

890
00:57:41.388 --> 00:57:45.378
We do help people with case for change, we call them, which is how do we help you

891
00:57:46.098 --> 00:57:49.548
get your executive thinking the way you're thinking. So we call it case for change.

892
00:57:50.989 --> 00:57:53.329
And we're giving away some free resources on case for change.

893
00:57:53.449 --> 00:57:57.438
So, reach out to our website. There's a survey link you can click on, and then we

894
00:57:57.468 --> 00:57:58.728
can get in touch with you.

895
00:57:59.838 --> 00:58:04.278
Brilliant. And Stuart, last but not least, what can TransparentChoice do to help

896
00:58:04.308 --> 00:58:05.298
folks who are listening today?

897
00:58:05.748 --> 00:58:11.658
Brilliant. So we're a software company, and we provide that portfolio management

898
00:58:11.718 --> 00:58:16.489
software that helps capture what are the goals of the organization, what are the

899
00:58:16.518 --> 00:58:21.258
goals in this portfolio, and then to prioritize those projects,

900
00:58:21.978 --> 00:58:24.468
optimize the portfolio in light of your

901
00:58:25.878 --> 00:58:30.679
constrained resources, and turn that into a delivery roadmap using a bunch of

902
00:58:31.068 --> 00:58:35.298
really cool algorithms that we've developed that can run tens of thousands of

903
00:58:35.358 --> 00:58:38.478
scenarios in two seconds. Super, super cool.

904
00:58:39.468 --> 00:58:44.028
So if you want to figure out if everything the guys have been talking about today

905
00:58:44.058 --> 00:58:48.348
has resonated, come have a chat with us, and we'll show you how the software can

906
00:58:48.528 --> 00:58:51.588
support that process and make it faster, better,

907
00:58:53.898 --> 00:58:54.829
and so on. But I think-

908
00:58:54.918 --> 00:58:59.298
Just to add to your point, just to say, from my experience, being on the ground,

909
00:58:59.898 --> 00:59:04.308
doing prioritization on Excel, on Post-it notes, doing a portfolio management, I

910
00:59:04.338 --> 00:59:09.829
can tell you it's faster with TransparentChoice. It's three or four times faster.

911
00:59:10.068 --> 00:59:14.358
Maybe more, actually. Because I remember we used to say, "Oh, how long it takes to

912
00:59:14.388 --> 00:59:18.498
fix prioritization?" We said, "At least a year." And now with working with

913
00:59:18.528 --> 00:59:22.848
TransparentChoice, I think we can do this within 90 days to set it up, getting it

914
00:59:22.878 --> 00:59:26.598
ready. So it has made a massive difference in the organization. Yeah.

915
00:59:26.628 --> 00:59:31.158
Fantastic. You obviously heard a little bit about what we could do in terms of

916
00:59:31.218 --> 00:59:36.318
services. If you're not ready for that, as a minimum, do make sure you're following

917
00:59:36.378 --> 00:59:41.058
us on LinkedIn. And with that, you'll tap into the community.

918
00:59:41.329 --> 00:59:41.538
Yeah.

919
00:59:41.598 --> 00:59:45.528
Because frankly, if you like the way that these guys articulate it,

920
00:59:47.628 --> 00:59:52.848
join us, contribute, be part of that journey, and you'll find that the support is

921
00:59:52.878 --> 00:59:56.538
there for the moment when you do feel ready to activate.

922
00:59:56.868 --> 00:59:58.908
And just a reminder, you're not alone.

923
00:59:59.358 --> 01:00:02.388
You're certainly not unique in facing this challenge, and you don't need to

924
01:00:02.418 --> 01:00:06.679
reinvent the wheel to help solve it when you feel ready to make that commitment.

925
01:00:07.338 --> 01:00:12.138
And Dan, just last one. I keep forgetting. Stuart and I are going to be in the US.

926
01:00:12.528 --> 01:00:18.138
If anyone over here from US right now, we're going to be in Detroit from 21st

927
01:00:18.228 --> 01:00:19.459
till 23rd.

928
01:00:20.688 --> 01:00:22.728
Stuart, you're doing a presentation. I'll be in a workshop.

929
01:00:22.788 --> 01:00:25.968
Come and find us, grab a coffee, have a chat.

930
01:00:26.658 --> 01:00:28.699
We'll be there for three days, so please do.

931
01:00:28.758 --> 01:00:32.838
Yeah, so if you're in Detroit, once you get the email, I think a lady called Preeti

932
01:00:32.868 --> 01:00:34.758
will send it normally from TransparentChoice.

933
01:00:35.239 --> 01:00:38.329
Just let Preeti know you're there, and she'll hook you up with Stuart

934
01:00:40.608 --> 01:00:45.618
to meet in person and see how he and Alex and Stijn can help you.

935
01:00:46.579 --> 01:00:48.858
Brilliant. Thank you very much, everyone.

936
01:00:48.918 --> 01:00:50.568
Have a good rest of the day wherever you are in the world.

937
01:00:50.628 --> 01:00:54.348
Thank you very much for our guests for joining us and giving us a great

938
01:00:54.768 --> 01:00:55.308
conversation.